Creating a new Medina

[nair]

The core of the vision, the visionary core, or whichever way it is articulated, was independence. A release from bondage. Everything else was secondary.

You are spot on..... Those days the first priority was to get independence and create a nation which is united..... and they were successful.....

 

[Joe Shearer]

Jinnah forsee a secular nation that can compete India in economic,S&T ,social reformation etc and all other fields .But his dreamed died out with his death.
Other leaders in Pakistan betrayed him.

I believe that Jinnah foresaw a secular nation constituted of Muslims where they could practice their religion as a majority community, and not be a minor part of some larger entity. It is unlikely that competition came into the vision. He himself planned to retire to Bombay, and quite possibly of being buried next to Ruttee.

I don't believe in any of his views but politically the partition was correct. Those Muslim League representative were meant to be only a nuisance in India's constituent assembly, without them others could work in peace for India's constitution in shortest time and brought all the princely states within the fold of constituent assembly of India.

Not a very clear observation.

Other than Patel and V. P. Menon, nobody else among the Indians or among the representatives had anything to do with the princely states and their coming into India.

You may have a point about the constituent assembly. But sadly, that again belongs to the realm of parallel history. Not recommended.

The logic looks very twisty that the Muslim minority in Hindu majority provinces should be fighting and making sacrifices for the nationhood of people of Muslim majority provinces even if there is little scope for the Muslims in Hindu majority provinces that their life will get any better after that.

How else could he justify the status of the Muslims in Muslim-minority provinces?

 

[INDIC]

This is not at all clear.

Only the western Punjab and eastern Bengal went to Pakistan. Why are you including the entire north-west? That, being an aggregation of Muslim majority colonial provinces and princely states, was a foregone conclusion to go to Pakistan.

Why should we have had to fight - neither west Bengal or east Punjab was slated to go to Pakistan, and neither went to Pakistan.

Other than Hyderabad and Travancore, I can't recall any other Muslim ruled Hindu majority princely state.

Yes, but Muslim League wanted non-Muslim areas of Punjab, Bengal along with entire Assam for Pakistan and when the wish wasn't granted, they came with "Moth Eaten Pakistan" excuse. There were Muslim ruled Hindu majority princely states, only Junagadh and Hyderabad created nuisance. Muslim League wouldn't have allowed end of Muslim rule in all these Hindu majority princely states or creating hurdle in linguistic based provinces like Haryana out of Muslim majority Punjab because a Hindu majority province.

Parallel history is a most dangerous self-indulgence.



It is explained carefully and in detail in the article itself. Do take a look - at leisure.

I have read it and I am not talking about any ideal case that India would turn into a developed country in 7 decades. I only pointing partition provided greater political stability to India.

 

[livingdead]

I would thank jinnah for making India and pakistan both viable entities.. the differences between us(in british India) was too much... and we would have faced civil war few years later.
I wish british India was divided based on cultural affinity though .. north / south / east.

 

[INDIC]

Not a very clear observation.

Other than Patel and V. P. Menon, nobody else among the Indians or among the representatives had anything to do with the princely states and their coming into India.

You may have a point about the constituent assembly. But sadly, that again belongs to the realm of parallel history. Not recommended.

Nehru, Patel, Menon all were worried about the future of princely states but Sardar Patel and VP Menon worked on it. The Muslim League always saw princely states joining India creating a stronger India and thus creating more challenges for Pakistan and they also tried to get hold on many Hindu majority princely states. Read this Pakistani site what were they upto with princely states even trying to get Hindu majority princely states deep inside India and usual grumbling how India spoiled it. Quaid-iAzam, Muslim League and the Accession of Princely States

No. You are mistaken. This is a new pretext of not giving Kashmiries their right of self-determination.

You are wrong, Pakistanis believe India-Pakistan enmity started with the war between Raja Dahir and Muhammad Bin Qasim and sometime even taking it back to demonizing Chanakya in Pakistan since he is considered as a hero by Indians. Kashmir or any other territory even if they not existed, Pakistan would have still considered India as an enemy. Its about ideology , not Kashmir.

 

[Joe Shearer]

I think you missed world bank report, only Lanka of ravan have less poverty then Pak in South Asia. Or the fact that 60% of hindus like to shit in open like animals. And you also missed latest report about South Asia hunger problem which explain weak hindu phisique.

This is an example for all Indians.

Get to be like this one, and we will slide backward into the state that he and his countrymen are in.

We should frame this post in gold and hang it on our walls. How not to look at things.

 

[Joe Shearer]

I feel it was due to over-fantasization with socialism, the socialism indeed helped India to get rid of many social problems but the over-fantasization came a disaster for Indian economy in long term and this country remained mainly poor.

That is hindsight. Always perfect by definition. At the time, the view was different. Soviet Russia was doing well. Socialism was by no means a spent force. There was little or no heavy industry in India, and these factories had to be put up without the cooperation of the private sector, which, then and now, was interested in quick returns and in trading operations, rather than in manufacture or in engineering.

I wonder what alternatives were available at that time.

Nehru, Patel, Menon all were worried about the future of princely states but Sardar Patel and VP Menon worked on it. The Muslim League always saw princely states joining India creating a stronger India and thus creating more challenges for Pakistan and they also tried to get hold on many Hindu majority princely states. Read this Pakistani site what were they upto with princely states even trying to get Hindu majority princely states deep inside India and usual grumbling how India spoiled it. Quaid-iAzam, Muslim League and the Accession of Princely States



You are wrong, Pakistanis believe India-Pakistan enmity started with the war between Raja Dahir and Muhammad Bin Qasim and sometime even taking it back to demonizing Chanakya in Pakistan since he is considered as a hero by Indians. Kashmir or any other territory even if they not existed, Pakistan would have still considered India as an enemy. Its about ideology , not Kashmir.

It is strongly recommended that you confine your reading to decent texts and authentic history, and not take blogs on the Internet as a source of authentic, academic information.

If you have gone through that blog spot, it is really surprising that you did not detect the numerous fallacies and the clumsy contradictions with which it is littered. Please read V. P. Menon: The Integration of the Human States instead.

 

[INDIC]

It is strongly recommended that you confine your reading to decent texts and authentic history, and not take blogs on the Internet as a source of authentic, academic information.

If you have gone through that blog spot, it is really surprising that you did not detect the numerous fallacies and the clumsy contradictions with which it is littered. Please read V. P. Menon: The Integration of the Human States instead.

That's not a blog, but some Pakistani site named Jinnaharchive looks like a site of a museum. I am not sharing it to make you believe what written in this site but I found their insight and grumbling towards princely states quite amusing and wanted to share with you.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Yes, but Muslim League wanted non-Muslim areas of Punjab, Bengal along with entire Assam for Pakistan and when the wish wasn't granted, they came with "Moth Eaten Pakistan" excuse. There were Muslim ruled Hindu majority princely states, only Junagadh and Hyderabad created nuisance. Muslim League wouldn't have allowed end of Muslim rule in all these Hindu majority princely states or creating hurdle in linguistic based provinces like Haryana out of Muslim majority Punjab because a Hindu majority province.



I have read it and I am not talking about any ideal case that India would turn into a developed country in 7 decades. I only pointing partition provided greater political stability to India.

You can have your cake, or you can eat it.

If you believe your blog spot on the Integration of the States, the Pakistani policy was strict legitimacy. So where is the question of the Muslim League doing this, that or the other? Why is it that you can never resist the temptation to start building parallel histories? What were the Muslim ruled Hindu majority states you refer to? Are you talking about Bhopal? Or about the statelets in the Kutch?

It is peculiarly inept to write that the Muslim League wouldn't have allowed end of Muslim rule in all these Hindu majority princely states, when the historical fact is that it did allow the end of Muslim rule. To bring up Haryana, a construct of years later, and to speculate in a totally unfounded manner that the Muslim League might have obstructed its formation is truly parallel history building of a highly disordered intellectual category.

 

[Marshmallow]

why so many ppl viewing this thread

 

[Joe Shearer]

Nehru, Patel, Menon all were worried about the future of princely states but Sardar Patel and VP Menon worked on it. The Muslim League always saw princely states joining India creating a stronger India and thus creating more challenges for Pakistan and they also tried to get hold on many Hindu majority princely states. Read this Pakistani site what were they upto with princely states even trying to get Hindu majority princely states deep inside India and usual grumbling how India spoiled it. Quaid-iAzam, Muslim League and the Accession of Princely States



You are wrong, Pakistanis believe India-Pakistan enmity started with the war between Raja Dahir and Muhammad Bin Qasim and sometime even taking it back to demonizing Chanakya in Pakistan since he is considered as a hero by Indians. Kashmir or any other territory even if they not existed, Pakistan would have still considered India as an enemy. Its about ideology , not Kashmir.

It is possible that you are right on this matter. Even if Kashmir had gone to Pakistan, it is by no means sure that the two countries would have lived in peace with each other.

This is an example for all Indians.

Get to be like this one, and we will slide backward into the state that he is in.

We should frame this post in gold and hang it on our walls. How not to look at things.

why so many ppl viewing this thread

An excellent opening post, and decent contributions from the members posting.

That's not a blog, but some Pakistani site named Jinnaharchive looks like a site of a museum. I am not sharing it to make you believe what written in this site but I found their insight and grumbling towards princely states quite amusing and wanted to share with you.

Yes, indeed, it is amusing, but also irritating in its blemishes, which are numerous. I am glad you shared it with me, because it was instructive to read a totally deluded point of view, but it was also irritating; too very many mistakes.

 

[Marshmallow]

It is possible that you are right on this matter. Even if Kashmir had gone to Pakistan, it is by no means sure that the two countries would have lived in peace with each other.





An excellent opening post, and decent contributions from the members posting.



Yes, indeed, it is amusing, but also irritating in its blemishes, which are numerous. I am glad you shared it with me, because it was instructive to read a totally deluded point of view, but it was also irritating; too very many mistakes.

so then tell me briefly what the article says....as its too long to read...if its really interesting only then ill read!

 

[INDIC]

It is possible that you are right on this matter. Even if Kashmir had gone to Pakistan, it is by no means sure that the two countries would have lived in peace with each other.

If you remember before Kashmir even came up in late October, Junagadh was already messed up by mid September. So, Kashmir just inspires Pakistan keep the fight with India go on, if not Kashmir they would have find something else like some other princely state or water issue.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Our problems will never be solved until india accepts our sovereignty as a free country for Muslims. Her hatred against us from day one, which is mainly due to the ideology of Akandh Bharat, compelled us to undermine one another. Jinnah never has this idea in mind that Pakistan will become the center of world's top rank intelligence agencies with which ISI will have to fight the longest cold war in modern history. just yesterday, indian BSF shot down a simple villager on pakistani side from across the boarder, while pakistanies handed them over their BSF soldier alive the day before yesterday. Look at the difference in mentalities, we are sending happy unharmed soldiers and they, corpses. How can you assume that our countries will progress?

There is no constituency for that Akhand Bharat rubbish except in a minority of largely religion-demented people. Jinnah never had ISI in mind. Very true. But Jinnah and his ideals, and his ideas were very rapidly abandoned by most of his AIML supporters, and the state was sabotaged from within by the rich families that ran the new state with its nascent institutions, in collaboration with a venal civil service, and an Army that had made a singularly unhappy mistake by getting into running the country.

Picking out one example or another and extrapolating it to the entire range of relations between two countries is not very useful. Those who are so inclined can produce, at short notice, a few dozens of instances showing that Pakistani border policemen are peculiarly vicious and sadistic, or, for that matter, Pakistani soldiers are so. I don't think such charges and counter-charges have any meaning or relevance whatsoever, and do not wish to enter this mud-slinging competition.

 

[Joe Shearer]

so then tell me briefly what the article says....as its too long to read...if its really interesting only then ill read!

@Marshmallow

It summarises, more or less in good prose, the essence of the book under review, about Jinnah's and the Muslim League's intentions in seeking Pakistan, as seeking a new homeland for Muslim Indians. It details the fear that Muslim Indians had of being swamped by the Hindu majority in an undivided India, and their consequent effort to create pockets where they, Muslims, would be in a majority. It describes Jinnah's reconciliation of the Muslims living in Hindu majority being unable to enjoy these protections as a necessary sacrifice by a part of the community, for the good of the greater part of the community.

This is a point of view, and you may care to read it as a point of view. First, it was not at all clear or established that Jinnah intended a partition right from the first day he took charge of the Muslim political party, the AIML. The Ayesha Jalal thesis, although it is slightly threadbare now, postulates that he was bargaining with the British and with the Congress for maximal protection within one undivided India, and was within reach of his target, when he was let down at the last moment by Nehru's 10th July press conference. This author also assumes that the entire project of a Muslim homeland that would serve as a city shining on the hill, a beacon for all Muslims, was well worked out; all the evidence is to the contrary, that Pakistan moved from crisis to crisis, solving each in the light of common sense, and through individual Pakistanis inspired to work beyond their normal capacity by the intense patriotism that imbued them.

The book definitely seems worth reading; the original post, a review of the book in The Hindu, is certainly worth reading.