CM-400AKG: A tough job for the Indian Navy

[Safriz]

CM 400AKG follows nothing as of now.No body has seen it flying.It seems like poor Pakistani awam is again begin taken for a ride by the rulling elite.As they say,people will always be taken for a ride as they want to be taken for a ride!!

Quasi-ballistic...not ballistic...

 

[Jungibaaz]

That makes sense, so jf17 could locate a ship from stand off ranges(do you know at what range? 135km ? ) and take a shot, but I guess a long range shot will have very less pk.

My little analysis is just a guess from an average joe.
My understanding is crude, but due to the range and speed factors, I'm guessing the missile could have this kind of capability.

And yes, long range shots always have less P kill, no matter what we're talking about.
But with a max range of 240km, the JF-17 could probably detect ships from even 200km away or possibly even further. The JF-17 would also need to launch it from the optimum altitude of around 12,000-15,000m.

But the issue with that range is that the radar warning receivers on the ship and the radar on the ship will probably see the JF-17 at the same time as or before the JF-17 sees it. At long ranges, the missile that relies on guidance from the JFT, assuming that the JFT is at a safe range from the target, is more susceptible to the ships countermeasures. The further away you are from your target, the more time your target has to react.

 

[Omega007]

That's plenty of range, and in fact who's to say it's not closer to 300km?
After all it's bound by treaty to under 300km range.

but for any sort, do you expect a fighter to launch and guide a missile at a target more then 300km away?
At that range, the target ship has lots of time to deploy counter measures and also detection and continuous lock could be a problem.

Even harpoon for example has >300km range for all variants.



With this missile it can be given a single area to get to before it becomes active, with a terminal velocity of mach 5, even at mid-course it should at least be supersonic, it wont take long before it reaches the intended area and last known location of a ship, in that time, I don't expect the carrier or it's battle group to have gone too far or even moved at all, then when it's close enough it could use it's active guidance to home in during terminal phase.

Do you even know what are you talking.By all accounts,your so carrier killer is a top attack system.Now what you are suggesting has been tried before by the USA-that firing a missile to a predetermined point,hoping it to aquire its target from that point.Trust me,it didn't work very good.Infact,the results were so dissapointing that they have since discarded the practise.What makes you think that PAF can achieve the same??

 

[Jungibaaz]

To kill a carrier in carrier battle group is tough job (though not impossible)
1. First point of defense is Patroling aircraft (su30mki/MiG29K)
2. second layer of defence is Air defense ships (usually frigates n subs) with 3 layer of security, LRSAM, MR-SAM, SR-SAM
3. 3rd layer of security is Carrier itself, the SAM on carrier
4. 4th layer of security is gatelling gun, it create a wall of bullets in front of invader...
Finally, if missile hit Carrier the massive size of carrier itself is defense , It will be unusable but not destroyed...
Welcome Carrier Killer....

You can't just dismiss a threat just like that.
The above is true for all carriers, not just yours.
The above factors make it more difficult, but it doesn't make it less of a threat.

What if for example, there are 2 enemy aircraft that ripple fire 4 ASM at you? Or more?
Rest assured, if an enemy wants to kill a carrier, they will do whatever they can to overwhelm the carriers defences.

1st layer of defence works if you intercept enemy aircraft in time, given that it can fire an ASM from well above 100km away, makes that more difficult.

As for SAMs, the Indian holds a gem of a SAM, the Barak 8, but AFAIk, the naval variant has some 70km and a flight ceiling less far less than the altitude the CM-400AKG will make in it's approach.

So yes, Barak 8 could successfully intercept one, maybe two or more. But somewhere along the line, there is slight probability that it fails, especially if you consider the fact that the ASM head towards you at hypersonic speeds. there it always a probability of failure to intercept. And the odds way heavily for the carrier, if the missile is intercepted, the enemy loses an ASM worth $ million or a few ASM worth a few million, if the ASM is not successfully intercepted, your $ billions carrier and it's on board aircraft are in danger.

Then you mentioned Gatling gun, or CIWS, these only work in certain areas around the ship and only as a last resort, they intercept it the missile from very close range, the probability of interception for a hypersonic missile at such close ranges is also a problem. And also, if CIWS successfully intercepts the missile approaching at high speeds, the debris of the missile still hurtling towards you at high speed poses a threat, one that the ship can't and wont attempt to intercept.

I'm not saying carriers wont shoot down ASM.
After all, they are billion dollar assets and people who own them, will make an effort to protect them and will protect them very effectively.

But don't just assume that they aren't a threat.

 

[Omya]

assuming that the JFT is at a safe range from the target, is more susceptible to the ships countermeasures. The further away you are from your target, the more time your target has to react.

n as per gessler's (wel u know him) analysis - missile cannot be re-programmed to hit a different target or change it's flight path mid-way through, which means hitting moving targets is an impossibility.

 

[perplexed]

no photos not launch videos and nothing substantial ! And here we have a carrier killer cheerleading FTW !!

 

[Omega007]

My little analysis is just a guess from an average joe.
My understanding is crude, but due to the range and speed factors, I'm guessing the missile could have this kind of capability.

And yes, long range shots always have less P kill, no matter what we're talking about.
But with a max range of 240km, the JF-17 could probably detect ships from even 200km away or possibly even further. The JF-17 would also need to launch it from the optimum altitude of around 12,000-15,000m.

But the issue with that range is that the radar warning receivers on the ship and the radar on the ship will probably see the JF-17 at the same time as or before the JF-17 sees it. At long ranges, the missile that relies on guidance from the JFT, assuming that the JFT is at a safe range from the target, is more susceptible to the ships countermeasures. The further away you are from your target, the more time your target has to react.

You are forgetting some crucial things here.Firstly,a smaller diameter mechanical radar like KLJ-7 can never pick up a ship at 250 km due to heavy clutter,lesser range for look down mode,period.
180-200 km should be more realistic.But even if you can detect the AC at 180-200km range,you can never get a missile lock at that range,for that you have to come at 120-150 km from your target.At that range,your fighter would be as good as dead.

 

[Safriz]

You are forgetting some crucial things here.Firstly,a smaller diameter mechanical radar like KLJ-7 can never pick up a ship at 250 km due to heavy clutter,lesser range for look down mode,period.
180-200 km should be more realistic.But even if you can detect the AC at 180-200km range,you can never get a missile lock at that range,for that you have to come at 120-150 km from your target.At that range,your fighter would be as good as dead.

Its a fire and forget missile.thats why it has seekers...
JF 17 dont need to loiter in the area.

 

[BlueDot_in_Space]

16 pages of discussion for a ghost missile?

 

[Omya]

@Jungibaaz

The above is true for all carriers, not just yours.
The above factors make it more difficult, but it doesn't make it less of a threat.

im aware of it..

What if for example, there are 2 enemy aircraft that ripple fire 4 ASM at you? Or more?
Rest assured, if an enemy wants to kill a carrier, they will do whatever they can to overwhelm the carriers defences.

1st layer of defence works if you intercept enemy aircraft in time, given that it can fire an ASM from well above 100km away, makes that more difficult.

As for SAMs, the Indian holds a gem of a SAM, the Barak 8, but AFAIk, the naval variant has some 70km and a flight ceiling less far less than the altitude the CM-400AKG will make in it's approach.

So yes, Barak 8 could successfully intercept one, maybe two or more. But somewhere along the line, there is slight probability that it fails, especially if you consider the fact that the ASM head towards you at hypersonic speeds. there it always a probability of failure to intercept. And the odds way heavily for the carrier, if the missile is intercepted, the enemy loses an ASM worth $ million or a few ASM worth a few million, if the ASM is not successfully intercepted, your $ billions carrier and it's on board aircraft are in danger.

Then you mentioned Gatling gun, or CIWS, these only work in certain areas around the ship and only as a last resort, they intercept it the missile from very close range, the probability of interception for a hypersonic missile at such close ranges is also a problem. And also, if CIWS successfully intercepts the missile approaching at high speeds, the debris of the missile still hurtling towards you at high speed poses a threat, one that the ship can't and wont attempt to intercept.

I'm not saying carriers wont shoot down ASM.
After all, they are billion dollar assets and people who own them, will make an effort to protect them and will protect them very effectively.

But don't just assume that they aren't a threat.

pakistan is not going to send a single plane carrying cm400akg, dere will b at least 5, each carrying 2 cm400akg... n at least 50-70 jets to cover those planes.... n such a huge force will easily show up in radar....su30mki n mig29 r much better planes dan jf17... i think pakistan has 5 to 10% chance of hitting n fully destroying indian carrier....

 

[Omega007]

continued from above,
By the time your fighter reaches at that 130-150 km range,the carrier borne fighters will most probably be on position or will be on their way towards the bogey to intercept him because in all probability those Elta El/M 2248 MF STAR and BEL RAN 4OL/RAWLs onboard those ships of CBG would pick up the fighter earlier than the other way round.So the fighter may not even have the chance to launch its missile.
And even if he manages to launch the missile,he can not leave station or for the matter of fact,can't even leave the line of sight with the missile in order to give the targetting que.Now the question is,will the fighter be able to do all these when the Mig 29Ks will be on to him??Food for thought.
Besides,fighters like JF 17 and Mig 29Ks those use mechanically steered monopulse single frequency radars are highly vulnerable to electronic jamming and as they lack LPI mode,the moment the JF 17 would activate the radar,it would give away its position.
So it may seem to be easy to kill a aircraft carrier,but if you give a good thought,it no longer seems to be that much easy.

 

[Omya]

Its a fire and forget missile.thats why it has seekers...
JF 17 dont need to loiter in the area.

reaching with in range of 200-240 k.m. is impossible for jf17

 

[Omega007]

Its a fire and forget missile.thats why it has seekers...
JF 17 dont need to loiter in the area.

Oh yeah,how could I ever forget that CM-400AKG is a 'fire and forget' missile that has its own seeker and doesn't need midcourse target update-Bull ****.And if that's how yot wanna expend your missiles,PLEASE do it.Our IN wouldn't have to do anything on their own.
Buddy,the small seeker on the missile can track the target from very close range only-like 15-20 km.And if you launch your 'carrier killer' without midcourse target update then your CM-400AKG will definitely become a true 'Fire and Forget' missile in the sence that if you fire it in your mentioned way,then you can FORGET about hitting your target.

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

CM 400AKG follows nothing as of now.No body has seen it flying.It seems like poor Pakistani awam is again begin taken for a ride by the rulling elite.As they say,people will always be taken for a ride as they want to be taken for a ride!!

yes it's still in development stage, but rumours are that it's not a cruise missile as it's not powered in the terminal stage and follows a ballistic path but within the atmosphere.Things will become clearer in the future.


http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...carrier-killer-3.html#post3642162#post3642623
see the link

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...-supersonic-carrier-killer-3.html#post3642162
this one says it's operational.