Coercion Sabotage Or Incompetence :---

[dy1022]

J10B brings nothing to PAF, Mighty PAF has F16,JF17, enough to deal with IAF's Rafale, SU-30MKI etc...

 

[salman-1]

I think PAF should be put a pistol on her head and made them buy this thing ASAP like mushi made them buy Zdk-03 and now PAF is happy with it.

 

[MastanKhan]

Shortage of funds, National priorities and last choice stop gap option JF17. Pakistan exports are rock bottom after terrorism. Whole investment drained out. Business class left the country. And the list goes on and on and on...... No one to blame, it's " we" Pakistani .

Sir,

Please read my post again in reference to the ACM's statements---where he talks of pursuing aircraft---in relation to that there is no shortage of funds---.

So---please don't make that up on your own----. Thank you.

 

[CHACHA"G"]

Shortage of funds, National priorities and last choice stop gap option JF17. Pakistan exports are rock bottom after terrorism. Whole investment drained out. Business class left the country. And the list goes on and on and on...... No one to blame, it's " we" Pakistani .

I was not expecting this from you , shortage of funds !!! May I ask When??????????
As I said many times before Money wasn't the problem , Problem was and is "thinking , Mindset , War Planning" and Availability" .
USA offered us 2Saq of new F-16 Block 52 but PAF gave money for earth relief Fund . For same relief fund we got Billion of $$$$$$$$ from all over the world , but PAF gave there important Money away !!!!!!! Now would you please show me those Schools , Hospitals and Roads which we rebuild from the money that PAF donated.
And on the other hand we cant even buy 8 of new F-16 now reason is Availability. List is very long.
And again for all those who said J-10 will not bring any thing new and JF-17 is equal to F-16 . Come one Time to weak up . No matter how great goodies we fix in JF-17 It will still remain Light Multi Role Aircraft , Only because of its Air frame .
Before some one here come after me , Let me say , I Love this bird and I consider this as blessing . But I also want PAF to move on , Next setup should be Medium Seize Bird and then Heavy.....

 

[HAIDER]

I was not expecting this from you , shortage of funds !!! May I ask When??????????
As I said many times before Money wasn't the problem , Problem was and is "thinking , Mindset , War Planning" and Availability" .
USA offered us 2Saq of new F-16 Block 52 but PAF gave money for earth relief Fund . For same relief fund we got Billion of $$$$$$$$ from all over the world , but PAF gave there important Money away !!!!!!! Now would you please show me those Schools , Hospitals and Roads which we rebuild from the money that PAF donated.
And on the other hand we cant even buy 8 of new F-16 now reason is Availability. List is very long.
And again for all those who said J-10 will not bring any thing new and JF-17 is equal to F-16 . Come one Time to weak up . No matter how great goodies we fix in JF-17 It will still remain Light Multi Role Aircraft , Only because of its Air frame .
Before some one here come after me , Let me say , I Love this bird and I consider this as blessing . But I also want PAF to move on , Next setup should be Medium Seize Bird and then Heavy.....

When Gen Musharraf diverted the F16 procurement funds toward earth quake victims in Kashmir. Reduced the number of F16 half. Pakistan always buy subsidized product. Imagine last year Pak unable to pay 600 million dollars for new F sola.

Sir,

Please read my post again in reference to the ACM's statements---where he talks of pursuing aircraft---in relation to that there is no shortage of funds---.

So---please don't make that up on your own----. Thank you.

Sir ji ... read today IMF report about Pakistan. You will feel sorry for ACM. Yeah sure we have enough fun, can t pay few millions for brand new subsidized F16 last year....
Pakistan lost over 2 billion in reserve in last few weeks.
Fiscal deficit widens as IMF warns of challenges ahead
Khaleeq KianiUpdated 2 days ago

 

[Mentee]

And what can be said about the person who denies the credibility of its own armed force...

raw agent ! Or whatever it is ----- you talk about credibility ? Well, there isn't any left to begin with.

J10B brings nothing to PAF, Mighty PAF has F16,JF17, enough to deal with IAF's Rafale, SU-30MKI etc...

generating an amount of 5 billion $ to buy conventional weapons , which could keep the adversary at bay is nothing for a nation like Pakistan. But no, We'd rather opt for a national suicide and in the process have our genetic stock obliterated as well.

 

[CHACHA"G"]

When Gen Musharraf diverted the F16 procurement funds toward earth quake victims in Kashmir. Reduced the number of F16 half. Pakistan always buy subsidized product. Imagine last year Pak unable to pay 600 million dollars for new F sola.


Sir ji ... read today IMF report about Pakistan. You will feel sorry for ACM. Yeah sure we have enough fun, can t pay few millions for brand new subsidized F16 last year....
Pakistan lost over 2 billion in reserve in last few weeks.
Fiscal deficit widens as IMF warns of challenges ahead
Khaleeq KianiUpdated 2 days ago

Last year ones were not subsidized USA want us to pay full and the package we want made that deal hell expensive !!!
And for ACM , Who stopped him to come on TV or on any media and cry out loud about PAF and new Aircrafts ? Have you ever seen IAF chief and there media cell ? They always cry like they have 0000 Aircrafts !!!! Don't you think its time when our chiefs at least say the truth (even sugar quoted). Instead of "Its not the machine but the man behind it"

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

Hi,

That is a very interesting post---much bluster and no substance---.

Funny isn't it---that when viewed from two different perches----one shows your point of view---the other shows my point of view.

The difference is that your perch has a built in distortion screen which is preventing you from looking at the real issues---.

Mine has no built in restrictions.

Your perch is Lord knows where, where mine comes from years of service.

was it a try to show the civilian posters of this board their okaat? Lemme tell you somthing Mr 100% ,securing a roll number in the military school doesn't make you something out of this cosmos---

Everyone has his own personal interests so , if I or anyone for that matter is not a part of the armed forces, this thing doesn't warrant you to ridicule others . like in the case of Mastan khan and other learned posters , When these ex-servicemen and their civilian bootlickers (in their quest for some "inside info" , so they could stand with a beam inside their necks among other posters) couldn't provide any satisfactory explanation as to why our airforce had failed miserably to procure the much needed weapons in a timely manner? besides the plethora of blunders it brushed away under the carpet, only come up with personal insults.

" how dare a car sales man point finger at us "

"he prolly might had been dropped out of the issb" and other bla bla bla -------

P:S not been a fan of airplanes but only choppers so never been to any air show let Alone applying for the air force . Do I like army ? Yes! But never applied there as well . After all one can serve the nation by sticking to his field of interest,no?


sir we don't have funds , Bangladesh is in the league of first world countries. They can operate twin engine jets but not we. Furthermore j10-b or any inter-intergalactic craft doesn't bring anything new to our sorry excuse of a table ---------

I dont know what you are angry about, or why you need to jump in our own funny, consistent, and amusing belligerence between MK and myself.

Bhai sahib the world has moved lot further, it's not 80s and 90s anymore, this is a 21st century, PAF can't make people fool anymore with all the old shit about pilot skills. What the eff pilot s supposed to do if adversary is adding the best from right left and centre. No matter how patriotic and bigger fan of PAF I am, I just can't can't ignore the reality.

We had the qualitatively advantage in the past but we have already lost it and lost it miserably.

What makes you think the qualitative advantage is in the past, or whats in development, and in plans?

 

[Mentee]

I dont know what you are angry about, or why you need to jump in our own funny, consistent, and amusing belligerence between MK and myself.

taking into the account the deplorable war readiness of paf, the enemy is itching to blow the war horn at any time . So, things are not amusing at all.

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

taking into the account the deplorable war readiness of paf, the enemy is itching to blow the war horn at any time . So, things are not amusing at all.

Can you talk in objective terms "deplorable war readiness"? I find your subjective and broad stroke generalizations most amusing.

View attachment 389606 View attachment 389607 View attachment 389608 I think PAF should be put a pistol on her head and made them buy this thing ASAP like mushi made them buy Zdk-03 and now PAF is happy with it.

Beautiful bird, but already tested and analyzed. PAF is after something else. As JFT settles in to replace all legacy aircraft, a NGF for future. Thats the goal.

Bhai sahib the world has moved lot further, it's not 80s and 90s anymore, this is a 21st century, PAF can't make people fool anymore with all the old shit about pilot skills. What the eff pilot s supposed to do if adversary is adding the best from right left and centre. No matter how patriotic and bigger fan of PAF I am, I just can't can't ignore the reality.

We had the qualitatively advantage in the past but we have already lost it and lost it miserably.

So someone ridiculing PAF as ostriches is okay, but my response is not okay? In the civilized world, this is called bias.

 

[Mentee]

Can you talk in objective terms "deplorable war readiness"? I find your subjective and broad stroke generalizations most amusing.

nations fight wars to add pecuniary and military might to their national muscles by capturing some extra miles of enemy land .

if someone could see beyond the smoke screen created by our military establishment, will definitely voice his apprehensions as to why this contentment on just being saved from the enemy onslaught ?

and if by luck we managed to survive the much anticipated war , then a whole new generation of fan boys could be fed with another round of sob stories like,


dushman ny rat ki tareeki m hamla kr k apnay daant khatty kr va ley and we didn't let the enemy to get an inch of our motherland .

eday imbli valay bumb

 

[Taygibay]

Shortage of funds, National priorities and last choice stop gap option JF17. Pakistan exports are rock bottom after terrorism. Whole investment drained out. Business class left the country. And the list goes on and on and on...... No one to blame, it's " we" Pakistani .

Sir,

Please read my post again in reference to the ACM's statements---where he talks of pursuing aircraft---in relation to that there is no shortage of funds---.

As JFT settles in to replace all legacy aircraft, a NGF for future. Thats the goal.

Apart from Bilal, all of you seem to have forgotten
something that happened a mere 3 years prior ...
which suddenly makes me wonder if all of you are not less than 30 years old.

In 1998, there was a rather intense divide with America
after Pakistan's nuclear trials. The recoil from that was
barely dissipated by 9-11 time but the correcting strategy
was already active : diversify sources to protect from sanctions,
build a backbone fighter force that can be made here, etc.
That's where and when the goal Bilal mentions came from.

You could say it was a tactical error not to buy then but as
a strategic imperative, it was as potent and motivated as
such can be at the time. Almost an allergic reaction?

So, Coercion, Sabotage or Incompetence? Likely neither of.
Call it a glitch or simply consider that history is made of
these timely decisions; blame actually doesn't need apply.


All the best to you and yours, Tay.

 

[The Accountant]

Yet another tirade by MK. No substance, only conjecture, assumption, and pipe vision theories.

Sir i do respect you and other seniors with experience and knowledge ... i also think Mastan Khan is not entierly correct but he is not entierly wrong ...

We as follow Pakistani need an explanation ... we could have force US to release aircraft promissed earlier for which they already had the funds ...

At that time we could have even gone for f15s ... while india was making deal for 272 MKIs and tejas program ... we went for thunders only which is a great program but can counter tejas and migs and mirrages within borders only whereas we have not a single proper response against MKI ... f16s are good but limited by numbers future upgrades and restriction ...



So we expect better explanation from seniors who have better knowledge and vision ... furthermore it is never too late for accepting mistakes as they are part of life ... we still love PAF ... we always will

 

[Qutb-ud-din Aybak]

Mastan Saab

Like to add one more leaf --- Pakistan could have asked 4 Sqns of F16 for Osama Bin Laden from US ?
after Sep 11 Hand Shake...

Holding Yanks by their Balls for issues which impacted their Presidency

Easily your Nation could have mopped up 150 Jet(s) + weapons !! with these 2 Deals

US weapons have lot of conditions, and the source codes are also problem.
Pakistan airforce now a days is strictly against imports and are trying to make everything at home. Work is already going on. Air force had started it's own R & D and officers education programs to have most of their men atleast with Masters degrees.
1998 arm embargo was the first step when we realized and started our R&D. then SAAB 2000 destroyed by terrorists had put a stamp on self reliance plans. SAAB had offered to restore the destroyed aircraft for 250 million dollars but PAF did it in just few millions and that too with improved technology.
Even chinese systems are expensive when it comes to the unit cost of the technology including R & D.
A 10 crore equipment can easily be designed and produced in 3-4 millions only.
The biggest problem with imports is source codes and other designs. When you buy something you are mostly not allowed to open the boxes and you will have to wait months for the manufacturer to come and do maintainace work for you. Your imported radars can be mde useless and jets could lose control or can be made unable to differentiate between friends and foes.

But the biggest hurdles in R&D is that many equipmnts can't be manufactured locally like IC's ( which can be used for military purposes), job can easily be done using small ic's but they are not available commercially, or many other such things are not available to developing countries. even developed countries have to buy them from US.
but despite this unavailabity of components there are always alternatives like trained and educated manpower. The same VLSI design available in any IC can be implemented using any commercially available equipment with some efforts which would be atleast 20 times cheaper in price.

I was not expecting this from you , shortage of funds !!! May I ask When??????????
As I said many times before Money wasn't the problem , Problem was and is "thinking , Mindset , War Planning" and Availability" .
USA offered us 2Saq of new F-16 Block 52 but PAF gave money for earth relief Fund . For same relief fund we got Billion of $$$$$$$$ from all over the world , but PAF gave there important Money away !!!!!!! Now would you please show me those Schools , Hospitals and Roads which we rebuild from the money that PAF donated.
And on the other hand we cant even buy 8 of new F-16 now reason is Availability. List is very long.
And again for all those who said J-10 will not bring any thing new and JF-17 is equal to F-16 . Come one Time to weak up . No matter how great goodies we fix in JF-17 It will still remain Light Multi Role Aircraft , Only because of its Air frame .
Before some one here come after me , Let me say , I Love this bird and I consider this as blessing . But I also want PAF to move on , Next setup should be Medium Seize Bird and then Heavy.....

I heard that JF 17 avionics are better than Pakistan's F 16's. F 16's meanovouribilty is better than JF 17.

 

[khanmubashir]

Hi,

The question I have been thinking for over the last 15 1/2 years since 9 / 11 and I could not find a reasonable answer to that is---" why did the Paf not buy a potent fighter aircraft right after agreeing to the alliance with the USA after sept 26---9 / 11.

The F16's were in a sorry state---almost ready to fall out of the skies---. Paf had woefully depleted assets due to sanctions---it did not even show up for a major battle happening at Kargil---and yet when the opportune moment arrived---there was no urgency shown to make the dash to get the aircraft.

Was the Paf worried that if they procured the right aircraft---the army would start a war with india---?

Was the Paf scared of engaging the indian air force if the army got into a war---?

Or was it coerced by another " party " to hold on tight and do nothing.

As the tale of coercion of Gen Kiyani with the U S govt is coming out---was there a similar action taking place between the Paf generals and the U S---was the U S forcing them to sit tight---or the Pakistan air force decided on its own not to build parity against the enemy air force assets---?

It is a baffling issue---an air force that was desperate yesterday and begging for the removal sanctions so desperately---so that they could get the right aircraft to protect the nation---did not avail the opportunity for 4 years and 6 months to sign the deal for the right aircraft---.

It is just like a heart patient desperately begging for heart surgery for 10 + years refusing to get it when it becomes available---.

f16 is a proven reliable weapon check usaf decision to keep em till 2040 with upgrades and usaf has also decided to replace aging f15 c/d blocks with f16s since f22 line is shut down plan is to use less f35 f22 with upgraded f16 and f15s and f16s r far more then f15 until f35 order is completed that would take decades
we r making our own 4gen jf17 atleast block3 and onwards would b true 4+ jet no point of wasting $ on expensive new 4 g jet that would take decade to incoporate into paf and b far more epensive then f16s r good for air and their ver low crash level is proof of it now we should focus on improving jf17 and dvp or purchase of 5th gen jet of which tfx and j31 r options no point of wasting $ like indians which would affect our 5 gen program as is alread affecting indian 1