Concerning the Fall of Constantinople...

[[TR]AHMET]

Bhai,the scale and type of propaganda that exists today,did not exist back then. It was completely different. Besides,the one Ottoman source that mentions the conquest of Constantinople,agrees with the testimonies of the other 4-5 people who wrote about it.

Yes,of course people in history lied or exaggerated things either by mistake or on purpose. But that is why you research and check various sources. That is why you investigate and see how the stories match. Also,if you have one source and no other sources...well you can't really say "it's lies",because you don't know. For example,if you have let's say 10 Westerners reporting on an event and only one Ottoman,then the validity of the Ottoman source,if it reports contrary things,is reduced. It remains of course an account,but you know what I mean.

That's how it is with history centuries ago. There's sources,you read them,you see if they agree and you check if there's anything on the opposite side. Then you draw conclusions. Besides when you have Greeks,Serbs,Hungarians,Latins(Italians,French and German)meaning people from different ethnicities,social backgrounds and interests,reporting on Ottoman atrocities,then you can't blame it on "anti-Turkish sentiment". It becomes obvious that something was wrong with the Ottomans who advanced in Europe.

you only looking from your perspective but you missed that even your co-religious countries looted and massachered greek cities. While we were very mercyfull comparing with them, even your statesmans was prefer Turkish administration.

Fourth Crusade - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"Sack of Constantinople

The crusaders sacked Constantinople for three days, during which many ancient Greco-Roman and medieval Byzantine works of art were stolen or ruined. Many of the civilian population of the city were killed and their property looted. Despite the threat of excommunication, the crusaders destroyed, defiled and looted the city's churches and monasteries.[53][19] It was said that the total amount looted from Constantinople was about 900,000 silver marks. The Venetians received 150,000 silver marks that were their due, while the crusaders received 50,000 silver marks. A further 100,000 silver marks were divided evenly up between the crusaders and Venetians. The remaining 500,000 silver marks were secretly kept back by many crusader knights.[54][55]"

Speros Vryonis in Byzantium and Europe gives a vivid account of the sack:

The Latin soldiery subjected the greatest city in Europe to an indescribable sack. For three days they murdered, raped, looted and destroyed on a scale which even the ancient Vandals and Goths would have found unbelievable. Constantinople had become a veritable museum of ancient and Byzantine art, an emporium of such incredible wealth that the Latins were astounded at the riches they found. Though the Venetians had an appreciation for the art which they discovered (they were themselves semi-Byzantines) and saved much of it, the French and others destroyed indiscriminately, halting to refresh themselves with wine, violation of nuns, and murder of Orthodox clerics. The Crusaders vented their hatred for the Greeks most spectacularly in the desecration of the greatest Church in Christendom. They smashed the silver iconostasis, the icons and the holy books of Hagia Sophia, and seated upon the patriarchal throne a whore who sang coarse songs as they drank wine from the Church's holy vessels. The estrangement of East and West, which had proceeded over the centuries, culminated in the horrible massacre that accompanied the conquest of Constantinople. The Greeks were convinced that even the Turks, had they taken the city, would not have been as cruel as the Latin Christians. The defeat of Byzantium, already in a state of decline, accelerated political degeneration so that the Byzantines eventually became easy prey to the Turks. The Fourth Crusade and the crusading movement generally thus resulted, ultimately, in the victory of Islam, a result which was of course the exact opposite of its original intention.[53]

When Innocent III heard of the conduct of his pilgrims he was filled with shame and rage, and he strongly rebuked them.

y

They give bull****

you dont like because realities annoying you, thats it.

 

[Foinikas]

you only looking from your perspective but you missed that even your co-religious countries looted and massachered greek cities. While we were very mercyfull comparing with them, even your statesmans was prefer Turkish administration.

Of course they have,but that doesn't mean you were any better. Just because a few people said they would prefer Ottomans from Latins,doesn't mean you were any better. Because you weren't. The Papacy wanted us to submit to them,the Sultan wanted to enslave us.

you dont like because realities annoying you, thats it.

I could say the exact same thing about your and your countrymen's reactions to what I've showed you. Some even outright deny the medieval sources as "not true". I've checked that Yeni Safak article before and it's just dumb propaganda in line with the Party policy.The guy will even say that Byzantine churches were influenced by Ottoman mosques...lol

Right now I'm listening to music from Can Attila's 1453. Enjoying beautiful creations like this,doesn't mean I have to eat AKP propaganda and you don't either. You have to finally accept that converting Hagia Sophia to a mosque,was a bad and offensive move. It certainly doesn't help with the supposed friendly relations that Erdogan and Cavusoglu say they want to have with us. He didn't need to convert it back to a church. He had just built a brand new massive mosque with 107 meter-tall minarets.

 

[[TR]AHMET]

Of course they have,but that doesn't mean you were any better. Just because a few people said they would prefer Ottomans from Latins,doesn't mean you were any better. Because you weren't. The Papacy wanted us to submit to them,the Sultan wanted to enslave us.

Turks were bring justice, wealth and happeness where they go, example when we took anatolia from byzantine all armenians was so appricate that we save them from byzantine cruelty also most of them enter islam because of we behave so humanist, after armenians enter Islam christians armanians call them Kurdish, because they think they become something like Turk.

Right now I'm listening to music from Can Attila's 1453. Enjoying beautiful creations like this,doesn't mean I have to eat AKP propaganda and you don't either. You have to finally accept that converting Hagia Sophia to a mosque,was a bad and offensive move. It certainly doesn't help with the supposed friendly relations that Erdogan and Cavusoglu say they want to have with us. He didn't need to convert it back to a church. He had just built a brand new massive mosque with 107 meter-tall minarets.

you should understand it, agasopia was signature of conquest of Istanbul, before we conquest istanbul we warned byzantine for surrender but they reject after we lost many soldiers because of massive offensive and control the city we loot agasopia as prize.

Another thing our prophet gave miracle that Istanbul will be conquest by beautifull Commander and soldiers, thats why agasopia something like special and holy place for Muslims too.

 

[Foinikas]

Turks were bring justice, wealth and happeness where they go, example when we took anatolia from byzantine all armenians was so appricate that we save them from byzantine cruelty also most of them enter islam because of we behave so humanist, after armenians enter Islam christians armanians call them Kurdish, because they think they become something like Turk.

I think we're done talking,sir. Have a nice day.

 

[mulj]

What did Greeks do to mosques? Return them to their original status as churches or turn them into museums.

Ajde,budalo.

Plenty of ecvdences for destruction and converting it into disrespectfull purposes but you are unable to confess youreslf that you were much more barbaric then the side you are acusing for such.

Budala ti u gacama.

 

[RIfian]

My friend Turks never demolished any churches unlike we have protected and restorated them, but those churches was in Muslim area, there is no any christians over there, so we only use them for Muslim prayers. we never touch mosaics and decors only close with sheet because pictures are forbidden in Islam

Other side if you go taksim area you can see there are a lot of churches. Christians can go churches freely.

Brother, i know the Ottomans did many good and bad things, one of the bad things was what happened to Aya Sophia Cathedral, it was the most important Church for them. How would we Muslims feel if the Jews converted Al Aqsa mosque into a synagogue? For sure we would cry and be very angry, same for the Orthodox Christians! The Church should be given back and see the two great faits coming togheter and form a alliance, as Prophet Muhamed has predicted. Did you know Allah praised the Orthodox Christians in the Quran?

 

[RIfian]

This full translation of that Iat and it was related to Al-Madinah period when Muslims migrated out of Mecca, and it’s purpose and context was completely different than what your making it out to be.

(They are) those who have been expelled from their homes in defiance of right,- (for no cause) except that they say, “our Lord is Allah”. Did not Allah check one set of people by means of another, there would surely have been pulled down monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques, in which the name of Allah is commemorated in abundant measure. Allah will certainly aid those who aid his (cause);- for verily Allah is full of Strength, Exalted in Might, (able to enforce His Will).

Treaties have a time and geographical limit until an objective is achieved. Don’t take one treaty and apply it across the board.

The holy quran is very clear, there places of worship are to be protected and the treaty of prophet Muhamed comfirms that , its Suna to follow the Prophet of you dont know.
What did the rightly guided Calif Omar when he conquered Jerusalem, did he converted there most important church into a mosque? No he respected and protected it! Again read the Treaty of Prophet Muhamed with the Orthodox Christians.

 

[PakFactor]

The holy quran is very clear, there places of worship are to be protected and the treaty of prophet Muhamed comfirms that , its Suna to follow the Prophet of you dont know.
What did the rightly guided Calif Omar when he conquered Jerusalem, did he converted there most important church into a mosque? No he respected and protected it! Again read the Treaty of Prophet Muhamed with the Orthodox Christians.

Don’t be a blind line reader. Treaties apply both ways, not one way while one abides the other strikes. That time has long past we have no reason to honor it as recent world events have shown. You want to follow it by all means go ahead but when they come for your head don’t think that piece of paper will save you. Least of all that treaty applied to Christian’s in the Arab world a certain geographic region.

 

[thetutle]

The holy quran is very clear, there places of worship are to be protected and the treaty of prophet Muhamed comfirms that , its Suna to follow the Prophet of you dont know.
What did the rightly guided Calif Omar when he conquered Jerusalem, did he converted there most important church into a mosque? No he respected and protected it! Again read the Treaty of Prophet Muhamed with the Orthodox Christians.

You do realise there were no orthodox christians when the Quran was revealed and they only appeared 350 years later?

 

[TNT]

Bhai,the scale and type of propaganda that exists today,did not exist back then. It was completely different. Besides,the one Ottoman source that mentions the conquest of Constantinople,agrees with the testimonies of the other 4-5 people who wrote about it.

Yes,of course people in history lied or exaggerated things either by mistake or on purpose. But that is why you research and check various sources. That is why you investigate and see how the stories match. Also,if you have one source and no other sources...well you can't really say "it's lies",because you don't know. For example,if you have let's say 10 Westerners reporting on an event and only one Ottoman,then the validity of the Ottoman source,if it reports contrary things,is reduced. It remains of course an account,but you know what I mean.

That's how it is with history centuries ago. There's sources,you read them,you see if they agree and you check if there's anything on the opposite side. Then you draw conclusions. Besides when you have Greeks,Serbs,Hungarians,Latins(Italians,French and German)meaning people from different ethnicities,social backgrounds and interests,reporting on Ottoman atrocities,then you can't blame it on "anti-Turkish sentiment". It becomes obvious that something was wrong with the Ottomans who advanced in Europe.

Well actually u can blame it on anti muslim mentality. It is the reality and we all know all these nations were Christians and considered muslims as heretics and u expect them to give an accurate account? Lolz
If there are 10 accounts on one side and 2 accounts on opposite then it does not mean that the 10 were correct. The 2 on opposite side should be given same weight as the 10, common sense dictates this. Also muslim societies did not record things properly but the events were propagated through generations. Afterall we have kept Quran our holly book exactly the same as was 1400 yeara ago and Christians have lost the original bible and have many many copies, all different from one another. If i had to bet on accuracy of events, id bet on muslims. How can they keep historical events accurate when they couldnt even keep their most holly book accurate and genuine.

 

[Foinikas]

Well actually u can blame it on anti muslim mentality. It is the reality and we all know all these nations were Christians and considered muslims as heretics and u expect them to give an accurate account? Lolz
If there are 10 accounts on one side and 2 accounts on opposite then it does not mean that the 10 were correct. The 2 on opposite side should be given same weight as the 10, common sense dictates this. Also muslim societies did not record things properly but the events were propagated through generations. Afterall we have kept Quran our holly book exactly the same as was 1400 yeara ago and Christians have lost the original bible and have many many copies, all different from one another. If i had to bet on accuracy of events, id bet on muslims. How can they keep historical events accurate when they couldnt even keep their most holly book accurate and genuine.

If you have absolutely no knowledge about something that happened let's say thousands of years ago,but only one account,don't you know that something happened because of that one account?

 

[TNT]

If you have absolutely no knowledge about something that happened let's say thousands of years ago,but only one account,don't you know that something happened because of that one account?

How do u know its one account? May one account reached us or was recorded. As i said my bet would be on muslims being more realistic, reasons i described above. That however doesnt mean muslims have not carried out atrocities.

 

[RIfian]

You do realise there were no orthodox christians when the Quran was revealed and they only appeared 350 years later?

No i didnt know that, The treaty was with the coptic Christians who are very close to the orthodox Christians. But it doesnt matter the massage wont change, the quran is clear about it, we shouldnt touch there churches.

 

[Foinikas]

How do u know its one account? May one account reached us or was recorded. As i said my bet would be on muslims being more realistic, reasons i described above. That however doesnt mean muslims have not carried out atrocities.

Well we will not agree,so let's just forget this

No i didnt know that, The treaty was with the coptic Christians who are very close to the orthodox Christians. But it doesnt matter the massage wont change, the quran is clear about it, we shouldnt touch there churches.

They were just Christians and the paper if the treaty is in the Orthodox monastery of Saint Catherine of Sinai in Egypt.