Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[cerberus]

See this:

http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2016/01/idn-take-one-gulf-country-has-requested.html

This is what is confusing.

Do you Even Read what is Written they ASK for Evaluation only . Secondly Do you think Any Country Will Buy It Without FOC.So First Priority it should Get FOC from IAF.

The price of 11 billion is a rip off. Even at 7 billion it is very expensive.

Its better to just use the money for domestic production and RD.

In a country where micro loans can drastically influence a persons future, 11 billion dollars is like taking 10 dollars from every one in India and giving nothing in return (for the common man).

If I was Modi, I would just tell the French to fcuk off if they bring up 11 billion dollars.

Its 9 billion which 60,000 $ with 50 % offset

 

[Lonely Hermit]

What is Combat Payload LCA Its Light Weight Category Fighter with Combat Payload of 3700 KG.

Which Still in LALA Land DRDO Babus still Not Able to Deliver SP-2 Since Last year Come to Piratical World
Dear

What does combat load have to do with attrition rate are you stating in war these 36 rafale be more than enough for PAF and PLAAF. China is manufacturing 100's of J-10, J-11 and J-16 and other kind of flanker variant and you are pitting 36 rafales against such a threat. Victory in modern warfare is based on size of a country industrial base(ask the Germans when in ww2 their Tiger tank where overwhelmed by numerically superior T-34) LCAmk1a and LCAmk2 and SU30 are more than enough to tackle our current threat perception.

 

[cerberus]

For Fan boys If you Don't Know the Technical stuff Don't Try To be Expert Here Now Let me explain As Simple Term
Both Qatar and Egypt Paid Popping 5.9 billion $ and 7.2 Billion $ For Just 24 Aircraft without Offset or TOT grantee from Dassault

But In India Case India through IGA Get 36 aircraft with Full Weapons Package And Spare in 9.6 Billion $ with the guarantee of 50 % offset Value of the Amount Will be Invested into India Itself

So Actual Cost of the Deal is 9.6 Billion $ - 50% offset Amount = It Will Cost Us 4.8 Billion $ Lesst than Both Egypt And Qatar And So you Challenging Baniya Mind Here

Now You Say Why French Compromised Kid There Is Lot Other things France is Hatching Through MII(Make in India)
One of 13 agreements Sign Yesterday
Mahindra by forging a tie-up with Airbus to manufacture defence choppers as the government readies to place $10 billion worth of helicopter orders for reconnaissance, surveillance and naval utility.

Meanwhile other Deals on Cards

http://www.indiatimes.com/news/indi...uce-makeinindia-military-choppers-249820.html
http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/mahi...licopters-among-16-india-france-deals-1269623

Few more Sweets
French companies are likely to invest almost $10 billion in India in the next five years and a major portion of this will be in the industrial sector making France an important player in the Indian government’s Make in India initiative to boost the manufacturing sector, the visiting French Minister for Finance and Public Accounts Michel Sapin said on Monday.

http://www.thehindu.com/business/fr...in-india-over-next-5-years/article8152119.ece

French are Not Stupid Who Compromise Long-term Goals For Cheap Short Term Deal
http://www.deccanchronicle.com/current-affairs/250116/india-france-sign-13-agreements.html



TC
Cerberus

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Are you out of your mind you want 200 of these white elephant. That is capital expenditure of excess of 50+ billion dollar . Does IAF has enough money to pay for all these aircraft in their inventory ?

As much as you dislike your information is half baked. First things first, I do get enough information for Rafale deal as my job involves poking my nose up financial aspects for OEMs in global supply chain daily.

Second thing as much as you hate its its not 50Bn dollar

Thirdly the planes under MII is 150 approx Rafales and around 100+ in Rafale M each costing us around an median price of Rs 540 crs over time due to break even, economies of scale and local supply chain via OEM setup. Even at bare minimum equalling FrAF order equalling its 540x225= 121500 crs or approx 18bn change. Round it up max 19bn. Even at 600 crs the upper limit of the spectrum in the same report estimation , the price works out to 600x225= 135000 crs or 20bn $.

Fourthly why the cheap reason being a average Rafale production involves around 6000 people in Dassualt whole supply chain. If rafales are produced at say 3 per month this number increases to 9000 odd numbers burdening the salary and other benefits by raising it by almost 40-50% over present levels. Thus the line for India is a strategic in nature to control costs and make it attractive for exports.

fifthly, IAF had forecasted a war time availability of MKI at 66% previously and now efforts are to raise it to 75% for that itself specific LRUs and spares which we are dependent on Russia has to be localised. such items are critically not being allowed to localised. So at best we may see MKI at max 70% . on this you will see DM MP very soon replying in Parliament.

Sixthly, the MKI and LCA cannot perform what ever people say in general. Agreed MKI is a air superiority bird but India does require a fighter which can do TASA mission along with its capability to be a DPSA. Neither MKI or LCA fits that bill

Seventhly, the tech help transferred is to LCA navy under carriage which needs urgent help or you can take it from me the project is ATM stuck. The naval LCA success is the biggest need as in future our next bird naval version needs the expertise we learn there.

Eightly, the tech help extends to AMCA project as well as giving access to Neuron tech.

This is what all I can tell you. Beyond this no one will confirm you anything. I know bcz as I said I deal directly with the OEMs setting shop in India and that's why I could give some solid information

The MII is coming and so are the numbers. This deal will become the benchmark and in future even FGFA will need structuring at par or better than this MII deal. Heck all IA or IN deals will require similar benchmarking. So expect a strong opposition lobby to paint the town with news reports all over.

One more news between ydy and today, Dassault has conveyed to their 600 odd suppliers to come out for time sheet for opening their business in India. The target for first Rafale in MII rollout is year end 2019 or max 2020. Any delay will cause issues for financial part as Indian government has given a timeline already.

Enjoy and regards

@Abingdonboy

 

[cerberus]

What does combat load have to do with attrition rate are you stating in war these 36 rafale be more than enough for PAF and PLAAF.

Who Told You That Rafale is Final Tally Will Go To 36 the Clause is For +18 More
Also Navy Has Shown Its Own Interest is RAFALE M for It Aircraft Carrier Requirements

LCAmk1a and LCAmk2 and SU30 are more than enough to tackle our current threat perception.

the Firts Squaron LCA will be get operational by 2018-19 As For MK2 its Gone Beyond 2024-25 thats A Bare Truth

 

[Lonely Hermit]

As much as you dislike your information is half baked. First things first, I do get enough information for Rafale deal as my job involves poking my nose up financial aspects for OEMs in global supply chain daily.

Second thing as much as you hate its its not 50Bn dollar

Thirdly the planes under MII is 150 approx Rafales and around 100+ in Rafale M each costing us around an median price of Rs 540 crs over time due to break even, economies of scale and local supply chain via OEM setup. Even at bare minimum equalling FrAF order equalling its 540x225= 121500 crs or approx 18bn change. Round it up max 19bn. Even at 600 crs the upper limit of the spectrum in the same report estimation , the price works out to 600x225= 135000 crs or 20bn $.

Fourthly why the cheap reason being a average Rafale production involves around 6000 people in Dassualt whole supply chain. If rafales are produced at say 3 per month this number increases to 9000 odd numbers burdening the salary and other benefits by raising it by almost 40-50% over present levels. Thus the line for India is a strategic in nature to control costs and make it attractive for exports.

fifthly, IAF had forecasted a war time availability of MKI at 66% previously and now efforts are to raise it to 75% for that itself specific LRUs and spares which we are dependent on Russia has to be localised. such items are critically not being allowed to localised. So at best we may see MKI at max 70% . on this you will see DM MP very soon replying in Parliament.

Sixthly, the MKI and LCA cannot perform what ever people say in general. Agreed MKI is a air superiority bird but India does require a fighter which can do TASA mission along with its capability to be a DPSA. Neither MKI or LCA fits that bill

Seventhly, the tech help transferred is to LCA navy under carriage which needs urgent help or you can take it from me the project is ATM stuck. The naval LCA success is the biggest need as in future our next bird naval version needs the expertise we learn there.

Eightly, the tech help extends to AMCA project as well as giving access to Neuron tech.

This is what all I can tell you. Beyond this no one will confirm you anything. I know bcz as I said I deal directly with the OEMs setting shop in India and that's why I could give some solid information

The MII is coming and so are the numbers. This deal will become the benchmark and in future even FGFA will need structuring at par or better than this MII deal. Heck all IA or IN deals will require similar benchmarking. So expect a strong opposition lobby to paint the town with news reports all over.

One more news between ydy and today, Dassault has conveyed to their 600 odd suppliers to come out for time sheet for opening their business in India. The target for first Rafale in MII rollout is year end 2019 or max 2020. Any delay will cause issues for financial part as Indian government has given a timeline already.

Enjoy and regards

@Abingdonboy

There is nothing wrong in building castles in the air

Who Told You That Rafale is Final Tally Will Go To 36 the Clause is For +18 More
Also Navy Has Shown Its Own Interest is RAFALE M for It Aircraft Carrier Requirements

the Firts Squaron LCA will be get operational by 2018-19 As For MK2 its Gone Beyond 2024-25 thats A Bare Truth

You are not understanding what I am trying to state you need number take on the might of PLAAF. Investing in white elephant in piecemeal manner will only divert much needed resource from other programme which can provide numerical parity against PLAAF threat and also build large indigenous industrial base.

 

[Tshering22]

Do you Even Read what is Written they ASK for Evaluation only . Secondly Do you think Any Country Will Buy It Without FOC.So First Priority it should Get FOC from IAF.


Its 9 billion which 60,000 $ with 50 % offset

Things are moving smoothly and FOC will happen this year. If negotiations start now, it is likely that the deal may commence soon.

Don't jump to present situation without factoring in the future possibilities please. The way our government is working at an accelerated pace, it is not impossible to consider that someone may show keenness to place orders.

 

[cerberus]

You are not understanding what I am trying to state you need number take on the might of PLAAF. Investing in white elephant in piecemeal manner will only divert much needed resource from other programme which can provide numerical parity against PLAAF threat and also build large indigenous industrial base.

PLAAF Was all CCP Propaganda what You calling white elephant is one of most Sophisticated Fighter in World
Quality Always beats quantity USAF Proved it Again and Again in war.Pakistani Craves For F-16 more than JF-17 If its available to the.

Make technical comparison with any fighter Available in South Asia With Rafale

 

[Lonely Hermit]

PLAAF Was all CCP Propaganda what You calling white elephant is one of most Sophisticated Fighter in World
Quality Always beats quantity USAF Proved it Again and Again in war.Pakistani Craves For F-16 more than JF-17 If its available to the.

Make technical comparison with any fighter Available in South Asia With Rafale

Yes that's the same opinion Germans had prior to operation Barbarossa (I assume looking at your flag you being one). We all know how that turned out.

 

[cerberus]

Things are moving smoothly and FOC will happen this year. If negotiations start now, it is likely that the deal may commence soon.

Don't jump to present situation without factoring in the future possibilities please. The way our government is working at an accelerated pace, it is not impossible to consider that someone may show keenness to place orders.

Eventually they will, I Hope For that
But we should come to rationality First LCA still Far what we SEEK but We are adjusted if you Follow me on PDF you will Find Im One of admirer of LCA Project But its not take us Far from rationality

HAL Babus ruined the World Class Project I Knew this Because M to Govt Employee I Knw How things Go through in South Block

Yes that's the same opinion Germans had prior to operation Barbarossa (I assume looking at your flag you being one). We all know how that turned out.

Its Not WW2 sir Its Modern-warfare You should see the SIX Day war were Israel Outmatched Arab Countries
USA ruling the status For Global Power Because of its Innovation Even though its Matched By China in Economic Front
But it will still rule the world till End of this century

Its why all Craves for western Tech Euro canards are the best fighters after F-22 raptors Its good Finally we are deluding from Russian Monopoly

As For Flag Only Represent GOI here

 

[PARIKRAMA]

There is nothing wrong in building castles in the air

Be my guest my friend. As much as you will dislike it, as i said before my job involves such project people across the globe. and a Side infor I do work for a French Major FI. So when it comes to infor i do get it from people in the chain..

One more thing, the upgrade proposed for MKI is going to cost around $30-35 Mn per jet. Loaded with a new armamnets derived form Pakfa/Su35 it gonna add more than 10-15 Mn per jet cost

So MKI in Super config will be around $60 Mn + $30-35+ $10-15 = $100-110 Mn.
and still our engine issues are not resolved under this upgrade.. The discussions centered around the new engine (of Su35S) but now talks are for a variant of present MKi engine only which is being quoted as 50% better life and less issues.

 

[ashok321]

http://www.af.mil/AboutUs/FactSheets/Display/tabid/224/Article/104506/f-22-raptor.aspx

Raptor F-22 cost 143 million.
Rafale price too high. Every country wants to fleece gullible Indians.

 

[SR-91]

The deal was not signed bcz of not price issues. The price is being quoted at Rs 800 Crs (Hindu, businessline) and Rs 750 Crs (IBN Khabar). That inclusive of everything with weapons load.. India is negotiating to get it closer to 650-700 Crs.

The haggling is more from the perspective of spare which we are purchasing upfront for 10 years.

In another few months you will come to know about official announcement of MII under which total birds made in India will be close to 225+ equaling FrAF. On top price assumed is closer to in the bracket of Rs 500-600 Crs under MII with orders over time and localisation aspect.

Relax for some time.. you will see lots of such reports in next few weeks as everybody would like to create a pressure scenario for deal to falter but you can be assured that it wont at all..

If you do basic maths,
800 x 54 = Rs 43,200 crs
The spares for 10 years estimated at around 40% of this cost + other items to be brought upfront for 90% availability clause = 320 x 54 = 17280 Crs

So 43200+17280 = 60480 Crs approx

As you can see thats the basic approximation..

If we dont factor in the spares angle then we have a deal at just 43200 Crs or $ 6.45 Bn all inclusive with weapons.

Now if we reduce the price per jet all loaded, the cost of spare package also comes down due to dependency. On top with MII the spares beyond 10 years will be locally purchased. But certain critical items will have to be procured for such high availability clause implementation.

Its not a rocket science really. We will sign it and release the amount mostly in march end or April beginning based on Financial availability.

Damn yaar,
I was really hoping for closure. But it also looks like negotiators are doing hell of a job.

 

[MilSpec]

Source for this 100 million $ claim, Manohar Parrikar has already stated recently it cost $56 million to manufacture su 30mki in India.
""“The Sukhoi 30 choice is always there. What I mean to say is: upgrade the Sukhoi 30, make it more capable,” said India’s Defense Minister Manohar Parrikar.

The Su-30MKI fighter was specially developed for India by Russia’s Sukhoi Design Bureau and 200 aircraft has already entered IAF service as of August 2014.

The minister also made it clear that the IAF is concerned with the fighter costs. “It is not always… go and purchase it. A cost effective purchase is also important,” he said.

The average cost of a Sukhoi Su-30MKI fighter jet is approximately $56 million, whereas France’s Rafale fighter varies from €64 million to €90 million ($75-$106 million).""
https://www.rt.com/news/222131-rafale-deal-under-question/
@MilSpec sir your view on this is the Indian tax payer being taken for a ride by this deal ?

I like the Rafales, It's a great platform, but yes the french are completely taking India for a ride with this.

This Product life cycle cost estimates submitted by mfg and evaluated by IAF has no relevance at all. A product's life cycle cost in france is very different from it's life cycle cost in India. and IAF by no means has the expertise or the experience to evaluate life cycle costs.

I have long said, that we should have gotten out of the MMRCA and just focused on additional MKI's and maybe bought two to three squadrons of Mig35 or even the Mig29K which really are the true successors to the Mig29M.
But this issue i think was complicated by lack of confidence on the PMF FGFA.

The costs presented almost makes me think, f18SH could have been a good choice for the MMRCA..

 

[[Bregs]]

I like the Rafales, It's a great platform, but yes the french are completely taking India for a ride with this.

This Product life cycle cost estimates submitted by mfg and evaluated by IAF has no relevance at all. A product's life cycle cost in france is very different from it's life cycle cost in India. and IAF by no means has the expertise or the experience to evaluate life cycle costs.

I have long said, that we should have gotten out of the MMRCA and just focused on additional MKI's and maybe bought two to three squadrons of Mig35 or even the Mig29K which really are the true successors to the Mig29M.
But this issue i think was complicated by lack of confidence on the PMF FGFA.

The costs presented almost makes me think, f18SH could have been a good choice for the MMRCA..

Agree 100% with you, Rafale is no doubt a class apart in dual role of air dominance and A-G capabilities but the cost which is expected to be 9b $ is not at all justified. India has not fought a single major war with western avionics as is being made out now, we are getting fleeced bu junking Russian war systems in totality and pointing out limitations in all there weapons when we have fought 3 major with there weaponry