Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[kaykay]

5 years from now,
no more migs except

mig29upg/k/kub ,upgraded jaguars , LCA , su 30mki, Rafales, few samples of pak fa.

ALH , rudra , ACH , mi 17v , chinook , Apache

Good 4th generation fighters.



Marginally is how much ?

Did we compromise on anything?

I don't think as everything except finances are already cleared and approved so no question of compromising what is approved already. Now how much is 'marginal' is yet to be seen. I think 8-9 Billion will be the cost( with 50% offset of course).

 

[sathya]

Since the deal for 36 fly aways are almost done for the last time...

Who gets to make it the India part ?

My order of preferences will be
1. Tata
2. HAL
3. Mahendra
4. Godrej
5. L&T
6. Reliance

Or a combination of these for modular building.

 

[[Bregs]]

France 'marginally' reduces Rafale price: Report

NEW DELHI: The French have "marginally" reduced the price of Rafale combat planes but India is seeking more and the multi-billion dollar deal could take at least another six weeks to be finalised, government sources said on Wednesday.

The price for 36 Rafales, as per the UPA tender, keeping the cost escalation and dollar rate in view, comes to over Rs 66,000 crore (around 9 billion Euros), they said.

This includes the cost involved in making changes that India has sought in the aircraft, including Israeli helmet-mounted display and some specific weaponry, among others.
"The effort is to bring down the price to around Euros 8 billion (over Rs 59,000 crore)," the sources said, adding that the actual price negotiations only started from January 21.

"They have come down from the original price as per the earlier tender of the UPA but we expect more," they said.

Asked about plane price being offered by the French now, they said it has been reduced "marginally".

Prime Minister Narendra Modi and French President Francois Hollande Modi had agreed to conclude an inter-governmental agreement for supply of the aircraft "on terms that would be better than conveyed by Dassault Aviation as part of a separate process underway", which was the MMRCA (medium multi-role combat aircraft) tender.
Another point under discussion is the payment of advance which India will have to make.

"At least 50 per cent advance will have to be made, including 15 per cent immediate payment," the sources said, adding that details on how the French government will stand guarantee was being worked out.
"Also, the document (inter-governmental agreement) will need legal vetting and clearance from the Cabinet Committee on Security," the sources said.

They also said that 50 per cent offset will apply to the deal. The French had initially not agreed to it but the roadblock was removed in August last year after Modi spoke to Hollande over phone.

Following the MoU signed on January 25 during Hollande's visit, Dassault Aviation, the manufacturer of Rafale, had said in a statement, "We are very pleased with this progress, and actively supporting French authorities in their efforts to finalize a complete agreement within the next four weeks."

They said the agreement will pave the way for the "conclusion of a contract" for the sale of 36 Rafale fighters to India.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

@PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy @Taygibay

https://twitter.com/x/status/692368516385751040

This coming from a journo with IBN7 TV.....

See if i remember correctly, the IBN7 Khabar carried the news that rafales are Rs 750 Crs for weapons included. So if a marginal drop of say 5-7% more happens than i guess we are looking at Rs 700-710 Crs weapons included. That would mean Euro 3.5 Bn versus earlier estimate i had shown above at Euro 4 Bn.

As i said above the other two components,
Customization = Euro 2 Bn
The infrastructure, support, services, spares and other categories under total cost of ownership are estimated at around Euro 5 Bn. This may go down at max by 10-20% to best estimate of Euro 4 Bn

These 2 heads is the main worry.
Unless we see a decrease in these 2 heads, the overall figure does not change much

So it comes down to Euro 9.5 Bn or Rs68400 Crs type +/-5% here and there reduction more.

As i said whats the customisation thats so much critical?

 

[kaykay]

^^ By above news, it appears that India is not compromising on any weapon and 'goodies'. Now in all probability Deal will be signed in ~9 Billion USD( 59000-60000 crore) with 50% offset.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Another point under discussion is the payment of advance which India will have to make.

"At least 50 per cent advance will have to be made, including 15 per cent immediate payment,

Bullet payment upto 50% against signing amount of 15% is being offered for quicker implementation, more discounts and offset implementation on time.

So these 2 points match..
So good source is giving some good infor at least partly..

 

[sathya]

So these 2 points match..
So good source is giving some good infor at least partly..

Here is my theory

France has already started building Rafales for IAF
With immediate 50% upfront payment we start to get Rafales under 24 months.

What's worth 2 billion customisation ?
- nuclear capability
- litening 4 pod
- Astra / nirbhay / bhramos NG / sudhrshan
- harpoon / CBU 97

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Harpoon
"The latest deal to be inked, worth around $170 million, is the one for 24 Harpoon Block-II anti-ship missiles to arm the maritime strike Jaguar fighters in IAF's combat fleet. "

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...rms-deals/articleshow/6601777.cms?referral=PM
++
This means the Anti Shipping roles will go to Rafales so at least 1 squadron would be closer to shore based base. Either in East coast overlooking Bay of Bengal or western coast overlooking Arabian Sea. Since numbers are limited i see 1 squadron using it or else, we may have to procure more form USA.

Now the same TOI article mentions that we have not signed CISMOA, LSA, BECA etc. yet we got 24 Harpoons. and now for whole fleet we are requesting customisation and paying for it.

Does it indicate we are getting more harpoons without all such agreements or it means we are signing it anyways?

+++

France has already started building Rafales for IAF
With immediate 50% upfront payment we start to get Rafales under 24 month

Thats a possibility but the higher % payment upfront may be for offset financing for the MII part too. Bcz if we are looking at a manufacturing line with a pvt sector, investment is needed for the complete setup

 

[Spectre]

As i said whats the customisation thats so much critical?

I doubt the full extent will be public but can speculate on the following

. Astra and certain other missiles some of which are not operational yet but all the same one time payment covers this.
. Access to the soft-ware for Avionics installation and modification
. Hard-wiring for strategic roles

The last two points are going to cost us a lot. The monetary cost is not for the hardware but for the access allowed

-Rafales will be uniquely Indian with no strings once these customizations are achieved.
-Eliminates possibility of external tampering via back-doors which is possible in case Indian internal conflict with French
-Allows for Rafales to be used in roles which are not explicitly stated
-The customization payment is not just for 36 but the future orders too
- It ties in with Make in India
- Local missiles will be cheaper to a large large extent.
- Airframes can be maintained independently once the spare and maintenance facilities are set up but we don't want to be dependant on ammunition in case of conflicts

 

[Tameem]

Can anybody confirm if this deal inclusive of Meteor BVR missile and AESA Radar? Giving the huge cost it should be...If its not then rest assured you people are really fvckd up by french.

 

[sathya]

Rafales being offensive platform would like to get ours LGB s (for sustaining in war)and CBU 97 bomb (taking out tank regiments) integrated
Nirbhay , bhramos for standoff targets

French cruise missiles for special targets.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

The customization payment is not just for 36 but the future orders too

The customization cost itself is estimated at close to Euro 2 Bn plus which includes systems/sub systems from Israel and is a one time cost for all future purchases at one go.

Yes both these points look logical for sure..

Allows for Rafales to be used in roles which are not explicitly stated

Yes thats also a good solid catch. Besides strategic role, if Harpoon customization or AshM customization is being done then we are looking at Rafale taking over the shore based patrol roles or Maritime Strike roles too.

Now that changes the whole playing field. Till now we have talked about Strategic, DPSA and TASA. A maritime strike role or Shore based patrolling roles over seas indicates the large number fleet

 

[kaykay]

Can anybody confirm if this deal inclusive of Meteor BVR missile and AESA Radar? Giving the huge cost it should be...If its not then rest assured you people are really fvckd up by french.

It will come with complete weapon and avionics package which includes Meteor and GaN AESA. Some Israeli components are to be added on Indian Rafales too as per Indian demand.

 

[sathya]

Can anybody confirm if this deal inclusive of Meteor BVR missile and AESA Radar? Giving the huge cost it should be...If its not then rest assured you people are really fvckd up by french.

AESA is a given
Meteor as soon as it is available I guess.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Can anybody confirm if this deal inclusive of Meteor BVR missile and AESA Radar? Giving the huge cost it should be...If its not then rest assured you people are really fvckd up by french.

RBE 2 AESA will be there Sir.
Meteor will be limited in numbers as we will look for Astra BVR integration and MICA IR

We may later get a additional meteor numbers based on specific needs.