COAS and DG ISI reach PM house

[Bilal.]

 

[yusufjee]

Trying to diffuse the situation by telling the ARMY let them kick him out, you need to just keep quiet.

 

[blain2]

I don't understand this either! One can only draw 2 conclusions from this, either they are powerless, or they work for opposition. Neither is very good for Pakistan.

So what would you have the government do? You want to cut ties with the USG and pull our ambassador back?

We have a lot of dependencies on Amreeka. The FATF issue, dependency on the IMF etc., assets tied into the world's monetary system etc. are just a few that come to mind.

If we had guts, we'd be willing to go the path of Iran but if our nation cannot even handle double-digit inflation and starts crying, is it ready for more serious economic repercussions along with more pressure on our security interests? I seriously doubt it. We talk a lot of jazbaati tripe about "gherat" but where the rubber meets the road, there aren't any takers.

Why does the Pakistani nation not understand the inflationary pressures are on account of COVID/Higher oil prices and not directly the fault of the PTI government policies? Why does our nation not understand their national responsibility to pay taxes to bridge the massive budget deficit? So tons of questions about our readiness to bear the shocks that will arise from cutting ties with the Americans. My own take, our own people are not ready to do that. This will go to the extent of naray-baazi but that is it.

The culprit is the establishment. But I think the establishment is "passively" involved rather than being directly involved in the return of the "electables". This is how it works out:

1) Establishment thinks the "electables" can come back one day and sit on the throne, hence they deserve pardon. Therefore, ignore all NAB cases, and pressurize the supreme court into cancelling bails, and dropping cases. This allows the establishment to have a bargaining chip in the future, and force them to give incentives to the establishment-industrial complex.

2) Hence, the "electables" survive to see another day, and continue with their everyday feudal politics. Subsequently, they exploit the "flawed system" you talked about, to collude with foreign powers, to undermine state institutions, judiciary, army and anti corruption bureaucracy to get NRO.

3) The "electables" again come to power, and continue to sustain the exact "flawed system" you talked about.

The biggest problem is that, the Establishment is working with the assumption that the "familiar" political parties are integral part of Pakistan, hence they must be supported, and always given an escape route when a leader such as Imran Khan emerge. They do that for future benefits. And that "future" is an abstract which the establishment wants to keep believing in. Hence, they keep supporting it. The result is that, the cycle of electables coming to power continues, while the ordinary man is just looking at the flawed system from a distance, helpless.

You have already heard the news, that the National Security Council has endorsed the letter. But do you still remember when Establishment pawns, like Shahzain Bugti left the government on flimsy grounds? Or when the Aleem Khan group decided to move towards PDM even when govt. capitulated and agreed to Pervaiz Elahi for the CM spot? It seems they never wanted Buzdar out in the first place. There was something else going on.

Imran Khan has forced the establishment to side with him in this political fiasco. This could be the start of a reformation process of a flawed system. But as history tells us, the establishment cannot side with Imran Khan completely, because if even there is a 0.1% chance that the "electables" come back to power, they will damage all the little fantasies and dreams the establishment has constructed for itself over the last 70 years. If a superpower like the USA can help the establishment distance itself from a powerful civilian leader like Imran Khan, they will be more than happy about it. And the last few days show that they were VERY happy about it.

This is why, without the magical reformation of the Establishment, there can be no change in Pakistan.

**Re-posting a rebuttal to above just to keep the content in this one thread**

That is an overly simplistic understanding of this so-called "Establishment". You state things like "Establishment thinks the "electables" are destined to come back to rule Pakistan. Hence, they think it is better to always have a conciliatory attitude with them, and be very forgiving."

Why would the Establishment do that? I have stated this in another thread, the Establishment cares about Pakistan first and foremost. This may be lost on many people but the institute that we are discussing here is not wedded to a political party. It is wedded to Pakistan. It is also extremely weary of being brought onto the precipice of a civil war when the political temperatures get too high and it would get asked to put boots on the ground to keep things settled or prevent things from becoming worse on the streets (a red line in the eyes of the Establishment) thus the backchannel advice and pushing all of the political actors to step back (case in point is establishment's suggestion to the PTI government on the 3 options ahead revealed by the PM today).

So the Establishment will do what it always does, which is to tell the political parties to reconcile or reset. The last thing the establishment wants to see itself doing is putting down the political supporters of one party at the orders of another party (which may be ruling at the time). This is a firm no-go after the 1971 debacle.

This establishment is not going to get in the way of a vote of no confidence. That is enshrined in the constitution of Pakistan.
Similarly, last elections, it was one of the fairest elections in the history of Pakistan and the PTI dominated. All that the establishment did was to align with the new government and worked with them. This was seen as partiality by the opposition which resulted in that bakvas about "selected PM" when the opposition knows, yet won't admit, that it lost and lost bad to IK/PTI fair and square. But these sore loser politics are common in Pakistan, nothing will change this except time and some basic decency in politics.

Now the situation is at a point where the incumbent government has not been able to garner sufficient support from its allies, so what is the establishment to do? They are stepping back and letting the process play out.

As far as the letter goes, Pakistan has lodged a formal demarche with the US. The Establishment has supported this step by the sitting government of Pakistan. What more do we expect this establishment to do?

 

[ghazi52]

.,.,.,.,

.,.,.

 

[truthseeker2010]

So what would you have the government do? You want to cut ties with the USG and pull our ambassador back?

We have a lot of dependencies on Amreeka. The FATF issue, dependency on the IMF etc., assets tied into the world's monetary system etc. are just a few that come to mind.

If we had guts, we'd be willing to go the path of Iran but if our nation cannot even handle double-digit inflation and starts crying, is it ready for more serious economic repercussions along with more pressure on our security interests? I seriously doubt it. We talk a lot of jazbaati tripe about "gherat" but where the rubber meets the road, there aren't any takers.

Why does the Pakistani nation not understand the inflationary pressures are on account of COVID/Higher oil prices and not directly the fault of the PTI government policies? Why does our nation not understand their national responsibility to pay taxes to bridge the massive budget deficit? So tons of questions about our readiness to bear that shocks that will arise from cutting ties with the Americans. My own take, our own people are not ready to do that. This will go to the extent of naray-baazi but that is it.


**Re-posting a rebuttal to above just to keep the content in this one thread**

That is an overly simplistic understanding of this so-called "Establishment". You state things like "Establishment thinks the "electables" are destined to come back to rule Pakistan. Hence, they think it is better to always have a conciliatory attitude with them, and be very forgiving."

Why would the Establishment do that? I have stated this in another thread, the Establishment cares about Pakistan first and foremost. This may be lost on many people but the institute that we are discussing here is not wedded to a political party. It is wedded to Pakistan. It is also extremely weary of being brought onto the precipice of a civil war when the political temperatures get too high and it would get asked to put boots on the ground to keep things settled or prevent things from becoming worse on the streets (a red line in the eyes of the Establishment) thus the backchannel advice and pushing all of the political actors to step back (case in point is establishment's suggestion to the PTI government on the 3 options ahead revealed by the PM today).

So the Establishment will do what it always does, which is to tell the political parties to reconcile or reset. The last thing the establishment wants to see itself doing is putting down the political supporters of one party at the orders of another party (which may be ruling at the time). This is a firm no-go after the 1971 debacle.

This establishment is not going to get in the way of a vote of no confidence. That is enshrined in the constitution of Pakistan.
Similarly, last elections, it was one of the fairest elections in the history of Pakistan and the PTI dominated. All that the establishment did was to align with the new government and worked with them. This was seen as partiality by the opposition which resulted in that bakvas about "selected PM" when the opposition knows, yet won't admit, that it lost and lost bad to IK/PTI fair and square. But these sore loser politics are common in Pakistan, nothing will change this except time and some basic decency in politics.

Now the situation is at a point where the incumbent government has not been able to garner sufficient support from its allies, so what is the establishment to do? They are stepping back and letting the process play out.

As far as the letter goes, Pakistan has lodged a formal demarche with the US. The Establishment has supported this step by the sitting government of Pakistan. What more do we expect this establishment to do?

Establishment is wedded to Pakistan, and yet what it does when OBL was found in its backyard? When 24 of its soldiers were slaughtered? When US was openly doing drone attacks in your own country operating from your own soil?
When your generals sons and daughters are studying in US, you think they keep the interest of Pakistan above their sons and daughters?
Had the establishment been too sincere to Pakistan, they would not have dragged this letter issue for 20+ days, they acknowledged only when IK made it public.
Yes establishment is doing what it does best, playing politics in the name of diffusing the situation.

 

[yusufjee]

Why does the Pakistani nation not understand the inflationary pressures are on account of COVID/Higher oil prices and not directly the fault of the PTI government policies? Why does our nation not understand their national responsibility to pay taxes to bridge the massive budget deficit? So tons of questions about our readiness to bear that shocks that will arise from cutting ties with the Americans. My own take, our own people are not ready to do that. This will go to the extent of naray-baazi but that is it.

Because the sold-out media never let people digest this idea and opposition fed them. That was treason right there and anyhow the Pakistani people are kept illiterate for a reason by the previous governments.

Paksitani awam is provided a sehat card but they want IK to personally operate on them. They have been provided the panah gah but they want IK to cook for them, they have been provided opportunities through interest free loan but they want IK to deliver that check at home personally. Ji COVID mein IK ka kya kaam hai, woh to Allah nay hamay bachaya hai. Wah BC. Is qoum ko yeh nahi maloom kay tax koi cheese hota hai, tax pr sari dunya chalti hain. In mein say koi amreeka ya anegland chala jaye to aise tax deta hai jaise sari zindagi ka experience hai.

 

[blain2]

Establishment is wedded to Pakistan, and yet what it does when OBL was found in its backyard? When 24 of its soldiers were slaughtered? When US was openly doing drone attacks in your own country operating from your own soil?
When your generals sons and daughters are studying in US, you think they keep the interest of Pakistan above their sons and daughters?
Had the establishment been too sincere to Pakistan, they would not have dragged this letter issue for 20+ days, they acknowledged only when IK made it public.
Yes establishment is doing what it does best, playing politics in the name of diffusing the situation.

Let me ask you a counter question.

What would you have done in each of those situations? Let me pick through your responses then.

The establishment's reasons have nothing to do with this hypothesis that since some (less than 1%) have their sons and daughters going to study in the US, they are not inclined to take issues with the US. Nothing of sorts exists. If anything, then this should apply to IK even more since his sons and ex-wife live in the West etc.

One should also understand the specifics before attacking the establishment. The military leadership was told of this letter in the NSC meeting only. IK/PTI said this. The minutes of the meeting (which is what this purported document is and not a letter from a foreign government) were shared with them yesterday (March 31st):

"The 37th meeting of NSC took place at the PM Office with PM Imran Khan in the chair, where National Security Adviser Dr Moeed Yusuf briefed the committee on the formal communication of a senior official of a foreign country to Pakistan’s ambassador in the said country during a formal meeting.

The Pakistani ambassador "duly conveyed" the message of the foreign official to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, the statement said.

Federal ministers of defence, energy, information and broadcasting, interior, finance, human rights, planning, development and special initiatives, Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee, Services Chiefs, NSA, and senior officers attended the meeting, the statement read."

Pakistan to issue 'strong demarche' to country whose official communicated 'threat': NSC

ISLAMABAD: Pakistan will issue a strong demarche to the country whose official communicated the threat to the PTI government, the National Security Committee decided Thursday.The Committee...

www.thenews.com.pk

 

[truthseeker2010]

Let me ask you a counter question.

What would you have done in each of those situations? Let me pick through your responses then.

The establishment's reasons have nothing to do with this hypothesis that since some (less than 1%) have their sons and daughters going to study in the US, they are not inclined to take issues with the US. Nothing of sorts exists. If anything, then this should apply to IK even more since his sons and ex-wife live in the West etc.

One should also understand the specifics before attacking the establishment. They military leadership was told of this letter in the NSC meeting only. IK/PTI said this. The minutes of the meeting (which is what this purported document is and not a letter from a foreign government) were shared with them yesterday (March 31st):

"The 37th meeting of NSC took place at the PM Office with PM Imran Khan in the chair, where National Security Adviser Dr Moeed Yusuf briefed the committee on the formal communication of a senior official of a foreign country to Pakistan’s ambassador in the said country during a formal meeting.

The Pakistani ambassador "duly conveyed" the message of the foreign official to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, the statement said.

Federal ministers of defence, energy, information and broadcasting, interior, finance, human rights, planning, development and special initiatives, Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee, Services Chiefs, NSA, and senior officers attended the meeting, the statement read."

Pakistan to issue 'strong demarche' to country whose official communicated 'threat': NSC

ISLAMABAD: Pakistan will issue a strong demarche to the country whose official communicated the threat to the PTI government, the National Security Committee decided Thursday.The Committee...

www.thenews.com.pk

I would not have agreed to the operation since isi and coas knew that for US to exit afghanistan they want to make pakistan scapegoat. If the ops conducted if i don't know and i can't respond to US attack. I have failed to do my job and I would have resigned. Same case with drone attacks, which country's army create animosity with its own people? The fallout in KPK is a result of that and will keep on, no matter how much you hide it in the name of external forces (which than again is still hitting you in your own house). But the generals mindset as he is always right is the main reasons of all the mess you have created in Pakistan.

Ok tell me where is kayani or raheel these days and one of your ex chief of your so called no 1 intel agency? Why do these people tend to settle aboard after "serving" their country all their life?

 

[blain2]

I would not have agreed to the operation since isi and coas knew that for US to exit afghanistan they want to make pakistan scapegoat. If the ops conducted if i don't know and i can't respond to US attack. I have failed to do my job and I would have resigned. Same case with drone attacks, which country's army create animosity with its own people? The fallout in KPK is a result of that and will keep on, no matter how much you hide it in the name of external forces (which than again is still hitting you in your own house). But the generals mindset as he is always right is the main reasons of all the mess you have created in Pakistan.

Ok tell me where is kayani or raheel these days and one of your ex chief of your so called no 1 intel agency? Why do these people tend to settle aboard after "serving" their country all their life?

Americans came and did the operation against OBL and left. Whether Pakistan agreed to or did not agree is quite questionable. Nobody knows who was in the know of this operation.

You, we, cannot respond to US attack without getting our own country and its defense capabilities destroyed. You should think through what "responding to the US attacks" entails. Talk is easy. Your answer is essentially generalities that do not delve into the results of your proposed actions i.e. "respond to US attack". Once we respond militarily, be ready for Pakistan's military capability being destroyed in a significant manner including our ability to fend off India.

As far as "resigning" goes, what would that do when a supposed ally takes action flying nap of the earth missions? Should we have deployed radars running 24x7x365 and CAPs constantly flying against the Pak-Afghan border? Would the GoP have been able to fund this massive round the year operation?

As far as the drone attacks are concerned, keep in mind that many took out anti-Pakistani Taliban, others took out AQ and some did indeed result in collateral damage. Choices with Pakistan were to demonstrate vocally which was done or shut the NATO supply (which was done after 20+ of our troops were killed) to lastly sending our own aircraft to shoot down American drones. In response we would have got our Air Force decimated, sanctions put on, economy in free fall, got declared State Sponsor of Terrorism (as the US controls UN) and countless other damaging ramifications. So the populist rhetoric of even IK goes only so far. His government is being upended because he says Americans did not like him visiting the Russians. What do you imagine would happen if we militarily responded to the US?

Raheel Sharif is in KSA leading the Counter Terrorism initiative for the Khalijis at the invite of the KSA. I don't know where Kayani is, but Gens Beg, Kakar, and Karamat are all in Pakistan. People move overseas to be with their families at times. Many stay back. I don't see a sinister trend here as you are trying to depict.

Only idiots claim ISI to be #1 or ascribe any such ratings to any intelligence outfits. I don't believe in this.

 

[SaadH]

Here to deliver orders from their mai baap

 

[truthseeker2010]

Americans came and did the operation against OBL and left. Whether Pakistan agreed to or did not agree is quite questionable. Nobody knows who was in the know of this operation.

You, we, cannot respond to US attack without getting our own country and its defense capabilities destroyed. You should think through what "responding to the US attacks" entails. Talk is easy. Your answer is essentially generalities that do not delve into the results of your proposed actions i.e. "respond to US attack". Once we respond militarily, be ready for Pakistan's military capability being destroyed in a significant manner including our ability to fend off India.

As far as "resigning" goes, what would that do when a supposed ally takes action flying nap of the earth missions? Should we have deployed radars running 24x7x365 and CAPs constantly flying against the Pak-Afghan border? Would the GoP have been able to fund this massive round the year operation?

As far as the drone attacks are concerned, keep in mind that many took out anti-Pakistani Taliban, others took out AQ and some did indeed result in collateral damage. Choices with Pakistan were to demonstrate vocally which was done or shut the NATO supply (which was done after 20+ of our troops were killed) to lastly sending our own aircraft to shoot down American drones. In response we would have got our Air Force decimated, sanctions put on, economy in free fall, get declared State Sponsor of Terrorism (as the US controls UN) and countless other damaging ramifications. So the populist rhetoric of even IK goes only so far. His government is being upended because he says Americans did not like him visiting the Russians. What do you imagine would happen if we militarily responded to the US?

Raheel Sharif is in KSA leading the Counter Terrorism initiative for the Khalijis at the invite of the KSA. I don't know where Kayani is, but Gens Beg, Kakar, and Karamat are all in Pakistan. People move overseas to be with their families at times. Many stay back. I don't see a sinister trend here as you are trying to depict.

Only idiots claim ISI to be #1 or ascribe any such ratings to any intelligence outfits. I don't believe in this.

Assume they did not know of OBL, yet he was killed right in the military town. Was it not lapse of intel? Was there any accountability? There is something called integrity and morality both of which pakistani society completely lack. What oath do these officers take when they take commission?

You were not able to stop US drone attacks, yet you never demonstrated you were against it, and Foreign military was operating from your own soil, if they were killing anti pakistani element, why is there attacks still going on against you in your own country? If any of your blood relative will be killed in the name of collateral damage, what would he think of military? The short sightedness of Pakistani policymakers is stunning to say the least. Nato supply was shut because the army generals had no choice otherwise there would have been rebellion in the army. So wardi cares only about wardi, the rest of the country is just a cannon fodder for these generals.
Why is that in tenure of IK there is no drone attack?
Why does military need to respond to US militarily?

If he is leading the operation in KSA as you said (although i disagree, he is just there doing it as a symbolic job), than he is doing an amazing job when oil facilities are being targeted regularly and that too in heart of KSA.
The former COAS's that are in Pakistan did not get involved much in politics, finished their tenure without any major incident against Pak.

 

[PakSarZameen47]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1509968652744933386

 

[blain2]

Assume they did not know of OBL, yet he was killed right in the military town. Was it not lapse of intel? Was there any accountability? There is something called integrity and morality both of which pakistani society completely lack. What oath do these officers take when they take commission?

You were not able to stop US drone attacks, yet you never demonstrated you were against it, and Foreign military was operating from your own soil, if they were killing anti pakistani element, why is there attacks still going on against you in your own country? If any of your blood relative will be killed in the name of collateral damage, what would he think of military? The short sightedness of Pakistani policymakers is stunning to say the least. Nato supply was shut because the army generals had no choice otherwise there would have been rebellion in the army. So wardi cares only about wardi, the rest of the country is just a cannon fodder for these generals.
Why is that in tenure of IK there is no drone attack?
Why does military need to respond to US militarily?

If he is leading the operation in KSA as you said (although i disagree, he is just there doing it as a symbolic job), than he is doing an amazing job when oil facilities are being targeted regularly and that too in heart of KSA.
The former COAS's that are in Pakistan did not get involved much in politics, finished their tenure without any major incident against Pak.

"There is something called integrity and morality both of which pakistani society completely lack. What oath do these officers take when they take commission?"

What does the killing of OBL have anything to do with the oath taken by officers? He was a foreigner hiding in Pakistan. Americans came and killed him. Why is the Pakistani military responsible for his security/upkeep? Lapse of intel is a foregone conclusion. Do you think we have ISI posted on every street corner? If we decided to hide him, the Americans had the benefit of technology. Perhaps your anger should be directed at people like Dr Afridi instead of the military. Expecting the military/ISI to know everything at all times is comical. Let's get a little real here please.

"You were not able to stop US drone attacks, yet you never demonstrated you were against it, and Foreign military was operating from your own soil, if they were killing anti pakistani element, why is there attacks still going on against you in your own country?"

Perhaps you did not read the newspapers from those days. Every single strike was condemned by the Pakistani government. I read that with my own eyes in the Dawn/Jang. I must say this about Musharraf, PPP and PML governments, they all protested. Contrary to your claim, the US did not operate their drones from Pakistan soil. They did not need that as they had many bases in Afghanistan. Contrary to the populist rhetoric, many of these same strikes killed the very same people who were conducting suicide bombings all over Pakistan.

"If any of your blood relative will be killed in the name of collateral damage, what would he think of military? The short sightedness of Pakistani policymakers is stunning to say the least. Nato supply was shut because the army generals had no choice otherwise there would have been rebellion in the army. So wardi cares only about wardi, the rest of the country is just a cannon fodder for these generals."

Far more died in the suicide bombings conducted against our very own people by these terrorists compared to those killed in drone strikes. The vast majority of our 80,000 dead come from terrorist attacks and suicide bombings by our own people against other Pakistanis. So some perspective would help here.
Yes, the army generals had no choice because you were not the one to carry the fight to the Americans and lose out in the end. They made the right decision weighing the pros and cons. Had PMIK been there, he would have come to this exact same conclusion. Last, Wardi cares about Pakistan, always has, always will that is why it lost 7,000 dead and suffered more than 30,000 WIA:

Your lashing out at the army is entirely misplaced. Your anger is over PTI being outplayed by political thieves. Let's not drag the army into this.

"Why is that in tenure of IK there is no drone attack?

The Afghan war was on its tail end by the time IK took office. The Americans had decided to pair back their operations and let ANA do the fighting. In addition, most of the Taliban had moved inside of Afghanistan because the Taliban had taken over Kandahar and surrounding areas. Americans themselves came to the conclusion that it was of no use hitting targets in FATA any longer. So the change in tactics, change in USG, change on the ground co-incided with IK taking over. It was not some deft policy/negotiation by PMIK that led to this outcome.

Why does military need to respond to US militarily?"

How else would the military respond? Can you enlighten us with options available to Pakistan besides verbal protest, shutting down NATO supply routes (by the time IK took over NATO's dependency had also lessened)? What other options were available to Pakistan to respond and teach amreekis a lesson?

"If he is leading the operation in KSA as you said (although i disagree, he is just there doing it as a symbolic job), than he is doing an amazing job when oil facilities are being targeted regularly and that too in heart of KSA."

I don't care about what he is doing in KSA. How is that even relevant to this discussion?

"The former COAS's that are in Pakistan did not get involved much in politics, finished their tenure without any major incident against Pak."

I am not sure how old you are, because either you were not around or are not aware of the ongoings then. BB hated Beg and NS was not too fond of him either. Gen Kakar had to broker peace between the troika (GIK, BB and NS) constantly in his tenure and had to advise BB to call for elections. Gen. Karamat quit his job because of the dirty politics. So given the political immaturity in Pakistan, every single CoAS has had to broker peace.

 

[pkuser2k12]

The next pm Ladies and gentlemen

https://twitter.com/x/status/1510006608264409094

https://twitter.com/x/status/1510036211913539586

https://twitter.com/x/status/1509972527589830665

 

[khansaheeb]

4th meeting

What in the halwa poory is going on in there!

Offering Chai to the PM no doubt.