COAS Gen Bajwa intends to cut army strength of 5,38,000 substantially over next 5 years

[Sayfullah]

Our Mechanised forces are already to far stretched to be down sized. Similarly in the North we can't afford to shrink the number of troops.
Moreover how can we downsize when we continuously raising new formations and units. Unfortunately Nawaz Shareef appointed a man who had never commanded a Division(or even a brigade most probably) in WoT; when we had so many brilliant officers who had commanded formations in the battlefield. Hence he doesn't know the challenges faced by our commanders against the terrorists. Most of the times our units were too far stretched especially in Keeping the lines of communication open and we had to induct new units for fresh offenses and if they weren't available then we had to resort to consolidation of gains until then. Imagine what will happen against a conventional enemy with better mechanisation and AF. It is impossible for us to downsize considerably when we have both western as well as Eastern fronts open.

I think he just used a fancy word, that's all.

Exactly. If any counter insurgency war anywhere has taught us anything, boots on ground matter the most. Us in Afghanistan had mraps so Taliban just used higher yield ieds. Us soldiers had fancy helmets and vests so Taliban hit them when they least expected. Us moved around in fancy large convoys, talibs exploited this and turned the valleys in Afghanistan graveyard for those convoys. Us would with its tech patrol areas, talibs would hide and just wait it out then ambush Americans when they least expect it.
Only boots on ground can win against insurgencies.

 

[Ali_Baba]

Pakistan’s goal is Kashmir.

To capture peaks you need a massive superiority in number of troops vs the defender. You can have the most modern and well equipped soldiers but they’ll get slaughtered while tryna capture peaks if you don’t outnumber the defenders heavily. Tech goes out the window when your fighting on loc to capture a dominating peak. What matters there is numbers not tech because even with all those fancy helmets and bullet proof vests your soldiers will still get massacred if they don’t heavily outnumber the defenders.

Also you need many soldiers in the ground to man posts on loc. “concentrate well equipped soldiers in one place” would be a good strategy if we had excellent infrastructure along loc. Up north it takes many hours to go from one city to another and the roads are small two lane roads. Try sending a division worth of troops from Rawalpindi to muzzaffarabad by road and you’ll see how long it takes. Pakistan doesn’t even have that many helicopters to rapidly transfer troops from one place to another and even if it builds better infrastructure and acquires equipment to rapidly transfer troops, you’ll already have wasted more money then more troops cost.

Drones with smart weapons have really changed the equation on what is required for an attacking force. We saw it Armenia conflict recenly and now this war in Ukraine. Drones will play a bigger part in Kashmir than soldiers and explains why the PA is investing in so many different types of UCAVs right now.

Sitting on top of a mountain is not as safe as it once used to be!!

Smart weapons esp anti-tank personal systems have changed things alot interms of warfare. It is no longer who has the most soldiers but who has the smartest weapons..

 

[The Terminator]

Does the downsizing means you will be retired early as well??

No military retirement ages need to be jacked up a bit. The outgoing regime with military brass were thinking of increasing the age of retirement at on time. Because issuing pensions to large number of relatively healthy and fit for their job retired soldiers eats up a big chunk of the the defense budget. But maybe that option was dropped later on!

 

[Sayfullah]

Drones with smart weapons have really changed the equation on what is required for an attacking force. We saw it Armenia conflict recenly and now this war in Ukraine. Drones will play a bigger part in Kashmir than soldiers and explains why the PA is investing in so many different types of UCAVs right now.

Sitting on top of a mountain is not as safe as it once used to be!!

Smart weapons esp anti-tank personal systems have changed things alot interms of warfare. It is no longer who has the most soldiers but who has the smartest weapons..

Our goal is to free Kashmir.
Drones won’t hold territory for you.
At the end of the day you still need boots on ground that’ll hold and secure the liberated areas for you.
Drones will help in that but won’t take over the role. Even in Azerbaijan-Armenia war, Azeris mobilized a lot of their population and needed boots on ground to secure liberated territory, liberated with the help of drones.

Sitting on top of a mountain is not as safe as it once used to be!!

It’s still very safe and very effective way to counter your enemy

Smart weapons esp anti-tank personal systems have changed things alot interms of warfare. It is no longer who has the most soldiers but who has the smartest weapons..

Does PA not already have atgms?
Tech is good and will help win wars but tech isn’t everything

 

[waz]

My brothers are talking about Ukraine here, please remember they are being fed up to date information on Russian movements with the most high tech surveillance system in the world i.e. the US's spy satellites, radar, AWACS you name it. Many of the pinpoint hits on Russian supplies, armoured columns were as a result of excellent intelligence.
They're being mass supplied in the thousands state of the art anti-air and anti-tank weapons from the starstreak, NLAW, Javelin, Stinger etc.
Logistics freely flow across borders with their neighbours Hungry, Moldova, Poland, Slovakia, Romania all supplying their troops with food, clothes and building materials.
It's not as simple as you think i.e. smaller forces with good equipment are dealing with a larger force. As mentioned Ukrainian troops also massively outnumber the Russians as well.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

All i hear when he talks is peace with india, negotiations, dialogue, peace.. as if he is not a COAS but president of green party. I didnt like this guy before and even more so now. Pack ur stuff grandpa and be gone by November.

Comments on foreign policy or other States by military officials should be vetted by the foreign office. I am not sure if that was done here.

The language used by the COAS in his comments on Russia and Ukraine was not ideal in my opinion. They should have been confined to expressing concern over the conflict and an end to hostilities and emphasizing a commitment to the dispute resolution via the relevant international forums such as the UN Security Council and its resolutions on conflicts.

 

[Yasser76]

Correction please...1 Corps is at Mangla, 2 is at Multan.

XXXI is already heavily mechanized, while V Corps is more than 70 % mechanized.

I guess you could take away a few infantry divisions from other corps too, for instance now Western border is much quiter (relative to previous years) can Peshawar XI Corps be done away with and it's area of responsibility taken over by 'Pindi and Quetta Corps?

Ultimately we have just 4 Armoured/mechanised divisions and 20 Infantry/light infantry divisions.

India has 8 Amoured/RAPID Divisions and 31 infantry divisions

It does seem from a very simple reading (and I am excluding independant Brigades/Atrillery and air defence divisions) ) that Pakistan Army already has a much higher "teeth" to tail" ratio then India. With approximately half the manpower we can still put up 24 divisions against their 39.

Considering around 12-13 of Indias divisions are in NE/LAC or internal duties that leaves them around 26 divs facing Pakistan
Northern command - 7 Divs, Southern - 5 Divs, South Western - 6 Divs and Western 8 Divs

Against these Pak has 5 Divisions in Quetta/Peshawar leaving us 19 Divs to face 26 Indian Divs. That is not bad at all.

Obviously I have oversimplified and have to take into account many Divs will be static defensive formations and of course independent Brigades play a vital role, however my point is if our doctrine is still based on reposte (hitting a vulnerable point of the enemy so forcing him to abandon an attack) then it does seem like Pak Army does have sufficient "bulk" to down size by at least a couple of divisions and thus upgrade the rest of the Army. Of course if say Baloch problem and Afghan border dies down and can be policed by FC/Irregulars then perhaps there is a case to be made for downsizing those corps so the Indian facing corps can become more mobile and armoured.

 

[blain2]

Exactly. We need this downsizing not because we’re trying to be more biased towards a smaller force with better equipment, but because we’re too biased towards manpower right now instead of technology, we need to regain the balance, every force in the world is downsizing to regain this balance, we must not fall behind.

I don't think we are biased towards manpower. It is a necessity when the other things are expensive and have long gestation periods including requiring support from partners to operationalize, then you have to rely on what is readily available to you. In our case this is manpower (thank goodness!).

I am a firm believer that if Pakistan is focused on its modernization, it can get to its targets faster than India on account of the latter's larger size, vast inventory in various lifecycle phases including obsolescence.

 

[TsAr]

The standing army of India is 1.4 million professional men, and he wants to cut things down....

Leave aside fighting a war the army is the only organisation able to fight natural disasters, deliver aid, ensure total security etc. No amount of technology can make up for boots on the ground for this.
He hasn't got long in the job I hope this doesn't come to pass.

Pakistan Military Size 1985-2024

Armed forces personnel are active duty military personnel, including paramilitary forces if the training, organization, equipment, and control suggest they may be used to support or replace regular military forces.

www.macrotrends.net

A lean and mean fighting machine is the future for sure, but we have to assess this keeping in mind our situation. We need Army for eastern as well as well western border. Army is also required for COIN operations and ensuring security in the country. Elections floods census nothing is done in this country without the army.
Only solution to this is that size of rangers needs to be increased so that they could look into the internal matters, only then we can think about reducing army size.

 

[blain2]

Comments on foreign policy or other States by military officials should be vetted by the foreign office. I am not sure if that was done here.

The language used by the COAS in his comments on Russia and Ukraine was not ideal in my opinion. They should have been confined to expressing concern over the conflict and an end to hostilities and emphasizing a commitment to the dispute resolution via the relevant international forums such as the UN Security Council and its resolutions on conflicts.

Unfortunately, in Pakistan's case, it had to be said by someone given what has been going on in the past week with PMIK. Consider it a good cop/bad cop routine of sorts. Whether that is good or bad is debatable. What is clear is that Pakistan, at this time, cannot afford a complete rupture in its ties with the US.

Ideally, you are absolutely correct, I would not want the CoAS to meet with any foreign diplomats, or make statements on Pakistan's external policies but unfortunately our foreign policy is run in a hybrid mode.

 

[Arulmozhi Varman]

The standing army of India is 1.4 million professional men, and he wants to cut things down....

Leave aside fighting a war the army is the only organisation able to fight natural disasters, deliver aid, ensure total security etc. No amount of technology can make up for boots on the ground for this.
He hasn't got long in the job I hope this doesn't come to pass.

Pakistan Military Size 1985-2024

Armed forces personnel are active duty military personnel, including paramilitary forces if the training, organization, equipment, and control suggest they may be used to support or replace regular military forces.

www.macrotrends.net

It's actually 1.1m now. 180k troops retired in the last 3 years and no recruitment has taken place in the last 2 years. The govt has no plans to induct more for the shortfall for now.

 

[waz]

It's actually 1.1m now. 180k troops retired in the last 3 years and no recruitment has taken place in the last 2 years. The govt has no plans to induct more for the shortfall for now.

Thanks for the correction.

 

[doorstar]

internet people equate strength with numbers. however, in real world, a million ill-equipped, badly trained and under-paid men can be slaughtered by an army of 100k or less

 

[PakFactor]

Drones with smart weapons have really changed the equation on what is required for an attacking force. We saw it Armenia conflict recenly and now this war in Ukraine. Drones will play a bigger part in Kashmir than soldiers and explains why the PA is investing in so many different types of UCAVs right now.

Sitting on top of a mountain is not as safe as it once used to be!!

Smart weapons esp anti-tank personal systems have changed things alot interms of warfare. It is no longer who has the most soldiers but who has the smartest weapons..

You can use smart weapons and induct them the resources are there internally if brain power is properly utilized. But you'll still need man power to hold the growth.

My brothers are talking about Ukraine here, please remember they are being fed up to date information on Russian movements with the most high tech surveillance system in the world i.e. the US's spy satellites, radar, AWACS you name it. Many of the pinpoint hits on Russian supplies, armoured columns were as a result of excellent intelligence.
They're being mass supplied in the thousands state of the art anti-air and anti-tank weapons from the starstreak, NLAW, Javelin, Stinger etc.
Logistics freely flow across borders with their neighbours Hungry, Moldova, Poland, Slovakia, Romania all supplying their troops with food, clothes and building materials.
It's not as simple as you think i.e. smaller forces with good equipment are dealing with a larger force. As mentioned Ukrainian troops also massively outnumber the Russians as well.

Thank you, it's what I've been saying in the other thread on the conflict, the flood of advanced arms and Intel is inflicting the blows on the Russians but we got two American Professionals who are so stuck up no point in talking to them. Had that not been the case it would've been a different story. What Bajwa is getting wrong about a smaller modernized force defeating a larger one is the attrition will wear down the smaller force much quicker, you will not be able to replace man power that quickly, you'll be over run.

The Russians is another case in point not to move away from your doctrine, they trying to play the American style war when there military wasn't built for it.

Comments on foreign policy or other States by military officials should be vetted by the foreign office. I am not sure if that was done here.

The language used by the COAS in his comments on Russia and Ukraine was not ideal in my opinion. They should have been confined to expressing concern over the conflict and an end to hostilities and emphasizing a commitment to the dispute resolution via the relevant international forums such as the UN Security Council and its resolutions on conflicts.

Why end the conflict? Learn from the Chinese, the moment it stops in Europe the guns will be pointed our way. A smart man would keep that conflict going while you build up and get some breathing space at the same time.

 

[SIPRA]

Comments on foreign policy or other States by military officials should be vetted by the foreign office. I am not sure if that was done here.

The language used by the COAS in his comments on Russia and Ukraine was not ideal in my opinion. They should have been confined to expressing concern over the conflict and an end to hostilities and emphasizing a commitment to the dispute resolution via the relevant international forums such as the UN Security Council and its resolutions on conflicts.

Right, you are.