Comparing "Democracy" and "Dictatorship" Performance in Pakistan

[RiazHaq]

I believe that some short of undemocratic government is needed at some time, particularly in the new nation. But, nevertheless, this kind of phase should be ended at one particular time so then we can move forward into democracy. And I also strongly believe that this is the time for Pakistan to move forward and embrace Democracy.

Some basics like sustained focus human development that happened under Suharto have not happened in Pakistan's lost decades under civilian rule.

Given its large size, the Indonesian development model under Suharto should be of particular interest to Pakistanis. During Suharto’s three decades in power, Indonesia’s economy grew an average of 7 percent annually, and living standards rose substantially for the bulk of the population. Education and mass literacy programs were used to promote the national language, Bahasa Indonesia, and to unify the country’s disparate ethnic groups and scattered islands. While Suharto used unfettered dictatorial powers and his own family benefited greatly from Indonesia's crony capitalism and its rapid economic growth, the nation reaped huge benefits as well, and eventually, the significantly enlarged, educated and prosperous Indonesian middle class asserted itself and brought democracy to Indonesia after forcing Suharto out in 1998.

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A poor example.

Nations like N Korea have been authoritarian all along and where do they stand ?

What does nutrition have to do with the essentials of running a nation ? The basic issue is that do the people have a say or voice in electing their leaders ? Yes, there may be bad choices decisions like the last 10 years in India but the choice was there. People selected their reps bottom up not top down.

Dictatorship denies the people a voice . One man at the helm decides and assumes that what he feels is for the good of a nation & its people which is flawed. Pakistan is a wonderful example of how not to do things.

At least North Koreans are much better fed than Indians.

While India ranks at 65 among 79 nations ranked by the International Food Policy Research Institute on its hunger index, North Koreans are considerably ahead at 52 and Pakistanis at 57. The World Hunger data shows that India, which gets a free pass from the western media and active support of western and Russian governments to pursue its nuclear and space programs, is doing a poorer job of feeding its people than the North Koreans. Is this not hypocrisy to cite North Korean hunger as a reason to criticize its space program while lavishing praise on India whose citizens fare worse than North Korean citizens?

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[Mythal]

Comparing Dictatorship with Democracy is like :

- Comparing taking a short cut quick fix with doing the right thing.
- Comparing driving on the wrong side of the road with the right side of the road.

Dictatorship is like taking a steroid, it gives the victim a temporary feeling of well being but leaves permanent damage with life long side effects.

I will further expand it and say that Dictatorship is like driving on the wrong side of the road knowing that there is less traffic on that side. You may be able to get more speed and reach your destination faster but chances of accident happening is exponentially more and the accidents will also be far worse than anything that can happen to you while driving on the right side

 

[third eye]

At least North Koreans are much better fed than Indians.

While India ranks at 65 among 79 nations ranked by the International Food Policy Research Institute on its hunger index, North Koreans are considerably ahead at 52 and Pakistanis at 57. The World Hunger data shows that India, which gets a free pass from the western media and active support of western and Russian governments to pursue its nuclear and space programs, is doing a poorer job of feeding its people than the North Koreans. Is this not hypocrisy to cite North Korean hunger as a reason to criticize its space program while lavishing praise on India whose citizens fare worse than North Korean citizens?

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Is the best you could cut & paste to support Dictatorship over democracy ?

 

[Indos]

I will further expand it and say that Dictatorship is like driving on the wrong side of the road knowing that there is less traffic on that side. You may be able to get more speed and reach your destination faster but chances of accident happening is exponentially more and the accidents will also be far worse than anything that can happen to you while driving on the right side

Yup, its a good words. Our transition into democracy is a revolution, it can turn bloody if Soeharto refused to step down. With Pakistan has many guns inside their country, a chance to be another Syria can happen in the future if right now Pakistan want to change course once again. The critical point is when the nation want to have democracy while still stays in a dictatorship. It is a gamble.


@RiazHaq

 

[peacekeeper]

One who give away his/her freedom for security looses both....

 

[RiazHaq]

Yup, its a good words. Our transition into democracy is a revolution, it can turn bloody if Soeharto refused to step down. With Pakistan has many guns inside their country, a chance to be another Syria can happen in the future if right now Pakistan want to change course once again. The critical point is when the nation want to have democracy while still stays in a dictatorship. It is a gamble. @RiazHaq

Indonesia has seen far more bloodshed than Pakistan. Over half a million Indonesians died after Suharto's 1960s coup. It took a lot of bloodletting for Indonesia to get to where it is. That's the unfortunate part of any big change but postponing it is not an option because it too kills millions people from hunger, malnutrition and ill health as seen in democracies like India's.

It's estimated that 7000 Indians die of hunger every day and 200 million Indians go to bed hungry each night, according to bhookh.com

Hunger Facts | The Hunger Site for Facts: Bhookh.com

 

[third eye]

Does it matter if the reference to India in post No 36 above is totally out of context ?

The subject is Indonesia and an Indonesian is making a point relating to his country !

 

[Mythal]

Indonesia has seen far more bloodshed than Pakistan. Over half a million Indonesians died after Suharto's 1960s coup. It took a lot of bloodletting for Indonesia to get to where it is. That's the unfortunate part of any big change but postponing it is not an option because it too kills millions people from hunger, malnutrition and ill health as seen in democracies like India's.

It's estimated that 7000 Indians die of hunger every day and 200 million Indians go to bed hungry each night, according to bhookh.com

Hunger Facts | The Hunger Site for Facts: Bhookh.com

And democracy is to blame for this because? And how will a dictator help in the hunger problem. I think you are confusing capitalism with democracy and socialism with dictatorship.

 

[foxbat]

Load of nonsense by a dictatorship apologist. Forgetting the fact that 2 biggest fcuk ups of Pakistan that the Pakistani people are still paying for ; 1. Religious extremism 2. WoT happened in the times of the military dictators (Zia and Musharraf). Pakistan has stayed under democracy for half the time India has. By that logic it should an order of magnitude better on the Human development Indicators than India, where as in reality its actually been on a downward trajectory and has been downgraded to Low HDI from Medium HDI recently. Make what you must of that.

 

[RiazHaq]

And democracy is to blame for this because? And how will a dictator help in the hunger problem. I think you are confusing capitalism with democracy and socialism with dictatorship.

No, I am comparing the actual record of India, a democracy, and China, a dictatorship.

In recent history, Tienanmen Square was the scene of the Chinese government crackdown by the units of the People's Liberation Army (PLA) against mass students protests in 1989. Since the death of Chairman Mao and passing of the leadership to late Deng Xiaoping in 1980s, the Chinese communist party has pursued liberalizing the nation's economy without political liberalization, in the same way other East Asians did earlier. Such a strategy has allowed them to pursue rapid industrialization with accelerated economic growth over the last two decades, while forcefully controlling the chaos on the streets, to lift a record number people out of poverty. China's large neighbor India has failed to use a period of high economic growth to lift tens of millions of people out of poverty, falling far short of China’s record in protecting its population from the ravages of chronic hunger, United Nations officials said recently. Last year, British Development Minister Alexander contrasted the rapid growth in China with India's economic success - highlighting government figures that showed the number of poor people had dropped in the one-party communist state by 70% since 1990 but had risen in the world's biggest democracy by 5%.

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[Mythal]

No, I am comparing the actual record of India, a democracy, and China, a dictatorship.

In recent history, Tienanmen Square was the scene of the Chinese government crackdown by the units of the People's Liberation Army (PLA) against mass students protests in 1989. Since the death of Chairman Mao and passing of the leadership to late Deng Xiaoping in 1980s, the Chinese communist party has pursued liberalizing the nation's economy without political liberalization, in the same way other East Asians did earlier. Such a strategy has allowed them to pursue rapid industrialization with accelerated economic growth over the last two decades, while forcefully controlling the chaos on the streets, to lift a record number people out of poverty. China's large neighbor India has failed to use a period of high economic growth to lift tens of millions of people out of poverty, falling far short of China’s record in protecting its population from the ravages of chronic hunger, United Nations officials said recently. Last year, British Development Minister Alexander contrasted the rapid growth in China with India's economic success - highlighting government figures that showed the number of poor people had dropped in the one-party communist state by 70% since 1990 but had risen in the world's biggest democracy by 5%.

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Are you saying that India and China are in the exact same position except the form of government? Because you seem to be implying that if India had the same government model as China it will be in the same position.

 

[RiazHaq]

Are you saying that India and China are in the exact same position except the form of government? Because you seem to be implying that if India had the same government model as China it will be in the same position.

Both India and China started liberalization reform at the same time and look where they now.

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[RiazHaq]

Load of nonsense by a dictatorship apologist. Forgetting the fact that 2 biggest fcuk ups of Pakistan that the Pakistani people are still paying for ; 1. Religious extremism 2. WoT happened in the times of the military dictators (Zia and Musharraf). Pakistan has stayed under democracy for half the time India has. By that logic it should an order of magnitude better on the Human development Indicators than India, where as in reality its actually been on a downward trajectory and has been downgraded to Low HDI from Medium HDI recently. Make what you must of that.

Pakistan's HDI grew an average rate of 2.7% per year under President Musharraf from 2000 to 2007, and then its pace slowed to 0.7% per year in 2008 to 2012 under elected politicians, according to the 2013 Human Development Report titled “The Rise of the South: Human Progress in a Diverse World”.


Source: Human Development Report 2013-Pakistan



http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-3E8bXbEGY.../afg6ptzMyJE/s1600/Pakistan+HDI+2000-2011.jpg
At 0.515, Pakistan's HDI is lower than the average HDI value of 0.558 for South Asia which is the second lowest among the various regions of the world tracked by UNDP. Between 2000 and 2012, the region registered annual growth of 1.43% in HDI value, which is the highest of the regions. Afghanistan achieved the fastest growth (3.9%), followed by Pakistan (1.7%) and India (1.5%), according to the United Nations Development Program.


Overall, Pakistan's human development score rose by 18.9% during Musharraf years and increased just 3.4% under elected leadership since 2008. The news on the human development front got even worse in the last three years, with HDI growth slowing down as low as 0.59% — a paltry average annual increase of under 0.20 per cent.

Who's to blame for this dramatic slowdown in the nation's human development? Who gave it a low priority? Zardari? Peoples' Party? Sharif brothers? PML (N)? PML (Q)? Awami National Party? Muttahida Qaumi Movement? The answer is: All of them. They were all part of the government. In fact, the biggest share of the blame must be assigned to PML (N).

Sharif brothers weren't part of the ruling coalition at the center. So why should the PML (N) share the blame for falling growth in the nation's HDI? They must accept a large part of the blame because education and health, the biggest contributors to human development, are both provincial subjects and PML(N) was responsible for education and health care of more than half of Pakistan's population.

Going further back to the decade of 1990s when the civilian leadership of the country alternated between PML (N) and PPP, the increase in Pakistan's HDI was 9.3% from 1990 to 2000, less than half of the HDI gain of 18.9% on Musharraf's watch from 2000 to 2007.

Haq's Musings: Who's Better For Pak Human Development? Musharraf or Politicians?

 

[Mythal]

Both India and China started liberalization reform at the same time and look where they now.

Haq's Musings: Indian Economic Miracle is Deceptive!

So time and the form of government are the only thing that matters?

 

[foxbat]

Pakistan's HDI grew an average rate of 2.7% per year under President Musharraf from 2000 to 2007, and then its pace slowed to 0.7% per year in 2008 to 2012 under elected politicians, according to the 2013 Human Development Report titled “The Rise of the South: Human Progress in a Diverse World”.


Source: Human Development Report 2013-Pakistan



At 0.515, Pakistan's HDI is lower than the average HDI value of 0.558 for South Asia which is the second lowest among the various regions of the world tracked by UNDP. Between 2000 and 2012, the region registered annual growth of 1.43% in HDI value, which is the highest of the regions. Afghanistan achieved the fastest growth (3.9%), followed by Pakistan (1.7%) and India (1.5%), according to the United Nations Development Program.


Overall, Pakistan's human development score rose by 18.9% during Musharraf years and increased just 3.4% under elected leadership since 2008. The news on the human development front got even worse in the last three years, with HDI growth slowing down as low as 0.59% — a paltry average annual increase of under 0.20 per cent.

Who's to blame for this dramatic slowdown in the nation's human development? Who gave it a low priority? Zardari? Peoples' Party? Sharif brothers? PML (N)? PML (Q)? Awami National Party? Muttahida Qaumi Movement? The answer is: All of them. They were all part of the government. In fact, the biggest share of the blame must be assigned to PML (N).

Sharif brothers weren't part of the ruling coalition at the center. So why should the PML (N) share the blame for falling growth in the nation's HDI? They must accept a large part of the blame because education and health, the biggest contributors to human development, are both provincial subjects and PML(N) was responsible for education and health care of more than half of Pakistan's population.

Going further back to the decade of 1990s when the civilian leadership of the country alternated between PML (N) and PPP, the increase in Pakistan's HDI was 9.3% from 1990 to 2000, less than half of the HDI gain of 18.9% on Musharraf's watch from 2000 to 2007.

Haq's Musings: Who's Better For Pak Human Development? Musharraf or Politicians?

HDI indices are long term measures. The growth in those numbers during musharraf's time were a result of the period of democracy before he overthrew NS. The slump that you see in those numbers is the result of the policies of Musharraf for which there was no one to hold him accountable and were not checks and balances. Eduction rate of a country does not change in an year or so. Takes more like 5-10 years for a meaning ful impact to come in. What you do today, will show an impact 5 years down the line. Good or bad. I am sure an economist like you understands the concept of policy momentum and its impact. By same logic the slowdown during 1990-2000 was an outcome of Zia's regime where he injected hardline religious extremism in every day life of Pakistan