Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[John Reese]

By then we will have more jf17 and J31

JF-17 is Lightweight Fighter My dear
Seriously India Have over 300+ Sukhoi MKI alone I am not even counting Mig-29 or M2K

J-31 is will not come before 2025 Its confirmed by Mods here Engines and radars are Not Ready yet

 

[nang2]

Again and again, I misread PAK FA as some new fighter jet for Pakistan.

 

[Akasa]

... joint venture the ULA...

Ah, yes, a throwback to the days when Boeing and Lockheed were at each other's throats over the EELV tender, only to have the US Justice Department force the two to shake hands following Boeing's theft scandal and form, voila, the ULA.

 

[ohmrlobalobayeh]

The engine is what makes the plane. If you manufacture the J-20 with the AL-31FN, it will just be a low observable Flanker. It won't be fully stealthy, it won't supercruise efficiently, its avionics will be restricted to what the Flanker carries, the directed energy weapons will have to be powered from external sources etc. You can find out many things about the jet simply based on the engine it's on.

J-20 Stage 1 - AL-31FN... generic export version.

Su-30MKI - AL-31FP... more advanced than the AL-31F/FN.
Su-35 - AL-41F1S, 117S, export grade... modified AL-31F.
PAK FA Stage 1 - AL-41F, 117, non-export grade, 5th gen engine... heavily modified from the AL-31F.
PAK FA Stage 2 - Type 30 - 5th gen engine + variable cycle, very high TWR(greater than 12), significantly increased electricity generation for directed energy weapons and other uses and so on. 2018-19.

J-20 definitive version(?) Stage 2 - WS-15(?). If it is as capable as the Type 30 and flies around the same time as the PAK FA Stage 2, then it will mature around the same time as the FGFA will. So figure out when the WS-15 become operationally available, then we can talk about the J-20. It has to lose the old Russian export grade engines first. You can't put the F-16's engine on the F-22 and call the F-22 5th gen.

The engine is the most effective way to surmise how capable the jet is. So it is nowhere as simplistic as you assume it to be.

And my earlier post was in favour of the Chinese, so I don't know what's your problem.

just 1 simple question:

Then is Pak-FA being produced yet?

JF-17 is Lightweight Fighter My dear
Seriously India Have over 300+ Sukhoi MKI alone I am not even counting Mig-29 or M2K

J-31 is will not come before 2025 Its confirmed by Mods here Engines and radars are Not Ready yet

So is Tejas a lightweight fighter(Su30 is a mediumweight fighter). by https://www.google.com.sg/webhp?ie=UTF-8&rct=j#q=cherrypick the JF-17 vs the Su30, u r comparing apples with oranges? No? Im atonished y u didnt compare the F-16(pakistan) vs the Su30(india) instead. That's the same as picking a fight with a smaller opponent instead of the big 1.

How do u know that J-31 will not come b4 2025 when not 1, but 2 prototypes have already been constructed.

has any PAK-FA aka FGFA aka PMF prototypes been constructed? or at least even a technology demonstrator? No?

American companies are Private companies

Whereas Chinese Military Industrial Complex is directly governed by the Chinese Govt

There might be smaller companies for Administrative convenience and
creating a competitive environment

But they work in a seamless manner

Like in India DRDO ; HAL ; OFB are all Government Organistions

Atually, what's your end statement(the point u r trying to bring)?

 

[randomradio]

just 1 simple question:

Then is Pak-FA being produced yet?

A state contract will be signed in a few months. First delivery expected in 2018.

 

[ohmrlobalobayeh]

It's obviously false. The Chinese make export grade weapons with export grade performance. They are like the Soviets, they make one for themselves and make a monkey model for export. The Chinese main weapon is the PL-12.

And there are many air to air weapons available and being developed for the PAK FA. For example, the K-77M has a range of 220Km, carries GaN AESA seekers and has dual pulse motors. It's supposed to enter production this year. Even the PL-12 doesn't compare, it's more in the R-VV SD class. And the K-77M is a stop gap before the PAK FA's main medium range weapon is developed.

isnt what u said the norm instead of being the exception? No country would share their full technology with another. The 1 that is being shared would always be a watered-down version. Same goes for the Pak-FA aka FGFA aka PMF. It's naive to think that the Russians will share 'full' ToT with India on it.

A state contract will be signed in a few months. First delivery expected in 2018.

then what do u mean by:

PAK FA is ready for production with these technologies.

Otoh, Northrop recently won the contract to develop digital radars.
https://globenewswire.com/news-rele...tronically-Scanned-Array-AESA-Technology.html

Meaning, the F-22 and F-35 are still years away from these technologies.

Anyway, this is irrelevant to India because we have chosen optical radars, that's a step ahead. So no GaN for us, that will be obsolete too, in about 3-5 years. So this radar, when ready, won't just detect the F-22 and the F-35, but also detect a pimple on the pilot's face from hundreds of kilometres away.



How is the Pak-Fa ready for production when there isnt even a contract being signed.

Then you talk about the GaN radars becoming obsolete just because u think the PAK-FA isnt gonna use it(thereby implying that the other planes in oepration or production using GaN technology are thus becoming obsolete).

Im confused.

 

[nang2]

A state contract will be signed in a few months. First delivery expected in 2018.

One thing I have learned after joining this forum is that any sentences with future or future perfect tense, if from Indian sources, should be taken in with decent mount of salt.

 

[randomradio]

isnt what u said the norm instead of being the exception? No country would share their full technology with another. The 1 that is being shared would always be a watered-down version. Same goes for the Pak-FA aka FGFA aka PMF. It's naive to think that the Russians will share 'full' ToT with India on it.

We are not sure how much tech will be transferred. Right now, this is what they are saying.
http://indiandefencenewz.in/for-onl...ated-technology-of-a-5th-gen-stealth-fighter/

“From a preliminary document that was barely two dozen pages, we have agreed on a 650 page detailed plan that specifies exactly what all will be shared,” an unidentified Indian defense official told The Economic Times.

The aircraft itself will undergo many advancements, similar to the Brahmos which has progressed from a 3T/mach 3.2 missile to a 1.5T/mach 3.5 missile to a mach 5.5 missile to a mach 9 missile. So the PAK FA is a pretty big project.

then what do u mean by:

PAK FA is ready for production with these technologies.

Otoh, Northrop recently won the contract to develop digital radars.
https://globenewswire.com/news-rele...tronically-Scanned-Array-AESA-Technology.html

Meaning, the F-22 and F-35 are still years away from these technologies.

Anyway, this is irrelevant to India because we have chosen optical radars, that's a step ahead. So no GaN for us, that will be obsolete too, in about 3-5 years. So this radar, when ready, won't just detect the F-22 and the F-35, but also detect a pimple on the pilot's face from hundreds of kilometres away.



How is the Pak-Fa ready for production when there isnt even a contract being signed.

It's a bit complex to explain because development of the PAK FA is still far from complete. For example, the first 6 prototypes are of the Stage 1, the next 5 are Stage 2. So development will continue as is, while Stage 1 LRIP will begin next year.

If you think about it, the aircraft will 'start' production in 2017 officially and be 'delivered' in 2018. There's no way any aircraft can be manufactured from the ground up in just 1 year. So it is possibly referring to 'assembly will start in 2017' which means production started a long time ago.

But we are talking about electronics, and electronics have their own manufacturing cycle which is much faster.

Then you talk about the GaN radars becoming obsolete just because u think the PAK-FA isnt gonna use it(thereby implying that the other planes in oepration or production using GaN technology are thus becoming obsolete).

Im confused.

Yeah, pretty much it. You can't go up against optical hardware with digital hardware, let alone analogue hardware on the F-22 and the F-35. For example, the analogue AESA or even the digital AESA works only up to a few GHz, like in the X band or the L band, whereas the optical radar being made works in the RF spectrum from 1Hz all the way to 100GHz.

One thing I have learned after joining this forum is that any sentences with future or future perfect tense, if from Indian sources, should be taken in with decent mount of salt.

It's not from Indian sources.

 

[ohmrlobalobayeh]

We are not sure how much tech will be transferred. Right now, this is what they are saying.
http://indiandefencenewz.in/for-onl...ated-technology-of-a-5th-gen-stealth-fighter/


The aircraft itself will undergo many advancements, similar to the Brahmos which has progressed from a 3T/mach 3.2 missile to a 1.5T/mach 3.5 missile to a mach 5.5 missile to a mach 9 missile. So the PAK FA is a pretty big project.



It's a bit complex to explain because development of the PAK FA is still far from complete. For example, the first 6 prototypes are of the Stage 1, the next 5 are Stage 2. So development will continue as is, while Stage 1 LRIP will begin next year.

If you think about it, the aircraft will 'start' production in 2017 officially and be 'delivered' in 2018. There's no way any aircraft can be manufactured from the ground up in just 1 year. So it is possibly referring to 'assembly will start in 2017' which means production started a long time ago.

But we are talking about electronics, and electronics have their own manufacturing cycle which is much faster.



Yeah, pretty much it. You can't go up against optical hardware with digital hardware, let alone analogue hardware on the F-22 and the F-35. For example, the analogue AESA or even the digital AESA works only up to a few GHz, like in the X band or the L band, whereas the optical radar being made works in the RF spectrum from 1Hz all the way to 100GHz.



It's not from Indian sources.

1)U can predict when the planes will enter LRIP when no contracts has even been signed yet. I assume u have pretty good insider information.

2)i dun get it. gaN technology is a rather recent phenomenon for AeSA radars and fighter jets ard the world are all walking towards the direction of upgrading to GaN radars- yet here u r claiming that it's going to be obsolete.

 

[Ankit Kumar 002]

What waste to buy only 36 rafale jets.

1. 36 Is off the shelf purchase, which is to be followed by a way bigger second order for an Indian Line.

2. How is the 36, a " WASTE " ?

By then we will have more jf17 and J31

Good for you.

 

[randomradio]

1)U can predict when the planes will enter LRIP when no contracts has even been signed yet. I assume u have pretty good insider information.

It's a combination of insider info and open source. LRIP delivery is slated for 2018.

2)i dun get it. gaN technology is a rather recent phenomenon for AeSA radars and fighter jets ard the world are all walking towards the direction of upgrading to GaN radars- yet here u r claiming that it's going to be obsolete.

GaN will be relevant, but also obsolete depending on when photonics tech will come out and how long it will take. Because, let's face it, photonics will be expensive when it comes out first. The digital radar is ready for production in various countries, but the photonics radar isn't. The new radar will be available in Russia only after 2018.

So we will have to see how the program progresses. We may start off with the digital radar with GaN first, and then use the photonics radar on the twin seat PAK FA or a modernized PAK FA. Or jump straight away to the photonics radar if testing goes without flaws. This decision can be made only after 2018, that's at the end of the 4.5 year development period for this radar.

https://in.rbth.com/economics/defence/2016/01/20/new-radar-system-for-pak-fa-fighter_560689

The actual development cycle of the PAK FA Stage 2 and FGFA go right up to 2023, IOC of the engine is expected only in 2025. So there is enough time to make a decision. In the meantime, there is a plan to manufacture a few squadrons of the older PAK FA also, right after the LRIP is done.

Putin's visiting India in October for the BRICS summit followed by the India-Russia summit. Things should start moving then. So we are looking forward to the Rafale deal in the next few days and the FGFA deal after October 15th.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Please stick to Rafales here.

FGFA to here: https://defence.pk/threads/sukhoi-pak-fa-fgfa-updates-news-discussions.118201/

All F16/F18/F35/Gripen here: https://defence.pk/threads/make-in-...ents-updates-f16-f18-gripen-any-other.448850/

Other General IAF queries here: https://defence.pk/threads/indian-air-force-news-discussions.30328/

Regards,

+++

 

[bipi@342]

Please stick to Rafales here.

FGFA to here: https://defence.pk/threads/sukhoi-pak-fa-fgfa-updates-news-discussions.118201/

All F16/F18/F35/Gripen here: https://defence.pk/threads/make-in-...ents-updates-f16-f18-gripen-any-other.448850/

Other General IAF queries here: https://defence.pk/threads/indian-air-force-news-discussions.30328/

Regards,

+++

any updates from CCS meeting

 

[SUDIP]

it's cleared may be, but not sure, found only a piece of news.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-to-announcing-8-billion-euro-rafale-jet-deal

"The Cabinet Committee on Security, which includes the prime minister, defense, foreign and finance ministers, has cleared the deal worth 8 billion euros ($8.9 billion) for Rafale fighter jets, people with knowledge of the matter said. The deal is likely to be signed later this week in New Delhi by India’s Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar and his French counterpart Jean-Yves Le Drian, they said, asking not to be identified as the information isn’t public."

 

[Hellfire]

And that advantage will only get better with the Super 30 upgrade and the FGFA.
Plus, the geography is in our advantage because we can take off with full loads, the Chinese can't.

Eh, why not? Can you explain please?