Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[Mysticbuddy]

Two quick points

1. Rafale deal and MII is still on.. Simply bcz of the other things negotiated under the whole deal.
   • The Indian SSN program which now will be given more priority and p75I cancellation needs urgent tech help for noise reduction and lowering detection ability. It is true that design in mostly Indian, partially tech borrowed via Russian Consultancy and French DCNS.
   • Also more scorpene are cmg
   • AIP is also now DCNS as DRDO aip is stuck
   • The heavy water torpedo is again F21 for scorpenes as well as SSBN and in future SSNs as well
   • Many things more
2. USA will get certain deals surely. It's no secret that F16 price offerred is cheap as they wish to shift the line here. The F35 program is not now for India. As I have said earlier once LM finishes the Indian F16 order and Indian becomes the global MRO for F16s, the line gets upgraded for F35. It's true that LM has shown a presentation with price of flyaway less than $75 Mn down from $85Mn flyaway. But when we do add up the rest of the package details the cost is more than Rafales. Especially the post flying support and service costing part.

The consideration for USA jets will come bcz of a bigger bogie which you all know.

What India has wanted is instead of LM deal , they are keen for armed version of General Atomics aerial vehicles.

Now let's see how it fans out.

Access to them is more important than procuring them. That's how you build soft power.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

@PARIKRAMA @randomradio @Abingdonboy

We must see one more aspect when it comes to deals with USA

Right now US ego is hurt and US Pakistan relations are bad

so US is looking to MAKE a POINT ( Make them realise That USA is the most resourceful ally )
to our neighbours and also to China

So for us this is the Best time to get a great deal from the USA

 

[Dash]

I second @randomradio
On this. f35 is a strike platform something which USA has been impressing India to incorporate in its doctrine instead of considering just usual light medium heavy differentiation.

In fact what they offerred was

• Light - tejas /F16
• Medium - existing fleet
• Heavy MKI /FGFA
• Strike -F35

That's the new category and the number suggested was 150.

Of course, DM Sat through and listened but he knows it won't cut much ice as of now so he just ignored it.

This is interesting. Will tell u why. Gimmi some time

@PARIKRAMA @randomradio @Abingdonboy

We must see one more aspect when it comes to deals with USA

Right now US ego is hurt and US Pakistan relations are bad

so US is looking to MAKE a POINT ( Make them realise That USA is the most resourceful ally )
to our neighbours and also to China

So this is the Best time to get a great deal from the USA

US doesn't have ego. If it was there then there hadn't been a $800 Million package for Pakistan.

U need to study more

 

[randomradio]

The reason being strategic things are still thought with respect to only two names - Russia and Israel. That's how common mass.perception is build. On top last five years of sustained propaganda painted France as the devilish side.

But with last few years and the progression of Indo French relation things are far more strategic in nature than what meets the eye of common people.

That is why we see so hard efforts to showcase as French side to be uncompromising and looting types. Yet in business everyone negotiates.. And India is paying every penny and extracting much more in return. It's just that most things are kept away from sensationalism.

The problem is that since Dassault is under negotiations, they are not allowed to tell their side of the story by law. Occasionally, the DM comes out to clear some confusion and that's about it.

The constant attack on France from the anti-French lobby will obviously take hold of the mind of the average reader. This lack of information gets even people like @Picdelamirand-oil and @Taygibay confused.

This happens to Russia also, but the Russians don't care because they know very well that weapons purchases in India are made by ministers, not the media.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Will the June deadline for Rafale be kept or will it be extended

No idea as I was told DM is not yet signing things.

It seems he wishes to seek some tech bargaining in F21 HWT for Indian programs varunastra

The requirement is now much higher
18 HWT pee scorpene
6+3 = 9 scorpenes
So 162 torpedoes
Assume similar number for Arihant class so at least 18x4= 72
And add approx same numbers for 6SSN
18x6=108


So a ball park figure of 342 HWT required. Now F21 will meet majorly or entirely depending upon cost and technology provided to us. So I expect a little more haggling to be done here and there.

I am not optimistic for June at all

 

[randomradio]

No idea as I was told DM is not yet signing things.

It seems he wishes to seek some tech bargaining in F21 HWT for Indian programs varunastra

The requirement is now much higher
18 HWT pee scorpene
6+3 = 9 scorpenes
So 162 torpedoes
Assume similar number for Arihant class so at least 18x4= 72
And add approx same numbers for 6SSN
18x6=108


So a ball park figure of 342 HWT required. Now F21 will meet majorly or entirely depending upon cost and technology provided to us. So I expect a little more haggling to be done here and there.

I am not optimistic for June at all

Offtopic: I don't think Arihant and the SSNs will carry imported weapons. The requirement is for purely Indian tech. France will get in trouble if they provide weapons to India's strategic programs.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

US doesn't have ego. If it was there then there hadn't been a $800 Million package for Pakistan.

U need to study more

I know what am I talking about ; this 800 Million package is another thing

Overall US Pakistan relations are quite bad

And everything depends on what happens in Afghanistan

Any way let us not derail the topic

My point is that this is the best time for getting deals from USA

I am not optimistic for June at all

So a torpedo has now torpedoed the Rafale deal (pun intended)

 

[Abingdonboy]

Offtopic: I don't think Arihant and the SSNs will carry imported weapons. The requirement is for purely Indian tech. France will get in trouble if they provide weapons to India's strategic programs.

In Trouble with who?

 

[Mysticbuddy]

It has always been "a multirole fighter, but designed for air superiority". The FGFA is also called PMF or Perspective Multirole Fighter. Su-30MKI is also multirole.

Eurofighter was selected and then lost because it was more expensive than the Rafale.

The F-35 isn't multirole if you look at IAF definitions. It's a strike fighter.

I respect you as a person so please do not take the following personally.

Your first statement is hilarious as this would be the first in history as French were trying to make something else and it ending up becoming that and air superiority fighter as well. This was the sole contest between the French and the eurofighter consortium. French perceived the threat of su27 as just problem for all states and needed exports as well. They already had a flourishing mirage campaign. Whereas the other countries wanted a frontline / air superiority fighter. Edited so bad use of English. On iPhone

I know what PMF or PAK-FA is. The only thing that is working is T-50 and even Russia acknowledged the same. Pak-fa is the Russian version of the t50 concept. Currently it's su35 with a different skin. FGFA or PMF is still up in the air and it doesn't mean flying.

 

[Dash]

I know what am I talking about ; this 800 Million package is another thing

Overall US Pakistan relations are quite bad

And everything depends on what happens in Afghanistan

Any way let us not derail the topic

My point is that this is the best time for getting deals from USA




So a torpedo has now torpedoed the Rafale deal (pun intended)

Sometimes the best times become your worst nightmare.. Ask US and Pakistan

 

[Abingdonboy]

No idea as I was told DM is not yet signing things.

It seems he wishes to seek some tech bargaining in F21 HWT for Indian programs varunastra

The requirement is now much higher
18 HWT pee scorpene
6+3 = 9 scorpenes
So 162 torpedoes
Assume similar number for Arihant class so at least 18x4= 72
And add approx same numbers for 6SSN
18x6=108


So a ball park figure of 342 HWT required. Now F21 will meet majorly or entirely depending upon cost and technology provided to us. So I expect a little more haggling to be done here and there.

I am not optimistic for June at all

Yet another Parrikar curveball isn't it? He creates the problems (in this case the BS blacklisting) then wants to be praised for finding a solution?

How many deadlines has he failed to reach now? Before it was Jan then March then June and now that too is not going to be upheld. At some point he has to actually sign the damn deal otherwise all this haggling and game playing is meaningless.

I am losing my faith in this guy by the day, he talks a good talk but more often than not is found wanting in his performance.

 

[randomradio]

In Trouble with who?

NSG, NPT protocols. You are not supposed to assist another country in providing weapons to dedicated nuclear platforms.

 

[Mysticbuddy]

@PARIKRAMA @randomradio @Abingdonboy

We must see one more aspect when it comes to deals with USA

Right now US ego is hurt and US Pakistan relations are bad

so US is looking to MAKE a POINT ( Make them realise That USA is the most resourceful ally )
to our neighbours and also to China

So for us this is the Best time to get a great deal from the USA

Don't act like Pakistan... You need to be consistent not opportunist.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

Sometimes the best times become your worst nightmare.. Ask US and Pakistan

If you want to discuss this topic of US Pakistan relations and US India relations
-- Then please open another thread -- I dont want to discuss it here

I can suggest a title too " Will US India relations go the same way as US Pakistan relations "

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Offtopic: I don't think Arihant and the SSNs will carry imported weapons. The requirement is for purely Indian tech. France will get in trouble if they provide weapons to India's strategic programs.

Ya off topic.. But I will discuss one small Point and close

That's why varunastra.. But it's nt at the same league.

By the way 48 additional blackshark was requested by IN for Arihant project to MOD at one go with original order.

Unless varunastra is here or via tech help from F21 makers, we don't have a choice.. The need is 342 or say 350.. It's either our own or mix of own, imported or own and MII product..