Comparing "Democracy" and "Dictatorship" Performance in Pakistan

[Cyberian]

Brother Riaz Haq, under the first military tyranny, the dollarised Pakistan Army lost half of the country back in 1971. Under the second military tyranny, the poodle Pakistan Army lost the Siachin Glacier and under the third military tyranny, the buzzdil Pakistan Army surrendered the whole country to the United States.

Brother, you talk about Pakistan's economy becoming the Asian Tiger under dictatorship, do you deliberately ignore the facts about billions of dollars of chanda that the dictatorship have always received for selling their country during their thug rule? While at the same time, democracy in Pakistan has always been punished with sanctions, murder of democratically elected Prime Ministers, exiles, death of thousands of Pakistanis and destruction of entire regions in Pakistan.

Why is it that Pakistan under dictatorship only becomes an Asian Tiger with a kashkol in hand? Are you looking forward to the Days of Kashkol again?

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Democracy only works in society that is enlighteneded by Education and awareness of good and evil.

We do not have that society in place , Pakistan is a nation of extreme poverty and ellite farmland owners and industrialist

The poor are forced to vote for Industrialist Or Land owners in return for job

Pakistan has a long way to go our people are uneducated , they go to Baba faqir for psychic solutions

Pakistan needs a leader like Musharaf who can make bold decisions and move country forward.
And also have ability to tackle militants with authority. Imran Khan is also a good candidate

Rest are bad choices

 

[RiazHaq]

@RiazHaq

The army should have no role in politics or as a matter of fact even economy. Like every where around the world their only job should be to protect country's borders. This fear that Army could do that or do this has forced the government to pay them handsomely. I would be worried giving them $11 Billion budget while history suggests we have lost all wars. We must change now

You "history" about losing all the wars is BS, as is your claim of $11 billion defense budget.

Haq's Musings: Inside Story: Pakistan Army at the Gates of Delhi in 1965 War?

Chinese Army, the PLA, played a huge role in rapid industrialization of China. Many major industries, including companies like Huawe, were started by PLA officer.

Pakistan's military should take a leaf from the Chinese PLA playbook. It should do what is necessary to strengthen the nation's industry, economy and national security, regardless of any critics, including Ayesha Siddiqa Agha and her myriad fans. This is the best way forward to a well-educated, industrialized, prosperous and democratic Pakistan in the future.

Haq's Musings: Pakistan Military Business and Industrial Revolution

Brother Riaz Haq, under the first military tyranny, the dollarised Pakistan Army lost half of the country back in 1971. Under the second military tyranny, the poodle Pakistan Army lost the Siachin Glacier and under the third military tyranny, the buzzdil Pakistan Army surrendered the whole country to the United States.

Brother, you talk about Pakistan's economy becoming the Asian Tiger under dictatorship, do you deliberately ignore the facts about billions of dollars of chanda that the dictatorship have always received for selling their country during their thug rule? While at the same time, democracy in Pakistan has always been punished with sanctions, murder of democratically elected Prime Ministers, exiles, death of thousands of Pakistanis and destruction of entire regions in Pakistan.

Why is it that Pakistan under dictatorship only becomes an Asian Tiger with a kashkol in hand? Are you looking forward to the Days of Kashkol again?

All of your claims are false.

Read Pakistan's economic history to learn that Pakistan has seen rapid economic and human development under military regimes, particularly the last one under Musharraf.

Haq's Musings: Musharraf Accelerated Financial and Human Capital Growth in Pakistan

 

[RiazHaq]

Read Pakistan's economic history to learn that Pakistan has seen rapid economic and human development under military regimes, particularly the last one under Musharraf.

Haq's Musings: Musharraf Accelerated Financial and Human Capital Growth in Pakistan

[/quote]

Brother Riaz Haq, under the first military tyranny, the dollarised Pakistan Army lost half of the country back in 1971. Under the second military tyranny, the poodle Pakistan Army lost the Siachin Glacier and under the third military tyranny, the buzzdil Pakistan Army surrendered the whole country to the United States.

Brother, you talk about Pakistan's economy becoming the Asian Tiger under dictatorship, do you deliberately ignore the facts about billions of dollars of chanda that the dictatorship have always received for selling their country during their thug rule? While at the same time, democracy in Pakistan has always been punished with sanctions, murder of democratically elected Prime Ministers, exiles, death of thousands of Pakistanis and destruction of entire regions in Pakistan.

Why is it that Pakistan under dictatorship only becomes an Asian Tiger with a kashkol in hand? Are you looking forward to the Days of Kashkol again?

It's obvious that you have no understanding of what it takes to achieve 6-7% GDP growth. It cetainly can not come from a billion dollar "chanda" because a billion dollars adds up to less than 1% of Pakistan GDP. To get 6% GDP growth, you need to investment 24% of GDP which is what happened in Musharraf years.

Read the following as a tutorial:

Haq's Musings: Declining Investment Hurting Pakistan Economic Growth

 

[Edevelop]

You "history" about losing all the wars is BS, as is your claim of $11 billion defense budget.

Haq's Musings: Inside Story: Pakistan Army at the Gates of Delhi in 1965 War?

Chinese Army, the PLA, played a huge role in rapid industrialization of China. Many major industries, including companies like Huawe, were started by PLA officer.

Pakistan's military should take a leaf from the Chinese PLA playbook. It should do what is necessary to strengthen the nation's industry, economy and national security, regardless of any critics, including Ayesha Siddiqa Agha and her myriad fans. This is the best way forward to a well-educated, industrialized, prosperous and democratic Pakistan in the future.

Haq's Musings: Pakistan Military Business and Industrial Revolution

East Pakistan, Kashmir, Siachen, or Kargil, please enlighten me what we gained ?

Now coming back to original discussion

PLA or whatever, we are not communists and we don't work like machines. Our Quaid was known as a proud democrat who lived by examples of the West. If we really need to follow someone's model, it should be Erdogan's Turkey. Perfect combination of East and West

You don't just come up with Industrialization. There are levels to improve human development and overall economic indicators . The British developed Agriculture in Punjab and left with just Punjab. Today it contributes to over 70% of our economy. You have no idea how beneficial this is long term. Do some research and you'll know countries like South Korea are buying lands in Madagascar ! Our priority should be to replicate Punjab's success in Sind and Balochistan where poor people would be better off self employed than being enslaved under corporations and waderas.

 

[Indos]

Indonesia can have good growth after 1969 is because the change of the government. We opened the market and also there are positive side effect of the raise of Yen during 80's for our industry. During 1945-1966 we had so many wars...we had to fight Dutch, British during that period. And even we had a war with Australia, British, New Zealand, Malaysia combined in 1960's.

If we look at the cart....its so clear that Democracy bring More Prosperity

 

[Counter-Errorist]

Well when was the democracy ever green a chance? There were some grey patches of Democracy when the public was fed up of dictators

We had 5 years of Zardari looting us to our boots and now the Sharif brothers have already racked up record debts. Wake me up when we have a democracy not lead by corrupt feudal lords.

Think about it, the parties representing democracy in Pakistan don't even consider establishing democratic structures within their own party systems. About a year ago, I used to think just like you. But over time I realized how unrealistic that viewpoint is.

Our entire culture is based on political patronage. People, down to every family in the country - they give more importance to their family members / kins / biradris over the nation. If someone's found to be a thief in your family, will you give him up for justice? No, you'll do whatever it takes to protect him. People in the west would give up their family members for the good of the country (generalizing a bit). Part of the reason for this is our complete lack of faith in the justice system, and for very good reasons. But it's mostly that we're a very family-oriented people.

And for the same reason, we chose to vote for people closest to us in kin rather than people best for the country. Sindhis vote for PPP, Punjabis for Noon League, Karachi for MQM, Pathans for ANP. It's of course more complex than that, and there are a few exceptions too. A Sindhi in an MQM controlled area will vote for MQM because MQM in power in Karachi will improve their own areas. But the reasons for choosing sides have always been on a personal rather than a national scale for people.

Imran Khan threw a wrench into this age old process. But, in my opinion, he's turned out to be weak and gullible.

Moreover, we're not in a position to experiment with democracy right now. Nawaz's government are business-friendly, sure. But we're on the brink of a civil war. And there's no civilian government strong enough to take action against the TTP. We are in a dire need of a government that can take forceful action against the TTP, or we could end up looking like Iraq.

 

[Jaanbaz]

There is no democracy in Pakistan. Its just the same families playing musical chairs with Pakistan. These idiots have destroyed Pakistan in their petty games of toppling each other.

 

[Bouncer]

Riaz Haq Sahib, I enjoy your uplifting articles. But I am disappointed by this one. There is no price for freedom, I know its a cliche to say but its true. I know many people on this forum will disagree with me, but I'd rather be poor under a democratic government than be a rich slave to fauji boots.

Now my second point, your report doesn't highlight the fact that ALL the military dictators in Pak were supported by US with generous military and economic aid. In my opinion, it wasn't good governance of these military strongmen that resulted in better economic performance, it was the aid and alms by uncle Sam that made them look good. If it were good governance, our economy wouldn't collapse every time with the demise of the most recent dictator.

Western nations struggled with democracy for decades and the result is for everyone to see and follow. Pakistan is on the right path now, we'll take some time but we'll get there. Lets leave a democratic society for children and grandchildren to live in. Otherwise after 40 years, they'll still be debating this "is dictatorship better for Pakistan?"

regards

 

[Chak Bamu]

Indonesia can have good growth after 1969 is because the change of the government. We opened the market and also there are positive side effect of the raise of Yen during 80's for our industry. During 1945-1966 we had so many wars...we had to fight Dutch, British during that period. And even we had a war with Australia, British, New Zealand, Malaysia combined in 1960's.

If we look at the cart....its so clear that Democracy bring More Prosperity

Do not tell this to @RiazHaq he does not want to know. He said similar things on another earlier thread. He quoted the example of Indonesia as developing during dictatorship. When I questioned his wrong criteria, he did not bother to answer at all.

Dictator supporters are tigers when the opposition is weak. When confronted well, they turn tail and run.

 

[third eye]

Comparing Dictatorship with Democracy is like :

- Comparing taking a short cut quick fix with doing the right thing.
- Comparing driving on the wrong side of the road with the right side of the road.

Dictatorship is like taking a steroid, it gives the victim a temporary feeling of well being but leaves permanent damage with life long side effects.

 

[GreenFalcon]

Democracy in Pakistan is like Monarchy and Dictatorship is like a revolution!!!!!

 

[RiazHaq]

Indonesia can have good growth after 1969 is because the change of the government. We opened the market and also there are positive side effect of the raise of Yen during 80's for our industry. During 1945-1966 we had so many wars...we had to fight Dutch, British during that period. And even we had a war with Australia, British, New Zealand, Malaysia combined in 1960's.

If we look at the cart....its so clear that Democracy bring More Prosperity

It was Suharto who laid the foundation for growth that occurred after him. He transformed the country from a poor backward rural society to a newly industrialized nation.

General Suharto stepped down 15 years ago tomorrow. Here's an excerpt of today's New York Times story on the Indonesian strongman's legacy:

"Mr. Suharto’s spirit continues to loom over modern-day Indonesia. He brought the country back from the brink of political, social and economic calamity in the mid-1960s,dramatically reduced poverty and by the early 1990s had turned Indonesia into one of the Asian tiger economies. But he also governed with an iron fist, sending his jackbooted military into separatist-minded regions, jailing and exiling political enemies, quashing democratic institutions and the news media, and presiding over what some claim is one of the most corrupt governments in modern history.....Tuesday is the 15th anniversary of Mr. Suharto’s resignation as president. .... Since then, Indonesia has undergone a dramatic transformation toward democracy and now has open elections and the world’s 16th-largest economy. Yet corruption remains endemic, crime is higher than during Mr. Suharto’s “New Order” regime, and Jakarta and other large cities have chronic traffic problems".

Haq's Musings: Looking Back at Military Rule in Indonesia and Pakistan

Comparing Dictatorship with Democracy is like :

- Comparing taking a short cut quick fix with doing the right thing.
- Comparing driving on the wrong side of the road with the right side of the road.

Dictatorship is like taking a steroid, it gives the victim a temporary feeling of well being but leaves permanent damage with life long side effects.

Here's what democracy is doing to India...condemning another generation to brain damage.

A British government report on child hunger and malnutrition in India says the nation is an "economic powerhouse" but a "nutritional weakling". Here is an excerpt from Times online story:

India is condemning another generation to brain damage, poor education and early death by failing to meet its targets for tackling the malnutrition that affects almost half of its children, a study backed by the British Government concluded yesterday.

The country is an “economic powerhouse but a nutritional weakling”, said the report by the British-based Institute of Development Studies (IDS), which incorporated papers by more than 20 India analysts. It said that despite India’s recent economic boom, at least 46 per cent of children up to the age of 3 still suffer from malnutrition, making the country home to a third of the world’s malnourished children. The UN defines malnutrition as a state in which an individual can no longer maintain natural bodily capacities such as growth, pregnancy, lactation, learning abilities, physical work and resisting and recovering from disease.

In 2001, India committed to the UN Millennium Development Goal of halving its number of hungry by 2015. China has already met its target. India, though, will not meet its goal until 2043, based on its current rate of progress, the IDS report concluded.

“It’s the contrast between India’s fantastic economic growth and its persistent malnutrition which is so shocking,” Lawrence Haddad, director of the IDS, told The Times. He said that an average of 6,000 children died every day in India; 2,000-3,000 of them from malnutrition.

Haq's Musings: Is India a Nutritional Weakling?

 

[Indos]

It was Suharto who laid the foundation for growth that occurred after him. He transformed the country from a poor backward rural society to a newly industrialized nation.

General Suharto stepped down 15 years ago tomorrow. Here's an excerpt of today's New York Times story on the Indonesian strongman's legacy:

I believe that some short of undemocratic government is needed at some time, particularly in the new nation. But, nevertheless, this kind of phase should be ended at one particular time so then we can move forward into democracy. And I also strongly believe that this is the time for Pakistan to move forward and embrace Democracy.

 

[third eye]

Here's what democracy is doing to India...condemning another generation to brain damage.

A British government report on child hunger and malnutrition in India says the nation is an "economic powerhouse" but a "nutritional weakling". Here is an excerpt from Times online story:

India is condemning another generation to brain damage, poor education and early death by failing to meet its targets for tackling the malnutrition that affects almost half of its children, a study backed by the British Government concluded yesterday.

The country is an “economic powerhouse but a nutritional weakling”, said the report by the British-based Institute of Development Studies (IDS), which incorporated papers by more than 20 India analysts. It said that despite India’s recent economic boom, at least 46 per cent of children up to the age of 3 still suffer from malnutrition, making the country home to a third of the world’s malnourished children. The UN defines malnutrition as a state in which an individual can no longer maintain natural bodily capacities such as growth, pregnancy, lactation, learning abilities, physical work and resisting and recovering from disease.

In 2001, India committed to the UN Millennium Development Goal of halving its number of hungry by 2015. China has already met its target. India, though, will not meet its goal until 2043, based on its current rate of progress, the IDS report concluded.

“It’s the contrast between India’s fantastic economic growth and its persistent malnutrition which is so shocking,” Lawrence Haddad, director of the IDS, told The Times. He said that an average of 6,000 children died every day in India; 2,000-3,000 of them from malnutrition.

Haq's Musings: Is India a Nutritional Weakling?

A poor example.

Nations like N Korea have been authoritarian all along and where do they stand ?

What does nutrition have to do with the essentials of running a nation ? The basic issue is that do the people have a say or voice in electing their leaders ? Yes, there may be bad choices decisions like the last 10 years in India but the choice was there. People selected their reps bottom up not top down.

Dictatorship denies the people a voice . One man at the helm decides and assumes that what he feels is for the good of a nation & its people which is flawed. Pakistan is a wonderful example of how not to do things.