COMMENT : Democracy and Indian Muslims

[Soumitra]

So you call 400 million Muslim Indians as secular people like the ones who worship rocks ,monkeys, elephants, almost in every animal but their creator you must be secran(drank)not secular

Does secularism mean monotheism?

since the latter word points to the respect of others and their faiths or their views -as long as they do not pose any moral or physical threat to the society they live in or belong to-, that Islam has practiced successfuly for more than a thousand years of world governance .

Do you want me to recall the number of terrorist attacks the followers of the Religion of Peace been involved in? and also what they invoke when they do such attacks?

And as for moral threats to the society do you want me to list the laughable fatwas from the scholars of the religion of peace who cant understand that they live in 21st century India and not 14th century Arabia

 

[The SC]

Soumitra;4145392]Does secularism mean monotheism?

No, it is explained in my comment; respect of other's believes...

Do you want me to recall the number of terrorist attacks the followers of the Religion of Peace been involved in? and also what they invoke when they do such attacks?

Those attacks are infinitesimal when compared to the real terrorist attacks by the West on whole nations of the religion of peace, killing millions of innocent people, if you look at it this way you will clearly see that Muslims everywhere are peaceful, but what would you do as a Hindu, a Christian or any other faith if you are under constant threat and dangerous attack, would you not react to at least save your life and your beloved ones?
So if a Muslim reacts for self-defence he is immediately called a terrorist - a term coined by the first Jewish settlers in Palestine themselves, see Stern an Irgun terrorist groups-.
So to understand the whole problem, one has to find out who started the hatred and the killings, because every creature has an instinct of self preservation and mechanisms of self-defence, can you call them terrorists?

And as for moral threats to the society do you want me to list the laughable fatwas from the scholars of the religion of peace who cant understand that they live in 21st century India and not 14th century Arabia

To tell you the truth I am not aware of these fatwas, but for me a leading man of religion in Islam is usually a scholar in religion and in other fields, and I think that these ones in India that you point to are reflecting their surroundings and the type of society they live in. India has produced some highly estimated Muslim intellectuals and scientists - you whole missile program has an Indian Muslim behind it-, and it has produced other kinds of course; even the majority Muslim nations have their brilliant and not so brilliant mullahs as you call them.

 

[The SC]

priti

ok now i get it.. you just dont know the meaning of secularism , thats all.

So please enlighten us with your Yindou definition of secularism, we'll put all the other definitions aside while waiting for yours.

 

[Hulk]

Some people think that democracy is some sort of "silver bullet" that can fix everything.

My city HK has never been a democracy, we have never had universal suffrage. Ever. Yet we have the 2nd highest life expectancy on Earth, an HDI ranking above western European countries like Britain/France/Spain, and one of the highest incomes in the world.

True, democracies statistically have done better, but it depends on their implementation. And it is certainly not a silver bullet, look at authoritarian Singapore vs the Democratic Republic of the Congo for instance.



Wow, I can't believe the author said that as well.

There is no harm in admitting our mistakes and adopting something better. The kings and Nawabs were problem and through British the power from Kings went to the people and that is the big difference. Ancient India was ruled by Kings modern India is democratic, we adopted good things from west so be it. Its good for the country that is what matters.

 

[Hulk]

Indian democracy is a sham in accordance to the concepts of greek democracy or even western democracy.

The west gives these mental slaves a few kind words and they pledge to work harder for their mental master.

How pathetic...

Indian democracy is not perfect but it is progressive, we are getting better by the day. We use to have large scale rigging in elections not anymore, we use to have criminals winning elections they still win but in lesser numbers, riots were common not that much anymore. People are more aware on how to use votes and because of media it is not easy to ignore common man. Arvind Kejriwal and Anna Hazare forces government to look at people's interest. Things are changing and in a decade a lot will change.

How is Pakistan doing democracy or otherwise how is governance there?

 

[Soumitra]

Those attacks are infinitesimal when compared to the real terrorist attacks by the West on whole nations of the religion of peace, killing millions of innocent people, if you look at it this way you will clearly see that Muslims everywhere are peaceful, but what would you do as a Hindu, a Christian or any other faith if you are under constant threat and dangerous attack, would you not react to at least save your life and your beloved ones?
So if a Muslim reacts for self-defence he is immediately called a terrorist - a term coined by the first Jewish settlers in Palestine themselves, see Stern an Irgun terrorist groups-.
So to understand the whole problem, one has to find out who started the hatred and the killings, because every creature has an instinct of self preservation and mechanisms of self-defence, can you call them terrorists?

If west is attacking Muslim nations then why are Muslims killing other Muslims like what is happening in Pakistan? Surely that is not " self defence " and you forget that the west started attacking Muslim nations after 9/11. If you attack them then you should be ready for a retaliation.

To tell you the truth I am not aware of these fatwas, but for me a leading man of religion in Islam is usually a scholar in religion and in other fields, and I think that these ones in India that you point to are reflecting their surroundings and the type of society they live in. India has produced some highly estimated Muslim intellectuals and scientists - you whole missile program has an Indian Muslim behind it-, and it has produced other kinds of course; even the majority Muslim nations have their brilliant and not so brilliant mullahs as you call them.

I am talking about fatwas like ban on co educational institutes, girls have to wear full face veil in public, ban on music and dance as these are haram, you can do talaq over SMS, don't buy vegetables like carrots and radish because they can lead to sexual thoughts

And as for your contention about Dr. kalam , he is the most respected Muslim in the country and by far the most admired President.

He is a scholar who is also a Muslim and not a Muslim scholar who claims to be an expert on Islam.

 

[The SC]

If west is attacking Muslim nations then why are Muslims killing other Muslims like what is happening in Pakistan? Surely that is not " self defence " and you forget that the west started attacking Muslim nations after 9/11. If you attack them then you should be ready for a retaliation.

Maybe you were born in the period of the 9/11 witch has been proven without any reasonable doubt that it was a false flag attack with the prime objective of rallying Western public opinion for attacking two Muslim countries, namely Iraq and Afghanistan (both with huge natural resources), if you say otherwise than you'll have to argue with the British prime minister an American president GWBush plus their highest ranking generals who have recognized their intelligence mistakes and failures in assessing reality and the fact that they all have lied, indicating that they recognized at last that they were manipulated into those wars.
But the war against Islam started since its inception; the prophet of Islam has fought himself to defend it.
You forgot the French the Brits and their colonies in the Muslim world, with nefarious consequences up till today in Palestine and elsewhere.When the Muslims invaded Europe or other parts of the world upon request from oppressed people living there, they carved the words civilisation, justice and peace on the rocks of history and it lasted more than a thousand years.
To give you a concrete example of the power of this faith on its own, is the case of the greatest invader of all time "Gingis Khan", who's three out of four of his most powerful states converted to Islam including his sons and he died with a mind set very close to Islam, all this after him coming in contact -by invasions- with the Muslim world.

I am talking about fatwas like ban on co educational institutes, girls have to wear full face veil in public, ban on music and dance as these are haram, you can do talaq over SMS, don't buy vegetables like carrots and radish because they can lead to sexual thoughts

Well, if I refer to the number of girls being sexually assaulted in India, and how women are being treated there, I can understand their Fatwas concerning their own people. As for Music and dance, they are like wine, they taste good but they have nefarious consequences if one abuses them, and when the unemployed have nothing to do they can abuse music and dance and mix it with alcohol and drugs leading to promiscuity, so it can lead to a dangerous cocktail for society as a whole, so it is better to prevent it, and for Muslims, to read the Koran is a form of substitute that keeps one out of harmway by reminding one that there are other things to life than the physical instincts mainly of sex, so nothing is wrong with that, because music and appropriate dance are not prohibited by Islam, but rather warned against their abuse and what comes from it, exactly like alcohol which is explicitly forbidden in Islam.

And as for your contention about Dr. kalam , he is the most respected Muslim in the country and by far the most admired President.

He is a scholar who is also a Muslim and not a Muslim scholar who claims to be an expert on Islam.

You are right on Dr Kalam;
Only Muslim scholars in Islamic studies can claim -eventhough, with some reserve- that they are experts on Islam, but I was referring to a very few who combine expertise in scientific fields with expertise in Islamic studies and we call them Ullamas (The knowledgeables) not mullahs.

 

[Soumitra]

Maybe you were born in the period of the 9/11 witch has been proven without any reasonable doubt that it was a false flag attack with the prime objective of rallying Western public opinion for attacking two Muslim countries, namely Iraq and Afghanistan (both with huge natural resources), if you say otherwise than you'll have to argue with the British prime minister an American president GWBush plus their highest ranking generals who have recognized their intelligence mistakes and failures in assessing reality and the fact that they all have lied, indicating that they recognized at last that they were manipulated into those wars.
But the war against Islam started since its inception; the prophet of Islam has fought himself to defend it.
You forgot the French the Brits and their colonies in the Muslim world, with nefarious consequences up till today in Palestine and elsewhere.When the Muslims invaded Europe or other parts of the world upon request from oppressed people living there, they carved the words civilisation, justice and peace on the rocks of history and it lasted more than a thousand years.
To give you a concrete example of the power of this faith on its own, is the case of the greatest invader of all time "Gingis Khan", who's three out of four of his most powerful states converted to Islam including his sons and he died with a mind set very close to Islam, all this after him coming in contact -by invasions- with the Muslim world.

Leaving aside your rant of 9/11 being a false flag operation (this is true only in the minds of conspiracy theorists who would believe that America will kill 3000 of its civilians just to start 2 wars) you still not answered why Muslims are killing Muslims in countries like Pakistan and Syria.

Rest of the post is the famous Victim mentality of Muslims and how Islam is the greatest thing on earth.

Well, if I refer to the number of girls being sexually assaulted in India, and how women are being treated there, I can understand their Fatwas concerning their own people. As for Music and dance, they are like wine, they taste good but they have nefarious consequences if one abuses them, and when the unemployed have nothing to do they can abuse music and dance and mix it with alcohol and drugs leading to promiscuity, so it can lead to a dangerous cocktail for society as a whole, so it is better to prevent it, and for Muslims, to read the Koran is a form of substitute that keeps one out of harmway by reminding one that there are other things to life than the physical instincts mainly of sex, so nothing is wrong with that, because music and appropriate dance are not prohibited by Islam, but rather warned against their abuse and what comes from it, exactly like alcohol which is explicitly forbidden in Islam.

Yes wearing a burqa prevents rapes because after that you have to call 4 male witnesses to testify to your rape otherwise you have committed adultery and then you get 100 lashes even if your own father had made you pregnant. Really Progressive.

As for music, Dress Sense or Women's Rights I strongly suggest you see this video clip from a Pakistani Film Khuda Kay Liye

You are right on Dr Kalam;
Only Muslim scholars in Islamic studies can claim -eventhough, with some reserve- that they are experts on Islam, but I was referring to a very few who combine expertise in scientific fields with expertise in Islamic studies and we call them Ullamas (The knowledgeables) not mullahs.

I am glad we agree on Dr. Kalam. But can you give me any example of Ullamas who combine expertise in scientific fields with expertise in Islamic studies

 

[shiv]

after going through this thread, all hindus should solemnly pledge that they would kill a muslim everyday before breakfast ! LOL

 

[anonymus]

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[RazPaK]

Indian democracy is not perfect but it is progressive, we are getting better by the day. We use to have large scale rigging in elections not anymore, we use to have criminals winning elections they still win but in lesser numbers, riots were common not that much anymore. People are more aware on how to use votes and because of media it is not easy to ignore common man. Arvind Kejriwal and Anna Hazare forces government to look at people's interest. Things are changing and in a decade a lot will change.

How is Pakistan doing democracy or otherwise how is governance there?

So far democracy has failed in Pakistan.

 

[The SC]

Leaving aside your rant of 9/11 being a false flag operation (this is true only in the minds of conspiracy theorists who would believe that America will kill 3000 of its civilians just to start 2 wars) you still not answered why Muslims are killing Muslims in countries like Pakistan and Syria.

Rest of the post is the famous Victim mentality of Muslims and how Islam is the greatest thing on earth.



Yes wearing a burqa prevents rapes because after that you have to call 4 male witnesses to testify to your rape otherwise you have committed adultery and then you get 100 lashes even if your own father had made you pregnant. Really Progressive.

As for music, Dress Sense or Women's Rights I strongly suggest you see this video clip from a Pakistani Film Khuda Kay Liye

I am glad we agree on Dr. Kalam. But can you give me any example of Ullamas who combine expertise in scientific fields with expertise in Islamic studies

The Ullamas I have described are too numerous to list to you and it won't be wise to list them publicly, but you can educate yourself on Islam in its natural course (not in a permanent state of war) and try to find some, your knowledge of Islam stops at Pakistan, while the Muslim world is very vast, it is about 10 to 20 times the size of India.

As for the 9/11, you are treating the majority of the Americans and a substantial number of Europeans apart from rest of the world as conspiracy theorists.

Muslims can never beat yindous in drama it is you speciality number one, you are victims of your own poor mentality, but the most disturbing fact about yindous is their pretence to knowledge, and the truth my is that it is the west who holds your lives(you electronics manufacturing) and intellect in its hands (you got all your nuclear knowledge and your continued research from the West that the Muslims have civilized),I do not base my opinions on movies, so there is no point of continuing this discussion since you are very biased about Islam, but coming from ignorant men it is understandable. I told you about rape and bad treatments you apply to your women and you are talking about about fantasies in your head from a movie.
No bad feelings, just reality.

 

[Soumitra]

The Ullamas I have described are too numerous to list to you and it won't be wise to list them publicly, but you can educate yourself on Islam in its natural course (not in a permanent state of war) and try to find some, your knowledge of Islam stops at Pakistan, while the Muslim world is very vast, it is about 10 to 20 times the size of India.

As for the 9/11, you are treating the majority of the Americans and a substantial number of Europeans apart from rest of the world as conspiracy theorists.

Muslims can never beat yindous in drama it is you speciality number one, you are victims of your own poor mentality, but the most disturbing fact about yindous is their pretence to knowledge, and the truth my is that it is the west who holds your lives(you electronics manufacturing) and intellect in its hands (you got all your nuclear knowledge and your continued research from the West that the Muslims have civilized),I do not base my opinions on movies, so there is no point of continuing this discussion since you are very biased about Islam, but coming from ignorant men it is understandable. I told you about rape and bad treatments you apply to your women and you are talking about about fantasies in your head from a movie.
No bad feelings, just reality.

I have only 1 question. Have you watched the particular Video?

There is a reason I gave a video from a Pakistani film because you will find that it has not a view of evil Indian Yindoos but of pious Pakistani Muslims

 

[Vinod2070]

A Pakistani writer also wrote something similar:

We should be grateful that some Muslims remained in India and learned to compete. These Muslims are going to compete internationally and give us something to be proud of while our elites in Pakistan, who shun excellence and hard work, maintain their privilege and extravagance

Many of us watched the Oscars with a lump in our throats when AR Rehman was given a standing ovation by the American movie establishment. Rehman, a Muslim from a country we don’t consider friendly to Muslims, was eulogised by the Hollywood establishment, traditionally controlled by those of the Jewish persuasion. Rehman’s obvious talent overwhelmed them all. Jai ho!

Though I completely disagree with the basic premise that Pakistani Muslims have anything to do with us or any part of our population, of any religion.

We are two very different countries with nothing in common now.

At least nothing that really matters.

We have nothing against Pakistan and we don't want to have anything more with it anymore than with Timbuktu.

Just basic civilized behavior and avoiding obsessing with us will be good enough. They may not watch our movies/TV, may not trade with us as much as they want. These are not obligations of any nation towards others.

The one obligation is not to send terrorists to kill our people.

 

[Vinod2070]

I will believe in Indian Democracy when Naredra Modi is hanged for his crimes. Till then it is not Indian Democracy but Indian Hypocrisy.

Thanks but not sure what makes you think you are qualified to comment on things like democracy and secularism?

Or that we give a damn to what you "believe"!