Conspiracy to denigrate Sino-Pak ties

[Hiraa]

Lol andar kitna jal rahe ho, dekh raha hai humain.
(submarine, quadcoptor, escalation at LOC)

 

[NHUDA]

Srilankans are struggling over Chinese loans which are 10% of their GDP, how would our other neighbor survive when it loans against 25% of it's GDP?

.

Hi Please read this ... & You are welcome !

Approximately $11 billion worth of infrastructure projects being developed by the Pakistani government will be financed by concessionary loans, with composite interest rates of 1.6%, after Pakistan successfully lobbied the Chinese government to reduce interest rates from an initial 3%

The loans are subsidised by the government of China, and are to be dispersed by the Exim Bank of China and the China Development Bank. For comparison, loans for previous Pakistani infrastructure projects financed by the World Bank carried an interest rate between 5% and 8.5%, while interest rates on market loans approach 12%.

http://www.brecorder.com/market-data/stocks-a-bonds/0/1223449/

https://www.geo.tv/latest/6270-china-converts-230m-loan-for-gwadar-airport-into-grant

The loan money would be used to finance projects which are planned and executed by the Pakistani government. Portions of the approximately $6.6 billion Karachi–Lahore Motorway are already under construction.The $2.9 billion phase which will connect the city of Multan to the city of Sukkur over a distance of 392 kilometres has also been approved,with 90% of costs to be financed by the Chinese government at concessionary interest rates, while the remaining 10% is to be financed by the Public Sector Development Programme of the Pakistani government

In May 2016, the $2.9 billion loan were given final approvals required prior to disbursement of the funds were given by the Government of the People's Republic of China on May 4, 2016, and will be concessionary loans with an interest rate of 2.0%

http://tribune.com.pk/story/1096762/cpec-eastern-alignment-pakistan-china-ink-agreements-worth-4-2b/

Out of the $46 billion CPEC investment package, roughly $11.5 billion is reserved for the road and railways infrastructure. China has promised to give concessionary loans for four infrastructure projects. Two of these projects will get interest-free loans. The composite interest rate of the four projects is over 1.6%, while the interest rate of eastern alignment projects is over 2%.

The long-planned 27.1 km long $1.6 billion Orange Line of the Lahore Metro is regarded as a commercial project, and does not qualify for the Exim Bank's 1.6% interest rate. It will instead by financed at a 2.4% interest rate after China agreed to reduce interest rates from an originally planned rate of 3.4%

he $44 million Pakistan-China Fiber Optic Project, a 820 km long fibre optic wire connecting Pakistan and China, will be constructed using concessionary loans at an interest rate of 2%, rather than the 1.6% rate applied to other projects.

There have been some other loans which are not concessionary or are not to the govt but borrowed by the Consortiums to Form thr part of Equity & are on the higher side 5-6% & Plus... but those will be supposed to paid by these companies from the revenue they will earn from Build Own Operate Basis.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan_Port_Qasim_Power_Project#Financing_and_Tariff


I had a discussion with a fellow indian a while back and i know it is not a Honey filled Deal and could've been a lot better had we a better credit rating or economic outlook.. but taking into account ALL the parameters .... it is still a pretty good deal ! (ofcourse unless our politicians fudge it up due to incompetency or due to sabotage as highlighted in article above.

 

[N.Siddiqui]

Very relevant and appropriate article, not only the PDF members, but every Pakistani, people at helm of affairs, policy makers, media persons should read it.

Just to add on, enemies of Pak-China cordial relations has changed their tactics or added a new dimension.

1- Enemies of CPEC or rather Pak-China friendship has invested heavily in media groups, to come up with anti CPEC editorials, articles which starts putting question marks on CPEC. If not being able to buy the whole media group, individual anchor/media men are hired.

2- Politicians are also being heavily invested and bought up, especially ultra nationalist type persons like Achakzai, Asfandyar Wali, Sindh nationalist like Sana Ullah, a few pseudo nationalists from Balochistan were also bought up. So any one who starts talking about rights on the basis of linguistics and ethnicity need to be looked at suspicion. Take the example of MQM.

3- Earlier the enemies has planned to sabotage the CPEC through bomb blasts, scaring the Chinese, there were a few attacks on them as well. But now the strategy is two pronged, as attacking the Chinese would have exposed the enemies directly, and China could have jumped into the fray and attack Indian interests.

4- Why is it that all the three recent big incidences of terror happened in Balochistan, why not in other provinces. The reason is just to show Balochistan is restive and unsafe area to Chinese and they should stay away. There are dozens of Mazars in Sindh why a blast in Shah Noorani, Baluchistan if taken into account the ISIS behind it theory. Similarly why earlier blast in Quetta and the later attack near Quetta on the police training center. All terror attacks in Balochistan is to show the Chinese that they should stay away.

5- It also kind of indirect warning to them that CPEC will cause serious problems to Pakistan directly and to China with bomb blasts and killings as a reminder.

But all that has failed, it's up and running, is on the fast track as far as expansion is concerned. They should have studied about the PRC and Pakistan Army men and the Pakistani people...such acts to discourage makes them stronger and renews the passion.

 

[NHUDA]

The issue what many fail to understand .. friends and Foe alike .. that CHINA NEEDS this "ROAD" .... and China also need the future economic progress of its own country including eastern areas , as well as Pakistan .. as a Strong Pakistan (Economically & Militarily) is in China's interest ... Hence this PROJECT will InshAllah Go Ahead and Sooner or Later Will become a reality ... the dynamic is completely different than other projects taken upon by Pakistan or its Sponsors, or its donors.

Surely it would be Pakistan's responsibility to make it bigger pivot towards improvement ... as the power Infrastructure can help us bridging our Annual GDP losses as well as kick start our industrialization and modernization.

It is not upon china but us to make it a Transit Hub for Central Asian Region, as well as Afghanistan & Iran.

We need to make, & develop Economic Zones, and setup industries ... china is providing both the Power & infrastructure (Rail, Road, Port, Fiber Connection) for it !

If some one (friend) is thinking of it as a accomplishment which will boost our economy to Top - 10 thn they are incorrect .. it is just MEANS to Achieve that feat .. provided we work accordingly.

If someone (Foe) is thinking it is just an Airport, or a Port or a Road or few Substations that they are wrong too ... Imagine what Pakistan can do with another Port ... which NOW it needs as the current ports are functioning at max ... Imagine if thr is no power failure in our homes & industries what it can do to our productivity, lost orders, and renewed faith in the country.

Chronic power shortage, in the form of load-shedding and power outages, costed the Pakistan economy Rs14 billion (7pc of GDP) last year.
500,000 households are impacted with unemployment as businesses have been forced to shut down due to energy shortages.

CPEC can trun That Around .. if implemented as Planned ... which in itself is gonna be a Huge BOOST !

Our not so all weather friend Japan would be financing Bullet train project between Mumbai Ahmadabad worth $12 Billion with interest rate of 0.1% and moratorium period of 15 yrs (No installment to be paid for first 15 yrs) on 50 yrs repayment period. Delhi Mumbai corridor is financed@0.2%.

They narrowly beat China in getting this project which means China's deal wasn't off the mark by a big margin.

I am not creating a conspiracy, but all weather friend could do muach better than 3% or 1.6%, especially if they will use these routes for their purpose too.

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com...tations-on-soft-loan-terms/article7980794.ece

Hi, First of ALL thank you for coming back from Mars & from imagining an Interest Rate of 25% to 1.5-3%.

Secondly if u read the whole thing & understand how it works, you wouldn't compare Orange & apples ...

Pakistan have a lower Credit Rating & a Bit Volatile (Although Now Positive) Economic Outlook .... in comparison india is on upward trajectory ... the Project you are highlighting (as i do not know more than what i just read in your link) is based on competitive bidding .... the leverage was with India .. with both japan & china trying to get a "Business" prospect ....

Also a Metro is NOT a Trade Corridor .... Japan in return is getting its Investment back based on minimal Time Value of Money Fair Rate (0.5%) so yes they will not earn money thr, but they will surely make money by selling thr equipment as well as operating it !

So ROI (Return on Investment is still Good).

And had they NOT bid so low .. as you already mentioned they might have lost tht WHOLE project & hence here something is better thn Nothing works !

If still confusing than please take this example .. if tommorrow GREECE try to get a loan to build a project ... japan will offer thn at 10-12-15% interest the CAPEX (Capital Expenditure) as loan , but again if South Korea or UK, Seek similiar Specification Project it will surely offer it for 0.5% rate ... they will earn less but they will earn for sure & also almost no risk of loosing the investment !

So yes Pakistan got the loan for 1.5-3% and in some case 5-6% but still it got a better deal than it would have from ANYONE !

 

[Rasengan]

Our not so all weather friend Japan would be financing Bullet train project between Mumbai Ahmadabad worth $12 Billion@interest rate of 0.1% and moratorium period of 15 yrs (No installment to be paid for first 15 yrs) on 50 yrs repayment period. Delhi Mumbai corridor is financed@0.2%.

They narrowly beat China in getting this project which means China's deal wasn't off the mark by a big margin.

I am not creating a conspiracy, but all weather friend could do muach better than 3% or 1.6%, especially if they will use these routes for their purpose too.

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com...tations-on-soft-loan-terms/article7980794.ece

Moreover, at what rate do you think China gave loans to Srilanka?? It's 2% as per their ambassador to Srilanka.

Last time you were preaching the nonsense that the Chinese were earning 27% return on their investment. Instead of poking your nose in our business resolve and upgrade your railway....140 died.

 

[NHUDA]

Moreover, at what rate do you think China gave loans to Srilanka?? It's 2% as per their ambassador to Srilanka.

Sri Lanka has a debt problem. After more than a decade of taking out huge loans to build large-scale infrastructure — most of which hasn’t yet produced adequate returns — the country is now struggling to make payments, and is looking for another way out.

Now Come to CPEC Proposed infrastructure projects are worth approximately $11 billion & Over $33 billion worth of energy infrastructure are to be constructed by private consortia to help alleviate Pakistan's chronic energy shortages.

Now Pakistan have a Short fall of 4,500 MW, at times Reaching 7,000 MW in Peak times & only supposed to increase in coming years ....

So 33 Billion $ worth of Project will NOT be able to lie defunct but it will be able to sell energy & hence Pay back .... the remaining Infrastructure projects include, Rail, Road, Port ... and if managed properly can also yeild adequate returns to Pay back the loans!

Again Please note Two things .... consider the Deal given the Complete scenario as well as Read & understand what this project is all about rather than giving me examples of a Port here & a rail road in Africa !

 

[N.Siddiqui]

Our not so all weather friend Japan would be financing Bullet train project between Mumbai Ahmadabad worth $12 Billion@interest rate of 0.1% and moratorium period of 15 yrs (No installment to be paid for first 15 yrs) on 50 yrs repayment period. Delhi Mumbai corridor is financed@0.2%.

They narrowly beat China in getting this project which means China's deal wasn't off the mark by a big margin.

I am not creating a conspiracy, but all weather friend could do muach better than 3% or 1.6%, especially if they will use these routes for their purpose too.

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com...tations-on-soft-loan-terms/article7980794.ece

Moreover, at what rate do you think China gave loans to Srilanka?? It's 2% as per their ambassador to Srilanka.

Japan has also offered Pakistan to revive KCR at 0.1% mark up rate.

NEW YORK: Japan has further cut the very nominal interest rate to 0.01 percent on a $2.5 billion loan which Tokyo is ready to provide Islamabad for the Karachi Circular Railway project, likely to be discussed between prime ministers of Pakistan and Japan on the sidelines of the UN General Assembly here.


The Japanese are waiting for a go ahead signal from Islamabad as all other steps of the project have already been completed. These include the feasibility study, re-settlement action plan and environmental impact assessment.

Other conditions for the JICA loan have also been met by Pakistan including exemptions from GST, customs duty and taxes. The PC-1 of the project was approved by Ecnec in August 2012. Land has been allocated by the Railways ministry while no major traffic diversions or relocation of utilities is involved.

But Islamabad has so far not made the formal request and if PM Nawaz Sharif raises the issue in New York with the Japanese PM, the loan could be available within weeks as only one major step of an appraisal mission is left which the Japanese say would take about three weeks to complete.

A $2.5 billion loan to Pakistan on almost zero interest rate for 40 years with a 10 year grace period would also help Pakistan’s falling rupee against the dollar, experts say.It is yet to be seen if Nawaz Sharif will bring up the issue because if he does not, domestic politics would be the main consideration.

http://www.thenews.com.pk/Todays-News-13-25688-Japan-ready-for-a-big-$25-billion-loan-to-Pakistan

Our not so all weather friend Japan would be financing Bullet train project between Mumbai Ahmadabad worth $12 Billion@interest rate of 0.1% and moratorium period of 15 yrs (No installment to be paid for first 15 yrs) on 50 yrs repayment period. Delhi Mumbai corridor is financed@0.2%.

They narrowly beat China in getting this project which means China's deal wasn't off the mark by a big margin.

I am not creating a conspiracy, but all weather friend could do muach better than 3% or 1.6%, especially if they will use these routes for their purpose too.

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com...tations-on-soft-loan-terms/article7980794.ece

Moreover, at what rate do you think China gave loans to Srilanka?? It's 2% as per their ambassador to Srilanka.

If you read the article completely it will give you a better perspective about Pakistan China relationship. It's not transactional, it is not only bilateral, but strategic, not only trade but cultural, 10,000 Pak students in China. There are more than 8000 Chinese just in GB and many more in rest of Pakistan.

1- Strategic- Pakistan engineers from PRC Kamra is working with China in development of stealth J-20 fighter jet, the export variant of J-20 is most likely to be bought up by Pakistan first.

2- China and Pakistan are working together in development of many nuclear missile tech. in many areas of cruise missile, ballistic missile, laser guided trituim tech. missile so on and so forth, not possible with any other country.

3- The smaller tactical nuclear weapons Pakistan has developed with close cooperation with PRC, though there are about 30,000 Pakistanis working in NESCOM Pakistan.

 

[Ea Returns]

Sri Lanka has a debt problem

Is it? Srilankan debt was 36% of GDP in 2010 and shot up to 94% in 2015. They had to take 1.5 billion bailout from IMF in 2016 just to pay Chinese interest.

If China were really serious about 7000 MW shortfall, only 15 second generation nuclear reactors can produce this much electricity which is pollution free, affordable and at much lesser building cost. We are getting electricity from Kundankulam nuclear plant with Russian reactors@Rs 4.2/unit (that's after 15 yrs of project overruns and delays!). For Indian reactors at under construction in Gujarat and Rajastan, it's less than Rs.3/unit. No matter how hard i try, I can't wrap around this coal plant logic where Chinese firms are demanding Rs 12/unit rates for Sahiwal plant and chose to bow out.

This is our actual concern, Srilanka has unwillingly become a dock for Chinese ships, can't get out of it's clutches no matter how hard they try and will regret it don't know for how many decades, i hope you don't end up creating same sort of headache for us!!

Srilankan also went through stages like despising USA, calling China it's strategic ally in 2009, China vetoing UN move to put sanctions on Srilanka on human rights ground, Srilankan called their infra projects as CPCP, only difference, you call it CPEC.

http://thediplomat.com/2016/11/china-and-sri-lanka-between-a-dream-and-a-nightmare/

Japan has also offered Pakistan to revive KCR at 0.1% mark up rate.

http://www.thenews.com.pk/Todays-News-13-25688-Japan-ready-for-a-big-$25-billion-loan-to-Pakistan

Congrats on proving my point, Your all weather friend is trying to milk you to the bones through all weathers. Only implication, China won't like it. Any country friendly to Japan starts irritating it. If you govt miss to avail this opportunity, it will be under chinese pressure, mark my words.

 

[beijingwalker]

For 22 years, PRC was treated as a pariah state barred from any exposure to western technology, trade and commerce links. During this bleak period, Pakistan stood by China. For decades it was the only window for the recluse state, when Pakistan International Airlines (PIA) was the sole international air carrier operating to and from China to the outside world. Pakistan fought the case for PRC’s recognition at the United Nations and international forums and also facilitated the rapprochement between PRC and USA. Henry Kissinger’s clandestine visit to Beijing in 1971 was organised by Pakistan. This trip became the precursor of US President Richard Nixon’s historic visit to China, which finally thawed Sino-US relations/

That's very true and both US and China used this window wisely and Pakistan secretly gave China many US weapons for Chinese scientists to research, one of those US missiles given by Pakistan exploded when the Chinese missile experts were trying to dismantle it for closer study, almost all Chinese top missile expert were killed on the spot.

 

[cloud4000]

An excellent article and a must read for all Pakistani members on pdf (who are can read and write: literacy 101)
Definitely we can see such politicians and media person's trying their best to create doubts in the minds of common man I always wonder Pakistani establishment's inability or unwillingness to act openly against such traitors.

It's not an excellent article and Mr. Hali is not an excellent writer, whatever you may think of his arguments. He's has a patronizing style that treats his readers as they are idiots. Most Pakistanis -- especially those that read the English-language press -- don't a primer about CPEC. In this article, he only makes his case more than half-way through the article. For a columnist, he manages to say very little while producing so many words.

 

[Ea Returns]

Hi, First of ALL thank you for coming back from Mars & from imagining an Interest Rate of 25% to 1.5-3%.

where did i write that interest rate is 25%. I established the fact that Srilanka took loans (around $10 Billion) which were 10% of their GDP that they are struggling to pay, while you have taken loans worth 25% of your GDP. No where it was mentioned as you state.

 

[war&peace]

It's not an excellent article and Mr. Hali is not an excellent writer, whatever you may think of his arguments. He's has a patronizing style that treats his readers as they are idiots. Most Pakistanis -- especially those that read the English-language press -- don't a primer about CPEC. In this article, he only makes his case more than half-way through the article. For a columnist, he manages to say very little while producing so many words.

Being a Indian you are against CPEC rather you are our enemy and against the existence of Pakistan ...so I'm not surprised with your nasty comments about an excellent article and an excellent author .

 

[cloud4000]

Being a Indian (especially if you are a hindu bakt.. though you may deny that) you are against CPEC rather you are our enemy and against the existence of Pakistan ...so I'm not surprised with your nasty comments about an excellent article and an excellent author because lying and deception is in your nature. so GFTO.. and don't quote my posts...you are not even funny.. STFU

I didn't even mention CPEC, nor does my point have anything to do with me being Indian. But since you have no argument to give, you resort to abuse and name calling. Good day.

 

[NHUDA]

Is it? Srilankan debt was 36% of GDP in 2010 and shot up to 94% in 2015. They had to take 1.5 billion bailout from IMF in 2016 just to pay Chinese interest.

Dude Do you even read what u write .... I just quoted the FIRST line of the Article YOU posted also You said Srilanka is unable to pay the debts ...

http://www.forbes.com/sites/wadeshe...ur-money-not-your-empty-airport/#20accd6c1169

If China were really serious about 7000 MW shortfall, only 15 second generation nuclear reactors can produce this much electricity which is pollution free, affordable and at much lesser building cost. We are getting electricity from Kundankulam nuclear plant with Russian reactors@Rs 4.2/unit (that's after 15 yrs of project overruns and delays!). For Indian reactors at under construction in Gujarat and Rajastan, it's less than Rs.3/unit. No matter how hard i try, I can't wrap around this coal plant logic where Chinese firms are demanding Rs 12/unit rates for Sahiwal plant and chose to bow out.

Never put all your eggs in One basket .... .... the Energy requirement in Pakistan is urgent and Nuclear Plant take time to built .. also it is not as much clean as you think and world is doing away from making too many or relying too much on such plants..


Still to keep a balanced energy generation system ... Thr are TWO Nuclear Power Plants Under Construction in Karachi ... While another One is Planned Totaling 3,300 MW Electricity ...

Two Units of 400 MW are under construction and another 1,000 MW is being planned at Chasma Nuclear Plant.

All under CPEC !

This is our actual concern, Srilanka has unwillingly become a dock for Chinese ships, can't get out of it's clutches no matter how hard they try and will regret it don't know for how many decades, i hope you don't end up creating same sort of headache for us!!

Ha ha ha ... Well the CAT is out of its BAG .... so you are just irritated that you will get further squeezed in the IOR !!!!

hello to reality ! nothing else needed to say

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

Hi Please read this ... & You are welcome !

Approximately $11 billion worth of infrastructure projects being developed by the Pakistani government will be financed by concessionary loans, with composite interest rates of 1.6%, after Pakistan successfully lobbied the Chinese government to reduce interest rates from an initial 3%

The loans are subsidised by the government of China, and are to be dispersed by the Exim Bank of China and the China Development Bank. For comparison, loans for previous Pakistani infrastructure projects financed by the World Bank carried an interest rate between 5% and 8.5%, while interest rates on market loans approach 12%.

http://www.brecorder.com/market-data/stocks-a-bonds/0/1223449/

https://www.geo.tv/latest/6270-china-converts-230m-loan-for-gwadar-airport-into-grant

The loan money would be used to finance projects which are planned and executed by the Pakistani government. Portions of the approximately $6.6 billion Karachi–Lahore Motorway are already under construction.The $2.9 billion phase which will connect the city of Multan to the city of Sukkur over a distance of 392 kilometres has also been approved,with 90% of costs to be financed by the Chinese government at concessionary interest rates, while the remaining 10% is to be financed by the Public Sector Development Programme of the Pakistani government

In May 2016, the $2.9 billion loan were given final approvals required prior to disbursement of the funds were given by the Government of the People's Republic of China on May 4, 2016, and will be concessionary loans with an interest rate of 2.0%

http://tribune.com.pk/story/1096762/cpec-eastern-alignment-pakistan-china-ink-agreements-worth-4-2b/

Out of the $46 billion CPEC investment package, roughly $11.5 billion is reserved for the road and railways infrastructure. China has promised to give concessionary loans for four infrastructure projects. Two of these projects will get interest-free loans. The composite interest rate of the four projects is over 1.6%, while the interest rate of eastern alignment projects is over 2%.

The long-planned 27.1 km long $1.6 billion Orange Line of the Lahore Metro is regarded as a commercial project, and does not qualify for the Exim Bank's 1.6% interest rate. It will instead by financed at a 2.4% interest rate after China agreed to reduce interest rates from an originally planned rate of 3.4%

he $44 million Pakistan-China Fiber Optic Project, a 820 km long fibre optic wire connecting Pakistan and China, will be constructed using concessionary loans at an interest rate of 2%, rather than the 1.6% rate applied to other projects.

There have been some other loans which are not concessionary or are not to the govt but borrowed by the Consortiums to Form thr part of Equity & are on the higher side 5-6% & Plus... but those will be supposed to paid by these companies from the revenue they will earn from Build Own Operate Basis.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan_Port_Qasim_Power_Project#Financing_and_Tariff


I had a discussion with a fellow indian a while back and i know it is not a Honey filled Deal and could've been a lot better had we a better credit rating or economic outlook.. but taking into account ALL the parameters .... it is still a pretty good deal ! (ofcourse unless our politicians fudge it up due to incompetency or due to sabotage as highlighted in article above.

By the end of 2nd term of Mr. Trump, you'll be paying off the loans in yuan anyway...