Czech Media : Pakistan shows interest in buying L-159

[Maarkhoor]

Janab if you have some delusion forces being super secretive and that too because you watch to many Hollywood films and Tv Series than that is your issue not ours. PAF is not that secretive I have friends who roam inside factories in Kamra like it's nothing. PAF is not that secretive @Path-Finder

Serving officers not allowed to share anything which is not previously public rest is up to you what you wants to believe.

 

[araz]

Serving officers not allowed to share anything which is not previously public rest is up to you what you wants to believe.

We have had one serving officer of a sister branch Court marshalled for putting some news up on a sister forum. So please do not put them and yourself at risk.
A

 

[Path-Finder]

We have had one serving officer of a sister branch Court marshalled for putting some news up on a sister forum. So please do not put them and yourself at risk.
A

Navy and Airforce are the two most sensitive institutions in any country because of their access to array of Technologies and Intelligence.

So if Personnel are giving info to their relatives who can share it with the world like its mere gossip from their phuppi's yard. Frankly they need to be lined up and shot.

 

[Maarkhoor]

We have had one serving officer of a sister branch Court marshalled for putting some news up on a sister forum. So please do not put them and yourself at risk.
A

Sir I knows this but my post is for Zarvan who quite often claims to quote inside news.
Regards,

 

[bananarepublic]

Don't we have the capability to residing K8 airframe into a proper lift aircraft..
I mean even if we downgrade jf17 it would still have high operational costs..
Plus a lift trainer from k8s would have great export potential.
Collaboration with countries such as turkey (which is also running a similar program) in field of avionics and engine will build up our aerospace industry which is severely lacking R&D mainly engine development..

 

[FuturePAF]

A good post. It highlights the difficulties faced by PAC. THE K8 is a joint production with PAF only having assembly rights. To what extent can we change it.?
Secondly a redesign will be a task occupying a team for a couple of years and the testing and validation of any changes would mean at least 100 million dollars in money and staff salaries. Do we have that much of redundent expertise to go for it?
The third issue is whether we actually have the capability to do it as to date all projects done by us have been joint ventures. If we involve the Chinese the cost will double and there will be very little motivation on the part of China as they will peddle J9/15 for your kind attention.
Fourth and lastly is the K8 actually upgradable or is the design at the limit of its development. You need to understand that PAF has had K8s for some time and has not updated them and one needs to ask why?
A

Frankly the Chinese seem open to more work for their engineers, and if they can find a way to upgrade the design with minimal structural changes, it can be offered as a retrofit to the current K-8 operators; think about the numbers flying in Pakistan and Egypt for example. they could be convinced to carry the cost if they knew the alternative was Pakistan procuring L-139s. Its like haggling with the car dealership you've gone to for the last four cars, and letting them know you've been looking around. They want to keep repeat business as winning new business is harder. if the JL-9 and L-15 are too expensive for pakistan, that's an indication they will be too pricey for the next up Chinese military operators in Southeast Asia, Africa, and Latin America.

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

I think Pakistan is the only country where every khokey wal and tea stall wala is talking about ISI like its their khala ki larki.

Navy and Airforce are the two most sensitive institutions in any country because of their access to array of Technologies and Intelligence.

So if Personnel are giving info to their relatives who can share it with the world like its mere gossip from their phuppi's yard. Frankly they need to be lined up and shot.

I dont think China can offer you anything that is a sophisticated and a refined product. Just look at the way they play music. They skip some notes and rush through some.
They are our good friends and that's all good.

Im not saying they have bad weapons systems. They have some very good systems but theyare not polished enough.

But we have converging interests with Turkiye. Shared national characteristics and similarities. There is much to gain in collaborating with them.

In summary China offers you strategic friendship. And they can provide you with weapons and technology for the here & now (short term).

Whereas, with Turkiye (and various other muslims states with great potential e.g central asia, muslim parts of Russia etc etc) we have greater chances of progress through collaboration. They offer you strategic friendship of a higher degree. They offer you weapons and technology that is well thought out, polished and properly refined. In addition to that also business oppurtunities. And growing people 2 people relations(this is especially easier to establish with Turkiye than with China). Thus, it offers you oppurtunities for progress in the long term.

I remember @Bilal Khan (Quwa) in one of his posts commented along the same lines. That China does not seem to be willing to provide work share and ToT oppurtunities. Wheras,Turkey seems to go out of its way to offer work share and industrial offsets.

The point of partnering with rising underdog nations is so that instead of competing with their progress, we can share their progress and reap its benefits. Also, if we succeed in forming such a union we can gradually come out of the influence of empires of the old like that of USA, Western Psuedo moral police etc etc.

Frankly the Chinese seem open to more work for their engineers, and if they can find a way to upgrade the design with minimal structural changes, it can be offered as a retrofit to the current K-8 operators; think about the numbers flying in Pakistan and Egypt for example. they could be convinced to carry the cost if they knew the alternative was Pakistan procuring L-139s. Its like haggling with the car dealership you've gone to for the last four cars, and letting them know you've been looking around. They want to keep repeat business as winning new business is harder. if the JL-9 and L-15 are too expensive for pakistan, that's an indication they will be too pricey for the next up Chinese military operators in Southeast Asia, Africa, and Latin America.

 

[FuturePAF]

The point of partnering with rising underdog nations is so that instead of competing with their progress, we can share their progress and reap its benefits. Also, if we succeed in forming such a union we can gradually come out of the influence of empires of the old like that of USA, Western Psuedo moral police etc etc.

Cost/Benefit Analysis: Job of the PAF
they need to run the numbers and look at the life cycle costs of either option

if we bundle two to three squadrans of these LIFT aircraft with the large rifle contract, and some other military technologies (such as passive EW/radar) for a sort of economic export agreement, the nation as a whole could benefit more. I agree Pakistan does need more benefits for what it buys, but we need the PAF/MOD/Government fo Pakistan to do the cost benefit analysis as a whole

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

True. The deals we make should not just be us paying some money to acquire a platform but it should have a trickle down effect to our own industry.

I think JVs are the way to go. We need to get together with the Turks jointly develop systems that are refined and sophisticated but attainable for a developing nation.

Future weapons developments of Pakistan should be made with exports and money making in mind.

Cost/Benefit Analysis: Job of the PAF
they need to run the numbers and look at the life cycle costs of either option

if we bundle two to three squadrans of these LIFT aircraft with the large rifle contract, and some other military technologies (such as passive EW/radar) for a sort of economic export agreement, the nation as a whole could benefit more. I agree Pakistan does need more benefits for what it buys, but we need the PAF/MOD/Government fo Pakistan to do the cost benefit analysis as a whole

 

[FuturePAF]

True. The deals we make should not just be us paying some money to acquire a platform but it should have a trickle down effect to our own industry.

I think JVs are the way to go. We need to get together with the Turks jointly develop systems that are refined and sophisticated but attainable for a developing nation.

Future weapons developments of Pakistan should be made with exports and money making in mind.

What I meant was long term offsets: we buy these planes over the next 3 years and these rifles from you over the next 10 years; with ToT: and we get access to preferential exporting of our agricultural products, our industrial products, etc. For Example, Pakistani fruits in Czech Supermarkets, Pakistani designers working on clothes for Czech consumers; and it would be a springboard into central European markets

 

[denel]

What I meant was long term offsets: we buy these planes over the next 3 years and these rifles from you over the next 10 years; with ToT: and we get access to preferential exporting of our agricultural products, our industrial products, etc. For Example, Pakistani fruits in Czech Supermarkets, Pakistani designers working on clothes for Czech consumers; and it would be a springboard into central European markets

Look man, you have not been to Czech rep yet, the cost of wages is very low there; it is just one rung above a third world. They will rather spend on beer rather than fruit.

 

[araz]

Frankly the Chinese seem open to more work for their engineers, and if they can find a way to upgrade the design with minimal structural changes, it can be offered as a retrofit to the current K-8 operators; think about the numbers flying in Pakistan and Egypt for example. they could be convinced to carry the cost if they knew the alternative was Pakistan procuring L-139s. Its like haggling with the car dealership you've gone to for the last four cars, and letting them know you've been looking around. They want to keep repeat business as winning new business is harder. if the JL-9 and L-15 are too expensive for pakistan, that's an indication they will be too pricey for the next up Chinese military operators in Southeast Asia, Africa, and Latin America.

The need is limited and the expenditure is probably not worth it

I think Pakistan is the only country where every khokey wal and tea stall wala is talking about ISI like its their khala ki larki.


I dont think China can offer you anything that is a sophisticated and a refined product. Just look at the way they play music. They skip some notes and rush through some.
They are our good friends and that's all good.

Im not saying they have bad weapons systems. They have some very good systems but theyare not polished enough.

But we have converging interests with Turkiye. Shared national characteristics and similarities. There is much to gain in collaborating with them.

In summary China offers you strategic friendship. And they can provide you with weapons and technology for the here & now (short term).

Whereas, with Turkiye (and various other muslims states with great potential e.g central asia, muslim parts of Russia etc etc) we have greater chances of progress through collaboration. They offer you strategic friendship of a higher degree. They offer you weapons and technology that is well thought out, polished and properly refined. In addition to that also business oppurtunities. And growing people 2 people relations(this is especially easier to establish with Turkiye than with China). Thus, it offers you oppurtunities for progress in the long term.

I remember @Bilal Khan (Quwa) in one of his posts commented along the same lines. That China does not seem to be willing to provide work share and ToT oppurtunities. Wheras,Turkey seems to go out of its way to offer work share and industrial offsets.

The point of partnering with rising underdog nations is so that instead of competing with their progress, we can share their progress and reap its benefits. Also, if we succeed in forming such a union we can gradually come out of the influence of empires of the old like that of USA, Western Psuedo moral police etc etc.

That for 36 units will not be worth it. Buy off the shelf and get it over with if there is a need at all. PAF will get them refurbed to Zero life and they wont cost much. There maybe a need to look into weapons assimilation for our stock useage but that in itself should not be a big deal.
A

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

Yes but I am not just talking about procuring trainers etc. I am talking about developing a business model. To develop our own assets and make money by marketing those systems with partner nations.

The need is limited and the expenditure is probably not worth it


That for 36 units will not be worth it. Buy off the shelf and get it over with if there is a need at all. PAF will get them refurbed to Zero life and they wont cost much. There maybe a need to look into weapons assimilation for our stock useage but that in itself should not be a big deal.
A

 

[araz]

Yes but I am not just talking about procuring trainers etc. I am talking about developing a business model. To develop our own assets and make money by marketing those systems with partner nations.

As far as trainer markets go there is a glut so you will struggle. As a business model for all ventures not a bad idea.
A

 

[FuturePAF]

The need is limited and the expenditure is probably not worth it


That for 36 units will not be worth it. Buy off the shelf and get it over with if there is a need at all. PAF will get them refurbed to Zero life and they wont cost much. There maybe a need to look into weapons assimilation for our stock useage but that in itself should not be a big deal.
A

Good Point, I concur, Save the money and buy off the shelf