Czech Media : Pakistan shows interest in buying L-159

[ziaulislam]

The answer is in the the title of the platform. There are 4 types of trainer aircraft required for the training of fighter pilots . Basic trainer, medium trainer, intermediate jet trainer then LIFT which leads upto OCU. Basic....Mushak, Medium.... Probably Hurkus, Intermediate....K-8, LIFT....L-159, OCU....JF-17B. LIFT basically gives you a operational fighter jet performance but in a controlled environment and Sub sonic speed. Flying & fighter flying are two different things and Jf-17b is basically a Supersonic fighter jet very good for OCU but not FCU. The flight envelope of LIFT platforms allow you to make beginners mistakes and won't get out of control while this cannot be said for a dual seat variant of a fighter platform. The latter can be very unforgiving with very tiny room for error.

nope we are only missing a LIFT
jf-17B can do it but it needs to be cheaper than thunder operating cost
if any hawks or the new turkish plateform will be the best

 

[KapitaanAli]

PAF doesn't have a proper Advanced Trainer.
L159 will further life of JF17B airframe and avoid training on suicidal F7.
And of course do CAS.

Similar to the role Advanced Hawk will have in IAF. (Probably a reason Pak avoids Hawk. Hawk's future development/manufacture is entangled with India, though not to 100%.)

 

[Raider 21]

PAF doesn't have a proper Advanced Trainer.
L159 will further life of JF17B airframe and avoid training on suicidal F7.
And of course do CAS.

Similar to the role Advanced Hawk will have in IAF. (Probably a reason Pak avoids Hawk. Hawk's future development/manufacture is entangled with India, though not to 100%.)

Not exactly, good number of PAF pilots have flown the Hawks in the Middle East and Zimbabwe so they know the aircraft pretty well. My old man himself has 3000 hours in the Hawk 100 series. The Hawk that is in service with the Indian AF is based on the version built in the mid 1990s (former BAE Systems employee mentioned that as their procurement deals take a long time). Maintenance cost is pretty high per aircraft, but it is an excellent jet trainer....the Indian AF has invested well when it comes to picking the right aircraft for LIFT in terms of flying.

 

[KapitaanAli]

Not exactly, good number of PAF pilots have flown the Hawks in the Middle East and Zimbabwe so they know the aircraft pretty well. My old man himself has 3000 hours in the Hawk 100 series. The Hawk that is in service with the Indian AF is based on the version built in the mid 1990s (former BAE Systems employee mentioned that as their procurement deals take a long time). Maintenance cost is pretty high per aircraft, but it is an excellent jet trainer....the Indian AF has invested well when it comes to picking the right aircraft for LIFT in terms of flying.

I know PAF knows the Hawk pretty well, but I'm only talking about the future of the programme.
It's getting less and less viable for BAE to go at it alone. There are not many orders. So they joint developed the Advanced Hawk with HAL and said that it can be produced for exports either in BAE or in HAL or in joint. (With reports of target of 300 frames in ten years).
This is different from the Hawk-i programme.

If HAL is involved even a little in the production of Hawks for Qatar, it'll explain beyond doubt why PAF doesn't want it.

I admit there's speculation involved. But the fact remains that PAF doesn't want it even though it's great and they've flown it.

 

[niaz]

Lead in fighter training aim is to teach combat fundamentals such as combat manoeuvering, strafing and bombing etc. in an aircraft that would closely duplicate characteristics of the front line fighters. Even though Hawk as well as the Aermacchi M-346 are good LIFT trainers, IMHO one really needs supersonic aircraft in the LIFT role.

American T-38 despite being more than 50 year old design is still one of the best. Production stopped a few years back, however, under the Trump administration, it would be difficult for PAF to acquire second hand T-38’s. Probably the best LIFT available to PAF is the Chinese L-15 but it is nearly twice as heavy as the T-38 and more than half as much as M-346.

Cheapest option, if the frame is strong enough, would be to fit a more powerful engine to the K-8 which increases its top speed by about 100 mph say close to 600 MPH.

 

[denel]

Lead in fighter training aim is to teach combat fundamentals such as combat manoeuvering, strafing and bombing etc. in an aircraft that would closely duplicate characteristics of the front line fighters. Even though Hawk as well as the Aermacchi M-346 are good LIFT trainers, IMHO one really needs supersonic aircraft in the LIFT role.

American T-38 despite being more than 50 year old design is still one of the best. Production stopped a few years back, however, under the Trump administration, it would be difficult for PAF to acquire second hand T-38’s. Probably the best LIFT available to PAF is the Chinese L-15 but it is nearly twice as heavy as the T-38 and more than half as much as M-346.

Cheapest option, if the frame is strong enough, would be to fit a more powerful engine to the K-8 which increases its top speed by about 100 mph say close to 600 MPH.

T-38 is very very out of date. I think K-8 in present conf is well optimised however there is a lot of room for improvements in terms of composite usage or even a redesign and newer engine.

 

[Raider 21]

I know PAF knows the Hawk pretty well, but I'm only talking about the future of the programme.
It's getting less and less viable for BAE to go at it alone. There are not many orders. So they joint developed the Advanced Hawk with HAL and said that it can be produced for exports either in BAE or in HAL or in joint. (With reports of target of 300 frames in ten years).
This is different from the Hawk-i programme.

If HAL is involved even a little in the production of Hawks for Qatar, it'll explain beyond doubt why PAF doesn't want it.

I admit there's speculation involved. But the fact remains that PAF doesn't want it even though it's great and they've flown it.
View attachment 440051

And maintained them....from engineering to maintenance...

 

[syed_yusuf]

I believe czech republic airforce have 30-36 l159 in storage. Could upgraded at PAC fir LAC and LIFT role.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

I believe czech republic airforce have 30-36 l159 in storage. Could upgraded at PAC fir LAC and LIFT role.

All stored L-159s have been sold to Iraq and Draken International (an air training contractor).

 

[khanasifm]

Not sure what is the source of these Rumours

 

[FuturePAF]

View attachment 440571

Not sure what is the source of these Rumours

based on this; and the fact the Advanced Hawk profile is similar to the K-8P, there should be no reason, the the K-8P can not be upgraded in all way the Hawk has been upgraded too. Especially considering new airframes may not be nessecary.

https://newatlas.com/bae-systems-advanced-hawk-demonstrator-maiden-flight/49964/
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2017/06/13/00/415F734900000578-4597894-image-m-86_1497308882939.jpg
https://img.newatlas.com/advanced-h...=60&w=1000&s=1c61b9af5181feaabf76e068cdb1c802
https://img.newatlas.com/advanced-h...=60&w=1000&s=3df08dc46834b3ed9f73a24b63649ada
https://img.newatlas.com/advanced-h...=60&w=1000&s=7b91cc823f79e5490f505837f3a7e08f
http://thestrategictimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/1.jpg

 

[Raider 21]

based on this; and the fact the Advanced Hawk profile is similar to the K-8P, there should be no reason, the the K-8P can not be upgraded in all way the Hawk has been upgraded too. Especially considering new airframes may not be nessecary.

https://newatlas.com/bae-systems-advanced-hawk-demonstrator-maiden-flight/49964/
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2017/06/13/00/415F734900000578-4597894-image-m-86_1497308882939.jpg
https://img.newatlas.com/advanced-hawk-3.jpg?auto=format,compress&fit=max&h=670&q=60&w=1000&s=1c61b9af5181feaabf76e068cdb1c802
https://img.newatlas.com/advanced-hawk-4.jpg?auto=format,compress&fit=max&h=670&q=60&w=1000&s=3df08dc46834b3ed9f73a24b63649ada
https://img.newatlas.com/advanced-hawk-8.jpg?auto=format,compress&fit=max&h=670&q=60&w=1000&s=7b91cc823f79e5490f505837f3a7e08f
http://thestrategictimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/1.jpg

The Hawk 100 series is way ahead of the K-8P....according to a pilot who has 2000 hours on the Hawk 100 and 1000 hours on the K-8 (he wrote down the Combined Basic/Advance jet course syllabus for the K-8 aircraft). The K-8P will need new major design changes to reach that level. That's the opinion that I got, there could be info that I'm unaware of that would counter these claims. Cheers !!!

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Alan Warnes, who authored the recent PAF book, said the PAF is transitioning LIFT to the FT-7P. So clearly, a LIFT/FCU is required, and due to the paucity of affordable LIFT aircraft on the market, the PAF is using FT-7P. Finally, the L-159 rumours are coming from a Czech news website (Euro.cz) claiming to quite Czech MoD officials. Also worth noting that in October, the MoDP visited Aero Vodochody.

 

[khanasifm]

Alan Warnes, who authored the recent PAF book, said the PAF is transitioning LIFT to the FT-7P. So clearly, a LIFT/FCU is required, and due to the paucity of affordable LIFT aircraft on the market, the PAF is using FT-7P. Finally, the L-159 rumours are coming from a Czech news website (Euro.cz) claiming to quite Czech MoD officials. Also worth noting that in October, the MoDP visited Aero Vodochody.

The above image/statement is from his book and no 1 fcu is the LIFT for paf after which type conversion happens on f-7 at no 18 and no 22 for mirage and in rare cases no 19 and no 26 for f-16 and jf (straight from k-8)

 

[araz]

The Hawk 100 series is way ahead of the K-8P....according to a pilot who has 2000 hours on the Hawk 100 and 1000 hours on the K-8 (he wrote down the Combined Basic/Advance jet course syllabus for the K-8 aircraft). The K-8P will need new major design changes to reach that level. That's the opinion that I got, there could be info that I'm unaware of that would counter these claims. Cheers !!!

A good post. It highlights the difficulties faced by PAC. THE K8 is a joint production with PAF only having assembly rights. To what extent can we change it.?
Secondly a redesign will be a task occupying a team for a couple of years and the testing and validation of any changes would mean at least 100 million dollars in money and staff salaries. Do we have that much of redundent expertise to go for it?
The third issue is whether we actually have the capability to do it as to date all projects done by us have been joint ventures. If we involve the Chinese the cost will double and there will be very little motivation on the part of China as they will peddle J9/15 for your kind attention.
Fourth and lastly is the K8 actually upgradable or is the design at the limit of its development. You need to understand that PAF has had K8s for some time and has not updated them and one needs to ask why?
A