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Cross Border Solutions to India and Pakistan problems !

Is there any button for 'Thank you very much' ? :smitten: ....
This is a fantastic write up. I'm looking forward more Pakistani member give their thoughts.
Since this is a cross border solution.
Lets first look across the border before returning to give comments on the solutions presented before.

From my point of view .. India's greatest issue is ensuring that the middle class revolution that began does not slow down and hit a barrier. There is still poverty in India.. but its relative. After all, one just has to look at a few neighborhoods in the US to see the idea of relative poverty there. Hurricane katrina(not the actress) exposed some of these down trodden areas.

India's economic rise will continue unabashed as long as it does not encamp itself to any power. In the effort to justifiably modernize itself is India risking an arms race with its western and northern neighbor?
Unlike islands such as the United states, India cannot disconnect itself from its surroundings.
On the east it has Bangladesh, a nation that is forever in debt to India for freeing it from a clutches of leftover colonialism.
However.. this debt does not imply tacit control of Bangaldeshi affairs, as this may result in sections of the bengali populous revolting against its own rulers for seemingly acting as Indian puppets. The relations must be that of a caring friend instead of a master. Something India must also balance when it comes to the relations it has with Burma.. a place courting democracy for decades but never on the verge of attaining it.
To the north east.. India has Nepal. A relative vassal state as the Nepalese are very intertwined with their Indian counterparts across the border to offer anything more than passive objections to India's interference in their affairs. India will have to look to check any Chinese efforts in downplaying its role in nepal, efforts there are active as we speak.

Then comes China.
The Indian-Chinese relation is complex simply because of the fact that India has repeatedly courted open threats to China.
Had India not taken an aggressive stance against China in the first place.. both nations would have found themselves as Asian powerhouses taking on the west. In any case, India's move to take China as a potential adversary is as futile as is the US's attempt to do so. China has economically entangled India in massive trade, trade that is essential more so for the Indian economy thangiven credit for. Aggressive statements, military hardware purchases will not benifit India at all vis a vis China.
What will is reciprocating the economic "octupus hug" against China. Investing in China is the way forward for India..
Another issue is China-Pakistan relations. The former had regarded Pakistan as a good way to keep India's attention from focusing on just themselves while the latter regards the former as bully insurance.
India needs to think beyond these relations when it comes to China, it has to disregard Pakistan's threat level and focus on breaking this final traditional alliance.. if China realizes that India is the more profitable friend..it will reduce the diplomatic support Pakistan gets from it.

Coming to Pakistan.. India has to understand the ground situation better. Currently India has moved on from its "Pakistan problem" mindset while the latter's armed forces refuse to accept that their reason of existance is beyond India. This has always been to India's benefit since Pakistan is already crumbling.. its original ideological concept lost, and any new ones have left the state further warped and twisted than it was before.
Moreover, it should have dawned to Indian planners by now that the influential powers in the west have decided on cutting Pakistan down to size. Its nuclear weapons which have stood as the deterrent to India are flagged for neutralization.
This is a fight that India does not need to get into.. just watch. But when it does assume belligerent postions against its ailing neighbor... it gives Pakistan's establishment another excuse to live on , to justify its excesses.
While it is too much of a humanitarian demand to ask, India must consider the people of Pakistan its future relation and not the establishment. A people who are now more and more convinced of peace with India. Any attempts by the establishment through political and proxy voices to convince otherwise have not received the response they wished.
All weapon purchases being made by India should not provoke an arms race, rather an olive branch while modernizing forces will go a long way in convincing the Pakistani voter that India was never a problem for Pakistan.
What India must understand.. is that its mortal enemy.. the Pakistani establishment.. will only get weaker through peace.. and not war. When there is nothing but a dove of peace from India, all belligernt talk to justify expenses or existence to the Pakistani people by this entity will diminish.
Not all Pakistani Military officers wish for war.. and a large section would rather just have a quiet peace and concentrate on other tasks.

Coming to kashmir, India need not be overly flexible. By suppressing any sponsored or indigenous acts of self-determination in Kashmir India is only providing fuel for prolonging the guerrilla effort. India must nurture the kashmiri, make him feel part of India .. or perhaps even more. A well fed, well clothed.. employed person will not hold any grudges. Past excesses by Indian security forces in kashmir must be acknowledged and the culprits punished. This will build up the confidence of the local population and further enforce their views of shunning any thoughts of separating from India. The concept of "the future of Kashmiris lies with India(be they of any religion)" must not be forced.. rather enticed to develop. Kashmir is not Palestine.. No Kashmiri has been ejected from their land.. and Kashmir has been a part of ancient India for a long time. All that is needed is pacification by compassion and
caring is the way to go. the result would be resilient to any outside efforts for enticing violence.

Then there are Maoists.. its the same solution.. listen, reason.. entice.Make India the attractive option, currently it is not. Not suppress.



Now coming to the points raised in post 1..some corrections.
1.The ideology is not wrong..its interpretation is. We are Muslims first and Pakistanis second.. but India is not the reason we are so.

2.The Islamization started out During Bhutto's tenure.. but that was tempered and with the demands of the people.
Zia forced the views of a few on the masses and created hydra assets for state use.
The same was used against India.

3.He was collateral damage in an religious conflict.

4.Exactly.. India has been used as the excuse for being allowed to commit all sorts of excesses. But then again..India has helped this idea along.

But the biggest suggestion.. to both sides. Is for people to people contact.
To give a weird example.. there is a big difference when you tell your girlfriend(sincerely) "I love you" on a text message.. and when you say it to her face.
Its human contact that changes perceptions.. not government to government.
The more the latter is encouraged.. the sooner problems will be solved.
 
Let me clarifies some points..

Aggressive statements, military hardware purchases will not benifit India at all vis a vis China.
What will is reciprocating the economic "octupus hug" against China. Investing in China is the way forward for India..

I'm fully convinced .. this is the way forward .... Indian Strategic thinker also tread this way .. India is building a 'credible minimum deterence' .. Indian government should never allow indian army to be dispassionate larger or involve in arms race... As General kayani truly says "capability matters not intentions "

All weapon purchases being made by India should not provoke an arms race, rather an olive branch while modernizing forces will go a long way in convincing the Pakistani voter that India was never a problem for Pakistan.
What India must understand.. is that its mortal enemy.. the Pakistani establishment.. will only get weaker through peace.. and not war. When there is nothing but a dove of peace from India, all belligernt talk to justify expenses or existence to the Pakistani people by this entity will diminish

India really wish to be de linked from India-Pakistan region... Even our BJP (right wing , so called hindu party) had supported peace with Pakistan . Then what India gets in return?
# PM Vajpayee travel to Pakistan with peace message , India got Kargil in return.
Until and unless Pakistan get a strong civilian government which truely reflect views of masses, Future of peace process is bleak according to me.Yes Peace is only way forward.


Then there are Maoists.. its the same solution.. listen, reason.. entice.Make India the attractive option, currently it is not. Not suppress.

I think moist problems need more input from you. As it is the biggest problem India currently facing. Like choking the fund,Arms and developing hitherto undeveloped area.

.
The Islamization started out During Bhutto's tenure.. but that was tempered and with the demands of the people.
Zia forced the views of a few on the masses and created hydra assets for state use.
The same was used against India.

Yes I recognise my mistake . Islamization was started in the time of Bhutto and cemented by Zia by constitutional amendments.
 
Quick fixes for Pakistan economy.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Current scenario of economy:

1. GDP growth is 3-4%.
2. Tax to GDP ratio 8%.
3. Total debt is $117 billion out of which $56 billion is external debt.
4. Total GDP is $168 billion.

Problems

1. Low GDP growth and low tax collection.
2. Debt as such should not be area of concern (bellow 75% of GDP), However external debt is roughly 50% is a major area of concern. Pakistan would be more suspetable to external shocks.
3. Very High Inflation -- double digit.

Solutions:
1. Fiscal consolidation is the way forward but PPP and PML-N government unduly involved in Popular schemes like Benzir loan scheme and other 'freebies'. Government have to cut expenditure, People needs to do some sacrifice.
2. Even China and India received billions of dollar by Aid annually,How come Pakistan refused Aid ? It is free money , many schools and hospitals can be built by that.
3. Tax reform both direct and indirect tax so increase tax base and stop tax evasion.
4. Foreign investment highly needed.
5. Although Public private partnership model is suggested as panacea but it will fail with poor governance.

6. Pakistani people has to change their mindset. They are waiting as if 'someone' will come liberate their miseries. Someone here may be Imran khan or sharif or even Kayani. Media along with business chambers and civil society have to press the government whoever is presently ruling.

7. Imran khan is a very honest and hard working person but still he can not change the basic rules of economics.Pakistani People have to sacrifice a little bit for better future.

8. Mushraff did not do any wonders or PPP government did not do any blunders too . Remember Musharraf was ruling when Global economy was on tide (Some african countires like Mozambique post whopping 30% GDP annual growth), PPP has ruled when global economy is on ebb i.e recession (Even USA , Europe including china and India facing major crises).

Here i lay my case with my all imperfections.
Thank you very much for your patience.
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My Question : How to Stop border killings on India-Bangladesh border ? what is the root cause? what india can do and what bangladesh should do ? any comment from bangladesh or pakistan will be :welcome:
 
confusions, mistrust, and hate..these are the foundations of INDO-PAK problems!!!
whose gonna solve it...our policy makers..naah!! pointing fingers on each others while reviving and magnifying the issues is the part of our NETAs bread-butter. Pakistan tried every thing, war, diplomacy terrorism but u cant break the status quo...i've seen most of the people suggesting here to accept LOC as international border..and i think this is the best solution..
and for solving the mistrust part..people to people exchange is the best policy..exchange from common population..not the one like veena mallick and rakhi sawant.
 
..veena mallick...
A woman I have severe contempt for.. When you go to another country.. you are their guest.
And unlike some so called brother Muslim nations.. Indians have not shown any excessive disdain for Pakistani artiste's.
But when you go out there, and for the lack of a better word : behave like a spoilt slut. You are not just an insult to your nation, you are insulting your hosts hospitality as well.
On the flipside, people like Ali zafar.. Atif. strings have all been given fair play in India.

Coming to the maoist problem.. not much can be said.
its the same as it is with balochistan.. and we have not been able to solve it.

There is another thing to note... India is fast emerging as the IT service provider to the world. But a result of this massive exposure and expansion is a demand for higher wages. This will translate to India losing its competitive edge in the long run to China.
See, unlike India.. China is a very closed exposure society..the Media is very controlled and so is internet access.
Moreover their labor class is still borderline lower middle, and so even if a 100 people are fired one day.. there are another 100 to take their place at cheap wages. The same cannot be said of India as the information revolution is spreading awareness in a rather alarming degree. Apart from the social aspects of it which I will discuss later.. the awareness it brings on western labor practices and fair wage will have a lot of its skills pool demand better conditions from employers, and as the middle class grows.. the positive benefits to the economy it brings today may not translate well against the negative in the long run.
Its simple supply cost.. Currently the supply of skilled techonlogy workers in India is skyrocketing and is in high demand...therefore highly profitable to the economy.
But as the cost of that skilled workforce grows.. the profit margin will come down(am I right economists??).
I sure hope India's planners have put that in mind..

Now coming to the social aspect of awareness.. call me old school. But I detest the effect of globalization taking away from local culture. The concept of globalization was started in the west.. it still carries their roots. Is it drowning Indian culture, ethics?
Current Bollywood trends and internet impressions give it so..
It would be a damn shame if Indians(infact all of us desis) end up losing our own arts and culture to a cultural invasion.
 
from my side


offtopic
first of all @ NeutralCitizen

who the hell are you to teach us what should we do ? and why he is poking nose here when he is not from any side?

on topic

for me its very easy to make peace forever . as you know your IMRAN BHAI has allot of ideas daily :lol:

i never seen something hard in it but dirty games politicians and international players are real mess.


CBMS

first step should be awareness of both nations and respect each other in media and every field . india pakistan make new guide lines for media to report .not to **** each other . after every mess happen media bring us results in 10 minutes and this make really sh1t situation .report the news with respect and don't bash or propaganda each others.just give me answer what we earn in last 64 years of bashing propaganda and wars ? whats in our hands then hate ?just imagine if we live in peace last 64 years we may look like EU today . but sadly our fathers did mistakes and we follow them till today

peace wit open mind

second with honest and clean hearts just decide once forever not to use secret services and dirty games with each other .forever we will never give any militant terrorist a single bullet or gun nor even support them .hand over citizens wanted from both sides and trail them fair in their own countries .just do it once forever and we have so much mess over



third after few months of these steps when situation become cool just sit on table and start from grass root CBMs . like easy visa joint ventures joint teams for many filed exchange students and easy visa (after full investigate) and let people meet each other.


people to people
the idea of our parks is still there .:lol: make big parks on border for meet people each other daily after check from both sides .even we can assign solders of both sides on both entrance its ok for us. lets make it east for citizens to meet each other on at least 5 places of border.

trade

give first rights of trade to each other and don't be looted by west gulf or any other market. make minimum negative list of trade .invest in each other rather then africa and afghanistan damn.make easy to trade .both sides having banking and gov offices in each other like tourism ministry gov banks air lines trains . lets learn from each other good things what we learn in last 64 years .

have sports with each other yearly . not to damage interest of each other for ego but be unite for face others who want to damage us. india pakistan should work very close in sports and other fields so no one can play dirty with both of us .

terror after CBMs
i am sure after haters of peace watch it they will must try to sabotage it . so be cool if in any case they try it.joint investigate every incident honestly .not to blame game .not media trail .no damn hate to nation for few those who want to De-stable peace .and make sure after we get hands on them with proof not to let them breath a day out of jail no matter who the hell he is .

ready ground

if we continue these efforts few years like 3-4 and situation become cool we have to start border issue with open minds freedom and not in hate situation . just do what is possible . i know borders are not gonna changed but if some areas land swap or some peace making agreement can be done so do it for sake of peace and better life of our next generations.

siachin
for siachin just damn leave it alone its peace of ice on very very high mountains .just mark is once forever and get rid of it we pay millions$ and lives of brave for this mess yearly.just make one good solution and leave it alone .
kashmir
kashmir if some areas need land swap do it and make kashmiris easy to meet and travel to each other more then indians paksitanis and just leave it man we already did so so so much for it now we are tired to fight on it . after peace done IA and PA pull back and let them live in peace they already suffer so so much.

surcreek
there is surcreek issue which is really another mess just appoint international or friendly countries teams for solve it man we can't fight billions over waters and this delta eat many pak marines lives already .

final stages
so after we work 10 years on this plan we have finally a day when we work in each other country travel to each cities free and save billions of$ also develop allot .separation is done in 1947 we got huge countries now fighting over corners since 64 years and public is deep in mess we are loaded with weapons damn can wipe us our of earth ? wow we really got brains ?
 
and yes nothing gonna happen until we never come clean heart and really willing to do peace .else we have point scoring and just passing time talks since 64 years and we are nowhere today .
 
@mirage
sadly our fathers did mistakes and we follow them till today

Fully agree with this , The poison was injected in our mind during our childhood though school books that India/Pakistan is a monster... We are still struggling to eject fractions of it from our body... We know that is wrong still we are incapable of not to pass in our children.:hitwall:

@Rama
reviving and magnifying the issues is the part of our NETAs bread-butter
Rama, Netas do not take pledge to destroy the society but they have taken pledge to be re-elected ..what ever it takes to be re-elected , they do ...we also part of this crime.... It is from our childhood , these values inculcated silently through books which was taken exploited by our so called Leaders in our youth.... When they got re-elected they inculcate more poison .. this in turn form the vicious circle.:hitwall:

@Oscar
Currently the supply of skilled techonlogy workers in India is skyrocketing and is in high demand...therefore highly profitable to the economy.
But as the cost of that skilled workforce grows.. the profit margin will come down(am I right economists??).
I sure hope India's planners have put that in mind..

Now coming to the social aspect of awareness.. call me old school. But I detest the effect of globalization taking away from local culture. The concept of globalization was started in the west.. it still carries their roots. Is it drowning Indian culture, ethics?
Current Bollywood trends and internet impressions give it so..
It would be a damn shame if Indians(infact all of us desis) end up losing our own arts and culture to a cultural invasion.

1. Rightly said when wages rises .. India can found our selves in 'middle income trap'.. however Indian planners has take drastic step to avoid this trap.such as India would train 500 million people into skilled workforce till 2021.India is celebrating this decade as decade on innovation by opening 16 'innovation universities' till 2015.

2. I'm also from same old school. However today is the world of consumerism, Korea and Japan able to preserve their culture because they are able to sell it. To sell a culture certain modification i.e. giving it a shiny finish so people can attracted towards it.Material aspects of culture such as food , music ,paintings ,architecture and dressing must be streamlined with peace,scienticism and rationalism.Even I think Bollywood is making intrusion into local culture of India itself. There are only two choices reform or die.Even government can do little without support of that society itself.
 
@mirage


Fully agree with this , The poison was injected in our mind during our childhood though school books that India/Pakistan is a monster... We are still struggling to eject fractions of it from our body... We know that is wrong still we are incapable of not to pass in our children.:hitwall:

but there should be a end full stop on it one day . look germany france - japan usa - russia china - then why not we ?

what a bad luck we will remain poor forever fighting each other on nothing ?:hitwall:
 
but there should be a end full stop on it one day . look germany france - japan usa - russia china - then why not we ?

what a bad luck we will remain poor forever fighting each other on nothing ?:hitwall:

Those countries have never been colonised, Here i would say Pakistan and North India have same mentality ,same culture .. Two classes feudal Lords(Britain) and slaves (we).. Now Lords are gone .. Now every slave has a dream to a be a feudal lord or 'to rule'.
That's why this is in our mentality .. We don't want to a good citizen but to be a ruler who breaks every rule and makes his own.For eg. no one want to follow traffic rules.. people feel 'shame' to follow traffic rules.

hence Until and unless we stop thinking from heart and start thinking from mind.. These conditions will remain as such.:hitwall:
 
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