COAS flies F-16, takes part in operation

[wtf]

no he is just biased and hippocrate.

Hippocrate ?
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk170/elvisbloom/Hippocrate.jpg

You guys shouldn't really be fighting so much, both of you are pro-Pakistan but just have differing amounts of trust in the institutions.

 

[Kasrkin]

A place where people don’t care about wasting money and invent reasons to justify for it will never grow and will never prosper. Whether it is military or civilians no one is honest to that country. That is what I tell to my Americans friends when they ask me what is wrong with that country.

No one here is disputing your patriotism, but you just did a pretty fine job of it yourself. You go ahead and tell your American friends (I wonder how much you tell them about your views regarding their country) about how you in your contemptuous self-righteousness left your own country and your 'hopeless' countrymen to their fate because apparently you're so much better than the rest of us...

You know what I think is wrong with our country? Too many people do too much whining and little action. You hate Pakistan because it is allied with 'evil' America but you're willing to drop Pakistan out of your life and run to America the first chance you get and then tell your American 'friends' about how 'hopeless' we are. Then you wonder why no one respects Pakistan...

You've failed to defend your points and everyone can see that, don't indulge in this BS rant about Pakistan to leave the impression that there is any material to your criticisms, because there is not.

 

[SSGPA1]

And please SSGPA1, I dislike NS as much as I dislike Zardari and as much as I dislike any dishonest person. Don't bring this political affiliation thing in every discussion.

acha boss naraz mat hu ... this is my personal shaireee ...

I disagree with you because if PAF spent extra money to boost the morale of troops and jawans then to me it is money well spent ... jawans are very simple people and this kind of adventure makes a whole lot of difference for these guys ...

I see your POV and I would agree if the same stunt was pulled by Zaradri but Gen. Kiyani has a different level of respect and admiration amongst our troops ... trust me this must have done wonders for the morales of our troops.

 

[All-Green]

I can reply to each and every point of yours but your style of conversation in the words of Mirza Ghalib is:

Har ek baat par kehtey ho tum key tu kya hey
TumheeN kaho key yeh andaz e guftugu kya hey

So thank you for letting me know about myself. You guys have scored enough thanks while dueling with me. Time to retire from this discussion. After discussing though, I thank myself again that I made a right decision to leave Pakistan, because things will never be changed in that country. A place where people don’t care about wasting money and invent reasons to justify for it will never grow and will never prosper. Whether it is military or civilians no one is honest to that country. That is what I tell to my Americans friends when they ask me what is wrong with that country. When somebody tries to identify this you guys call him traitor, sick, dishonest, uneducated, with twisted mindset. If the standard of honesty and loyalty and love for your country is what I have read in previous posts, than we really don’t need an enemy to destroy us, we ourselves are sufficient for that.

And please SSGPA1, I dislike NS as much as I dislike Zardari and as much as I dislike any dishonest person. Don't bring this political affiliation thing in every discussion.

Hey Qsaark,

Yaar do not be so upset man.
First of all we are not discussing a private trip to the Bahamas planned by COAS.
He wanted to visit the area being bombarded by PAF and sitting in an F-16B was deemed the most appropriate way...
The intent was good and their was NO WASTAGE of money since a similar observation from sky would have cost the same in any other craft but would have been more dangerous...
Can you please put some trust in the High Command....just some trust and also appreciate the intent of COAS?
How many times did you see Musharraf on the frontlines in WANA, SWAT etc?
Please take it as a positive my friend as it should be taken...

You know how much a guided bomb costs?
compare the cost of the munitions spent in the single mission with this cost (which would have been spent anyways on a heli flight) and it is peanuts in comparison as well...

The way i see it the following justifications are there if you are willing to be a little bit more open minded about it and atleast willing to give the COAS some merit as a good soldier.

1) The move was similar in cost to any aerial observation; which is not only the due right of COAS but a symbol of his committment to his duty in order to make sure things are happening as per his instructions and also to understand the PAF operation first hand.

2) Much more Safe mode of observation than usual flight by chopper; given that there are AA guns delpoyed by TTP in different areas as well and you never know when a stinger pops up unexpectadly...one mistake could be lethal and a chopper may not be able to evade in time.

3) Much closer observation of PAF bombing run since the F-16 is highly maneuverable and can go in close and get away within seconds as opposed to a chopper.

4) Morale boosting factor multiplies when the COAS sits in a fighter Jet and accompanies a sorty!


I think your points about money wastage are valid in Pakistan as a whole but bringing it to this thread was maybe a bit too hard and not that much justified given the spirit of this thread.

However let me assure you that last night when i was fanning my feverish 2 year old at 2 am due to light outage of 6 hours i too was fuming at what passes on for priority in our Government agenda when there is no loadshedding or power outage in the homes of our leaders/ministers etc....how will they ever understand what it feels like to be without electricity when they have multiple WAPDA connections in their homes and do not even need to use Generators whereas all of us have to get UPS or a generator to have a normal summer!
What about the weekly visit of our PM to DHA Lahore while he can keep his lovely wife in the PM House and save the people of Lahore the weekly traffic blockade and mass mobilization of Police on a single route while their services are needed elsewhere in wake of current security crisis?
What about the millions spent on foreign trips where even Bilalwal was present?
What about the fact that during the most improtant operation launched by PA the president was absent for more than 20 days on a foreign trip whereas Gen. Kiyani cut short his highly important meeting with french officials (for 5 days) and met only the French President and few key officials for four hours and came back the same day to chair a meeting in GHQ?
What about the SAD FACT that PA has given much more ration to IDPs from its own quota than the glorious leaders of PML-N who sent a caravan of just 15-20 trucks from the biggest wheat producing province and that too decorated with the pictures of Sharif Brothers instead of Punjab Government Logo only...did they give from their personal pocket, how shameless these people are?
We see daily advertisements of Punjab Government Head Shahbaz Sharif calling himself Khadim e Aala and boasting of his radical steps, his brother Naraz Sharif also shows face in advertisements 3-4 times a month in many newspapers....does it not merit being called a true wastage of money, you think they are paying from their own pocket?

Qsaark, my point is that even though i share your frustration and anger over the mismanagement and corruption maybe your anger should be directed elsewhere since by all what i have seen this particular COAS has been playing it straighter and cleaner than any i remember and deserves some praise as well.

Hope should not be lost and our bickering and arguing does not mean that things are always going to be downhill.
As evident from this forum as well, we are much more aware as a nation than we were few decades ago and the awakening may occur yet, inshallah.

 

[waraich66]

Hey Qsaark,

Yaar do not be so upset man.
First of all we are not discussing a private trip to the Bahamas planned by COAS.
He wanted to visit the area being bombarded by PAF and sitting in an F-16B was deemed the most appropriate way...
The intent was good and their was NO WASTAGE of money since a similar observation from sky would have cost the same in any other craft but would have been more dangerous...
Can you please put some trust in the High Command....just some trust and also appreciate the intent of COAS?
How many times did you see Musharraf on the frontlines in WANA, SWAT etc?
Please take it as a positive my friend as it should be taken...

You know how much a guided bomb costs?
compare the cost of the munitions spent in the single mission with this cost (which would have been spent anyways on a heli flight) and it is peanuts in comparison as well...

The way i see it the following justifications are there if you are willing to be a little bit more open minded about it and atleast willing to give the COAS some merit as a good soldier.

1) The move was similar in cost to any aerial observation; which is not only the due right of COAS but a symbol of his committment to his duty in order to make sure things are happening as per his instructions and also to understand the PAF operation first hand.

2) Much more Safe mode of observation than usual flight by chopper; given that there are AA guns delpoyed by TTP in different areas as well and you never know when a stinger pops up unexpectadly...one mistake could be lethal and a chopper may not be able to evade in time.

3) Much closer observation of PAF bombing run since the F-16 is highly maneuverable and can go in close and get away within seconds as opposed to a chopper.

4) Morale boosting factor multiplies when the COAS sits in a fighter Jet and accompanies a sorty!


I think your points about money wastage are valid in Pakistan as a whole but bringing it to this thread was maybe a bit too hard and not that much justified given the spirit of this thread.

However let me assure you that last night when i was fanning my feverish 2 year old at 2 am due to light outage of 6 hours i too was fuming at what passes on for priority in our Government agenda when there is no loadshedding or power outage in the homes of our leaders/ministers etc....how will they ever understand what it feels like to be without electricity when they have multiple WAPDA connections in their homes and do not even need to use Generators whereas all of us have to get UPS or a generator to have a normal summer!
What about the weekly visit of our PM to DHA Lahore while he can keep his lovely wife in the PM House and save the people of Lahore the weekly traffic blockade and mass mobilization of Police on a single route while their services are needed elsewhere in wake of current security crisis?
What about the millions spent on foreign trips where even Bilalwal was present?
What about the fact that during the most improtant operation launched by PA the president was absent for more than 20 days on a foreign trip whereas Gen. Kiyani cut short his highly important meeting with french officials (for 5 days) and met only the French President and few key officials for four hours and came back the same day to chair a meeting in GHQ?
What about the SAD FACT that PA has given much more ration to IDPs from its own quota than the glorious leaders of PML-N who sent a caravan of just 15-20 trucks from the biggest wheat producing province and that too decorated with the pictures of Sharif Brothers instead of Punjab Government Logo only...did they give from their personal pocket, how shameless these people are?
We see daily advertisements of Punjab Government Head Shahbaz Sharif calling himself Khadim e Aala and boasting of his radical steps, his brother Naraz Sharif also shows face in advertisements 3-4 times a month in many newspapers....does it not merit being called a true wastage of money, you think they are paying from their own pocket?

Qsaark, my point is that even though i share your frustration and anger over the mismanagement and corruption maybe your anger should be directed elsewhere since by all what i have seen this particular COAS has been playing it straighter and cleaner than any i remember and deserves some praise as well.

Hope should not be lost and our bickering and arguing does not mean that things are always going to be downhill.
As evident from this forum as well, we are much more aware as a nation than we were few decades ago and the awakening may occur yet, inshallah.

All Green,

It is responsibility of Politians and Prime minister to lead and motivate the nation ,Army chief is a servent ,he should obey rules and regulation of Army.

 

[All-Green]

All Green,

It is responsibility of Politians and Prime minister to lead and motivate the nation ,Army chief is a servent ,he should obey rules and regulation of Army.

For the last time, there was no breach of any regulation since he was not flying the F-16 but merely observing the operation from Sky...when there is breach of regulation i would be critical of COAS but when there is credit due i do give it to him.

Please name the rule or regulation which does not allow the COAS to sit behind an F-16 and observe only.

Motivation and leadership is one of the most critical aspects of High command and winning Wars...if you have any idea about these things then why do you dismiss this as something unnecessary or out of regulation?

Whose job is it to motivate the soldiers?
Their officers!

Whose Job is it to motivate the officers and the soldiers?
Their generals!

Whose Job is it to motivate all ranks of the Army?
The COAS!

Majority of brilliant german generals like Erich Von Manstein, Rommel etc. used to carry out similar forward recoinessance whether aerial or on ground and were most successful and inspirational commanders...
I am not even mentioning the great Muslim Generals of the sword era because we would start going into comparisons and hit a tangent...Yet i still am somewhat surprised at the criticism on a move which is in no way a Joy ride or just for the eyes of the media...it is something called morale boosting and despite all the technical force multipliers which we discuss here like AEW&Cs, Mid air refuelling, BMS etc. there is one force multiplier that is most important of all...The MORALE...

 

[waraich66]

For the last time, there was no breach of any regulation since he was not flying the F-16 but merely observing the operation from Sky...when there is breach of regulation i would be critical of COAS but when there is credit due i do give it to him.

Please name the rule or regulation which does not allow the COAS to sit behind an F-16 and observe only.

Motivation and leadership is one of the most critical aspects of High command and winning Wars...if you have any idea about these things then why do you dismiss this as something unnecessary or out of regulation?

Whose job is it to motivate the soldiers?
Their officers!

Whose Job is it to motivate the officers and the soldiers?
Their generals!

Whose Job is it to motivate all ranks of the Army?
The COAS!

Majority of brillian german generals like Erich Von Manstein, Rommel etc. used to carry out similar forward recoinessance whether aerial or on ground and were most successful and inspirational commanders...
I am not even mentioning the great Muslim Generals of the sword era because we would start going into comparisons and hit a tangent...Yet i still am somewhat surprised at the criticism on a move which is in no way a Joy ride or just for the eyes of the media...it is something called morale boosting and despite all the technical force multipliers which we discuss here like AEW&Cs, Mid air refuelling, BMS etc. there is one force multiplier that is most important of all...The MORALE...

I have many relatives served and serving in general ranks of armed forces ,i will let you know after confirmation from them about rule and regulation of army for this COAS action.
As far as the morale enhancement is concerned , There are 1000 ways to enhance morale of armed forces but this method is unique and never happened in the history of modren war fare.

In short ,we should set good examples for coming generation .

 

[All-Green]

I have many relatives served and serving in general ranks of armed forces ,i will let you know after confirmation from them about rule and regulation of army for this COAS action.
As far as the morale enhancement is concerned , There are 1000 ways to enhance morale of armed forces but this method is unique and never happened in the history of modren war fare.

In short ,we should set good examples for coming generation .

My friend you will be hardpressed to even name top 10 of the 1000s of ways you are aware to raise morale which can have a better effect than the commander visiting the frontlines!

My family has also had honourable soldiers who were frontline fighters in our nation's wars and atleast they are all most impressed with this man so maybe that is why i have come to respect him more as well.

Now here is a paradox (and i mean no insult), when there is no respect for the decision of COAS to be on the frontline and motivate his troops then you really expect me to respect the opinion of any other general you may contact?

I am a keen student of military history, tradition, values of not only Pakistan but other nations with great armies as well and really saw this as a positive and in highest tradition of command.
I gave you example of Rommel and Erich Von Manstein who were both field Marshalls and the best two commanders of the entire WW2 as per many experts.
Also Our own Air Marshall Nur Khan Sahib risked his own life to raise the morale in 65 and look how it worked out!

Regarding the good example, i do recall two of my officer friends who were pissed off at our previous COAS and his lack of interest in what his troops were facing...believe me i talked to them during recent SWAT offensive and they are so motivated and full of praise for their COAS that i was quite pleasantly surprised and thankful...there is nothing like a commander who is seen on the frontlines...this is a fact and the ones who fully appreciate it are maybe not you and i but the soldiers and officers who are giving their lives for their motherland!

In the end if you guys choose to see it as something of a negative despite my argument then there is nothing more i can say or do about it...

but still no hard feelings...

My humble request is to atleast acknowledge that this guy is a better COAS than we could have hoped to have and it is good that he is here at a very difficult time.
I am sure he will make mistakes as well but his intentions are all good so far so cut him some slack my friends!

 

[waraich66]

My friend you will be hardpressed to even name top 10 of the 1000s of ways you are aware to raise morale which can have a better effect than the commander visiting the frontlines!

My family has also had honourable soldiers who were frontline fighters in our nation's wars and atleast they are all most impressed with this man so maybe that is why i have come to respect him more as well.

Now here is a paradox (and i mean no insult), when there is no respect for the decision of COAS to be on the frontline and motivate his troops then you really expect me to respect the opinion of any other general you may contact?

I am a keen student of military history, tradition, values of not only Pakistan but other nations with great armies as well and really saw this as a positive and in highest tradition of command.
I gave you example of Rommel and Erich Von Manstein who were both field Marshalls and the best two commanders of the entire WW2 as per many experts.
Also Our own Air Marshall Nur Khan Sahib risked his own life to raise the morale in 65 and look how it worked out!

Regarding the good example, i do recall two of my officer friends who were pissed off at our previous COAS and his lack of interest in what his troops were facing...believe me i talked to them during recent SWAT offensive and they are so motivated and full of praise for their COAS that i was quite pleasantly surprised and thankful...there is nothing like a commander who is seen on the frontlines...this is a fact and the ones who fully appreciate it are maybe not you and i but the soldiers and officers who are giving their lives for their motherland!

In the end if you guys choose to see it as something of a negative despite my argument then there is nothing more i can say or do about it...

but still no hard feelings...

My humble request is to atleast acknowledge that this guy is a better COAS than we could have hoped to have and it is good that he is here at a very difficult time.
I am sure he will make mistakes as well but his intentions are all good so far so cut him some slack my friends!

I appreciate your motivation level and sincerity for nation .

 

[fatman17]

I have many relatives served and serving in general ranks of armed forces ,i will let you know after confirmation from them about rule and regulation of army for this COAS action.
As far as the morale enhancement is concerned , There are 1000 ways to enhance morale of armed forces but this method is unique and never happened in the history of modren war fare.

In short ,we should set good examples for coming generation .

my friend - what is your problem? - are u the only one who has relatives of general rank? - grow up!

 

[fatman17]

I appreciate your motivation level and sincerity for nation .

as if he needs this endorsement from you!

 

[fatman17]

Pakistani general flies back seat in a F-16
View attachment 3496


June 15, 2009 (by Asif Shamim) - Pakistani Chief of Army Staff, General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani, flew of over the Swat valley in the North West Frontier Province to see first hand the situation from the air in the ongoing fight against the militants who have besieged the region.


This was the first visit by the General to an operational base of the Pakistan Air Force after taking over as Chief of Army Staff and he was warmly greeted by his airforce counterpart, Chief of Air Staff, Rao Qamar Suleman.

The flight lasting little over an hour in a F-16B (#84608) from 9 Sqn was a show of force for his troops who are engaged in battling the militants in Operation Rah‑e‑Raast in various parts of Malakand, Swat and Bannu.

The secondary objective was to show the tight coordination between the air force and army, and to maintain public morale for the ongoing and widening offensive.

On his return he made a small speech to locally gathered airforce officials in which he discussed how difficult it is to distinguish between enemies and friends in a campaign against domestic militants.

"The biggest challenge is to differentiate between black and white in this war," General Kayani said in his address, which was broadcast on private television networks. "People can go astray. They need to be brought to the righteous path," he said, referring to the militants.

"This is not a war (against) Islam," he said. "Islam is our foundation. The problem is extremism and terrorism."


http://f-16.net

 

[waraich66]

as if he needs this endorsement from you!

What is harm in giving appretiation ?

 

[waraich66]

my friend - what is your problem? - are u the only one who has relatives of general rank? - grow up!

It is not my problem ,we need to change the wastage culture of nation and thinking of leadership that they are above law.

 

[sob]

My initial reaction to this news item was that it is just a photo op or another way of scoring brownie points.

But looking at the not so " harmonious" relations between the different services ( true for any country) this is a good gesture by the COAS to fly in a F 16.

If not for nothing it gives him a different perspective of the operations going on.