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Chumik Operation 1989

If you look at the maps, the topography shows that the rivers flow towards the Indian Nubra. This suggests that artillery bombardment or air strikes would cause greater avalanche damage on the Indian side than the Pakistani side. A major artillery and airstrike barrage followed by air assault could possibly dislodge the enemy.

@Signalian @PanzerKiel

Turtuk and its surrounding areas are important., along with kargil. Both avenues lead to Leh.

It's easy to dislodge the Indians all we need is light powerful artillery and uav designation targeting supply dumps and enemy gun positions effectively will force the Indians to give up it's that simple only if we have the courage to continually bomb the Indians until everything is thin air buy some high altitude uavs from turkey and some good light howitzers and rest is up to the men
Its better to utilise full support of PAF in taking other areas than Siachen in an event of war. Siachen sector has limited options available and instead of throwing man power on Siachen, it might be better to contour them around Turtuk, Batalik and Kargil supported by PAF, launching sorties from Skardu and Gilgit AFBs.

Posting a 2017 article i found.

Dominating the Mountain Warfare Narrative in the Indian Context
By Deepak Sinha

Even today, we are yet to fully overcome the trauma of the manner in which the Chinese People’s Liberation Army (PLA) outflanked and enveloped our defences in Arunachal Pradesh and Ladakh, overwhelming 4 Infantry Division from the former. This was indeed ironic given the fact that the Red Eagle Division, as it was famously known, made its formidable reputation in the mountains of Eritrea in March 1941 where it defeated a hugely superior Italian Force at Keren and subsequently went on to achieve even greater success at the Second and Third Battles for Monte Cassino in Italy against strongly entrenched German forces. Field Marshal Lord Wavell said of the Division that “The fame of this Division will surely go down as one of the greatest fighting formations in military history, to be spoken of with such as The Tenth Legion, The Light Division of the Peninsular War and Napoleon's Old Guard"i .

This debacle resulted in wide ranging reorganizations and expansions within the Indian Army. This included the upgrading of the Ski School into the High Altitude Warfare School and the raising of ten mountain divisons that were organized equipped and trained for operations in High Altitude Areas (HAA). Defensive tactics were evolved and our positions along the LAC were greatly strengthened. The military’s self- confidence in its ability to fight and win conflicts in mountains received a boost firstly because of the success achieved in the Nathu La-Cho La skirmish with the PLA in 1967 and the manner in which the Sumdorong Chu incident of 1987 was robustly handled.

The focus came back on the mountains with the occupation of Siachin Glacier in 1984 by India just a day ahead of Pakistan’s Operation Ababeel. Operation Meghdoot successfully allowed Indian forces to occupy most of the dominating heights on Saltoro Ridge to the west of Siachen Glacier. In hindsight attempts by China and Pakistan to cozy up militarily has been thwarted to a large extent as the Saltoro Heights dominate the entire region up to the Karakoram Pass including the Shaksgam Valley that has been illegally ceded to China by Pakistan. It also provides depth to Leh and Kargil and has assumed greater importance in view of the China-Pakistan Economic Corridor (CPEC) that is being constructed.iv Most importantly, operating at 5000m over the past four decades has given Indian forces valuable insights into specialized warfare and greatly enhanced Indian capabilities to fight in Extreme Cold and High Altitude conditions and terrain. To a large extent, it was the inability of the Pakistan Army to wrest Siachin from India that led them to their launching the ill-fated operations that led to the Kargil Conflict of 1999.

While Pakistan used deception and surprise in the initial phase to occupy a large number of unoccupied heights overlooking the Srinagar-Leh Axis, it was unable to sustain its troops logistically. Based on a political directive disallowing any ingress into Pakistan Occupied Kashmir, the Indian Army was forced to resort to a series of conventional frontal attacks along spur lines to evict Pakistani forces. This was successfully achieved with the use of massed artillery and sheer determination, grit and dogged courage on the part of the assaulting infantry. The use of cliff assault techniques too played a major role in achieving success. But victory was won at great cost, with over 400 dead and another 1000 wounded. While the LAC with China has remained quiet in recent times, with the occasional ingress into Indian Territory, more to ensure that its claims continue to remain in the limelight rather than with any real offensive intent. It is the LOC with Pakistan that has continued to be unsettled and active due to Pakistan’s unfulfilled ambitions and its involvement in the proxy war in Jammu and Kashmir.


Nonetheless, China does pose a serious concern in the long term given its ongoing attempts to challenge United States domination, especially in Asia. Moreover, while our borders with China are in the mountains and any conflict with them will obviously involve combat in mountainous and high altitude terrain, it seems increasingly possible that conflict with Pakistan may also be primarily restricted to the mountains as well. This is because given the fact that both states are declared nuclear powers conventional operations in the plains of Punjab and Rajasthan will be restricted in time and space to avoid escalation leading to a nuclear exchange. Thus there is little choice for us except to focus on enhancing our mountain and high altitude warfare capabilities. Thin air at high altitudes combined with extremely low temperatures and uncertain and rapidly changing weather conditions poses unique challenges that test human endurance and the military’s capabilities to wage war at those altitudes to extreme limits. The rarefied atmosphere and cold reduce human ability to sustain at such altitudes for long periods despite acclimatization. The heights, terrain and gradients make movement on foot extremely slow and torturous apart from greatly hampering the ability to construct required infrastructure for sustaining operations. Weather conditions and cold greatly reduce accuracy and effectiveness of weapons and equipment, including helicopters, aircraft, artillery and electronic equipment. Therefore, while technology, especially ICT, Artificial Intelligence and robotics may have transformed warfare, including traditional organizational structures, its impact on forces deployed and required to fight in mountains has been minimal.

The old adage that “mountains eat up troops” continues to hold good despite state of the art technology, especially force multipliers such as surveillance systems, communications equipment, light weight weapons and survival gear along with precision munitions, having impacted the theatre of operations. These technologies have however allowed for changes in tactical doctrine as it has made it feasible for troops to remain in combat for longer durations, improved survivability and enhanced fighting potential and destructive capabilities. In his thesis “High Altitude Warfare: The Kargil Conflict and the Future” Marcus P Acosta correctly concludes that “Revolutions in technology drive tactical change. Yet certain regions of the world remain largely unaffected by the full reach of advances in military technology. Thin air, cold weather, and mountainous terrain combine to create a uniquely inhospitable battlefield at high altitude. The elements of military victory at high altitude have not dramatically changed. Overwhelming fire, in concert with bold maneuver, continues to determine victory on the high altitude battlefield.

The emergence of precision warfare has yet to dominate combat in the timeless environs of the world’s highest mountains. In our context, there have been attempts to enhance our war waging capabilities in the mountains, especially against any potential adventurism by China. While there has been increasing focus on improvement of infrastructure in the North- East and some roads and other infrastructure have either been constructed or improved, there is a long way to go in this regard.

This is especially urgent if our Mountain Strike Corps (MSC) that is being raised is to be able to meet its mission objectives. It is another matter that in its present avatar the MSC is incapable of acting as a strategic countervailing force for sustained offensive actions against the PLA mounting bases in Tibet. Most analysts see this force as being prepositioned as uncommitted reserves to be utilized to stabilize the situation if required. While there are those who question the very viability of any corps level offensive against the PLA into Tibet, the fact of the matter is that offense is the best form of defense and we must change our military’s mindset from avoiding defeat to grasping for victory, much in keeping with Sun Tzu...... “Security against defeat implies defensive tactics; ability to defeat the enemy means taking the offensive”.


In this context there is an urgent need to reconsider the organization of the MSC as it presently stands and reorient its capabilities to be able to undertake offensive tasks in depth in conjunction with our Special Operations Forces (SOF). It needs to be considerably lighter and provided with air-mobile specialized mountain warfare trained and equipped units with adequate and compatible combat support and logistics elements. The procurement of the light weight M777 155mm Howitzers from the United States is a welcome step in this direction as it will greatly enhance available firepower. Given the size and capabilities of our SOF there is an urgent need to reorient them, especially the Parachute Brigade, for operations in mountains. In any future conflict our SOF must have the ability to conduct irregular warfare and tie down PLA formations prior to hostilities. Subsequently they should prepare the theatre of operations by isolating the Tibet Autonomous Region (TAR) by cutting off road and rail communications. At the commencement of hostilities at an appropriate time provide a suitable air head(s) from where strike elements can debouch to capture vital areas that would either delay/dissuade the PLA from launching an offensive or force them to recoil, if they have already done so. Such a capability has an added advantage in that it also gives our political leadership additional strategic options in any conflict that may occur against Pakistan.

In conclusion it is necessary for our politico-military leadership to reorient our forces for dealing with any contingency that may arise along the LOC/LAC in our mountainous regions. In any event we must take full advantage of the long experience and high levels of expertise and skill-sets available within our army for combat in extreme high altitudes and mountainous terrain. These are battle winning factors and need to be supplemented with the required infrastructural development and procurement of suitable weapons and equipment that will ensure victory.

(The writer is a military veteran and consultant with the Observer Research Foundation)
 
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@Signalian since a war in Siachen won't actually count for a war (as there is no LOC), this may be a Pakistani version of a "cold start" to go into Siachen. In a full scale war, of course there are better avenues but one cannot repeat a Kargil on the CFL.
 
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@Signalian since a war in Siachen won't actually count for a war (as there is no LOC), this may be a Pakistani version of a "cold start" to go into Siachen. In a full scale war, of course there are better avenues but one cannot repeat a Kargil on the CFL.

You won’t be able to achieve any goal in Siachen without air support. We tried going in before with only PA and that did not work. But, if you throw in the air force, and you succeed then what stops the other side from opening any other front like they did in 65? Either go in with full force expecting to wrap up the entire operation before IA can open up any other front or don’t go at all for doing a half a$$ed job.
 
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You won’t be able to achieve any goal in Siachen without air support. We tried going in before with only PA and that did not work. But, if you throw in the air force, and you succeed then what stops the other side from opening any other front like they did in 65? Either go in with full force expecting to wrap up the entire operation before IA can open up any other front or don’t go at all for doing a half a$$ed job.


I actually agree and had a similar conversation somewhere with @PanzerKiel that the AF would be needed. I think it could be part of a "cold start" where Pakistan preempts an Indian attack. Simultaneously, there could be operations in other sectors as well.

Basically this will lead to a war in Kashmir. If not all along the international border. But the onus is on India as they are the ones that Took Siachen illegally and are holding onto it illegally. There is no LOC there. Theoretical LOC India is in major violation of.

A move in Siachen would force India into making an attempt in GB or AK. And the PA would be ready to pounce on that.
 
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long story short - if we wanted to take Siachen then the '03 ceasefire would have never been agreed to.

Once IA dug-in at the Saltoro in '84, PA never tried to make an all-out assault to clear them out - it was an unassailable task in that terrain and climate, plus the PA can never bring about the force ratio needed for such ops in high-altitude terrain w/o altering balance in plains/deserts. Hence all skirmishes were just at tac level with local objectives. Thanks to their height domination we were disadvantaged in this aspect too.

Koh-e-Paima was a promising adventure; the faulty assessment of enemy capacity and own ultrasecrecy made sure that the opportunity to pay back for Meghdoot and Neelum Valley interdiction, slipped away prematurely.
 
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Pakistani generals are always afraid India will start a war technically siachen is not loc its stolen territory only way to dislodge the Indians is with uavs and good artillery power hitting them in a secluded zone for a long time and launching offensive at peaks or ridges is the way too go the Indians have high morale at siachen we should target their supply dumps food supplies and cause havoc amongst them they would leave the glacier in hurry pakistan has always had superior planning but we lack will power we are scared that America will impose sanctions so what how long are we going to camp at the bottom of siachen it's time to take it back
 
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A well fortified position can only last so long without logistical supply high altitude uavs are perfect for decimating bunkers on mountain tops that coupled with artillery fire and then using uav to blow the supply chain what a operation it will be
long story short - if we wanted to take Siachen then the '03 ceasefire would have never been agreed to.

Once IA dug-in at the Saltoro in '84, PA never tried to make an all-out assault to clear them out - it was an unassailable task in that terrain and climate, plus the PA can never bring about the force ratio needed for such ops in high-altitude terrain w/o altering balance in plains/deserts. Hence all skirmishes were just at tac level with local objectives. Thanks to their height domination we were disadvantaged in this aspect too.

Koh-e-Paima was a promising adventure; the faulty assessment of enemy capacity and own ultrasecrecy made sure that the opportunity to pay back for Meghdoot and Neelum Valley interdiction, slipped away prematurely.
 
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I actually agree and had a similar conversation somewhere with @PanzerKiel that the AF would be needed. I think it could be part of a "cold start" where Pakistan preempts an Indian attack. Simultaneously, there could be operations in other sectors as well.

He also pointed out that using air force will cause avalanches which may inadvertently cause more harm to us and the supporting back areas as well a nightmare supply problem. So, weigh the risks and rewards carefully before committing to this.

Basically this will lead to a war in Kashmir. If not all along the international border. But the onus is on India as they are the ones that Took Siachen illegally and are holding onto it illegally. There is no LOC there. Theoretical LOC India is in major violation of.

No one in the International scene is concerned about Kashmir as long as it does not lead to MAD. if such a scenarios evolves, only then would any major international player come in to play their role. The "grab and hold" strategy is in play in Kashmir as long as it does not spill over to any other place.

A move in Siachen would force India into making an attempt in GB or AK. And the PA would be ready to pounce on that.

What's stopping it from crossing over the International border? What is your contingency plan then? Any move in Siachen has to be sure of victory before Indians can open any new front
 
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He also pointed out that using air force will cause avalanches which may inadvertently cause more harm to us and the supporting back areas as well a nightmare supply problem. So, weigh the risks and rewards carefully before committing to this.



No one in the International scene is concerned about Kashmir as long as it does not lead to MAD. if such a scenarios evolves, only then would any major international player come in to play their role. The "grab and hold" strategy is in play in Kashmir as long as it does not spill over to any other place.



What's stopping it from crossing over the International border? What is your contingency plan then? Any move in Siachen has to be sure of victory before Indians can open any new front

I've discussed a wider contingency plan in various thread. But I'm sure the PA plans are not based on a Bangladeshi's ramblings on PDF : )
 
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If you look at the maps, the topography shows that the rivers flow towards the Indian Nubra. This suggests that artillery bombardment or air strikes would cause greater avalanche damage on the Indian side than the Pakistani side. A major artillery and airstrike barrage followed by air assault could possibly dislodge the enemy.

@Signalian @PanzerKiel
Nubra source is main siachin glacier, yes,, but the front line is on saltoro range, around each and every peak there are various small and big glaciers, like sia glacier, bilafond glacier and many others...these effect both sides, their supply routes etc.

It's easy to dislodge the Indians all we need is light powerful artillery and uav designation targeting supply dumps and enemy gun positions effectively will force the Indians to give up it's that simple only if we have the courage to continually bomb the Indians until everything is thin air buy some high altitude uavs from turkey and some good light howitzers and rest is up to the men
Will is important BUT it is not easy to dislodge each other from those peaks. India has siachin today only because it was unoccupied. after the start of conflict very few changes have occured.

A well fortified position can only last so long without logistical supply high altitude uavs are perfect for decimating bunkers on mountain tops that coupled with artillery fire and then using uav to blow the supply chain what a operation it will be
What about IAF, IA Arty ?, have you cattered for that ?
 
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Nubra source is main siachin glacier, yes,, but the front line is on saltoro range, around each and every peak there are various small and big glaciers, like sia glacier, bilafond glacier and many others...these effect both sides, their supply routes etc.


Will is important BUT it is not easy to dislodge each other from those peaks. India has siachin today only because it was unoccupied. after the start of conflict very few changes have occured.


What about IAF, IA Arty ?, have you cattered for that ?

I think a careful study can be done, if things heat up with airstrikes and artillery, and the house comes down, who will be worse off?
And if there will be an opening for airborne assault after that. Since PAF can be expected to maintain air superiority over Siachen, who will benefit from the house of cards coming down?

After that careful analysis is done, all you need are balls.

Touché my friend :cheers:

touche :cheers:
 
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@Signalian since a war in Siachen won't actually count for a war (as there is no LOC), this may be a Pakistani version of a "cold start" to go into Siachen. In a full scale war, of course there are better avenues but one cannot repeat a Kargil on the CFL.
3 x Inf brigades of FCNA.
1 x Brigade sized GB scouts force which is spread all over.

This is a defending force which can defend against an IA attack but to launch an attack and carry on that attack towards any axis, lets suppose the axis is Leh, a bigger force with stretched logistics line, flanks and peaks covered on all roads and intersections plus full PAF participation is required. Continuous sorties from PAF which not only strike enemy targets on the ground but also gain air superiority so if any progress is made, it doesnt get hampered by IAF strikes. PA will need motorized transport to carry on the offensive, where as most of the areas inside AJK are mule tracks. More PA forces brought in as reinforcements means more logistics and supply required. If the roads get blocked through any cause, the delay will cost dearly. Heli is the fastest transport option that PA has got to insert troops whether on peaks/intersections or re-supply. If there are bridges and enemy blows them up, that will leave vehicles stranded on the road unable to move ahead till engineers find an alternative or modify terrain for vehicles to cross over.

In any case, without PAF air cover there is hardly a chance for PA ground forces to make any breakthrough or continue offensively. See the amount of tonnes expended by IAF in Kargil war, pounding peak after peak to dislodge PA forces. IAF will try to take out Skardu AFB as priority.
 
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3 x Inf brigades of FCNA.
1 x Brigade sized GB scouts force which is spread all over.

This is a defending force which can defend against an IA attack but to launch an attack and carry on that attack towards any axis, lets suppose the axis is Leh, a bigger force with stretched logistics line, flanks and peaks covered on all roads and intersections plus full PAF participation is required. Continuous sorties from PAF which not only strike enemy targets on the ground but also gain air superiority so if any progress is made, it doesnt get hampered by IAF strikes. PA will need motorized transport to carry on the offensive, where as most of the areas inside AJK are mule tracks. More PA forces brought in as reinforcements means more logistics and supply required. If the roads get blocked through any cause, the delay will cost dearly. Heli is the fastest transport option that PA has got to insert troops whether on peaks/intersections or re-supply. If there are bridges and enemy blows them up, that will leave vehicles stranded on the road unable to move ahead till engineers find an alternative or modify terrain for vehicles to cross over.

In any case, without PAF air cover there is hardly a chance for PA ground forces to make any breakthrough or continue offensively. See the amount of tonnes expended by IAF in Kargil war, pounding peak after peak to dislodge PA forces. IAF will try to take out Skardu AFB as priority.
... Just to add..

The last time someone thought of a serious assault against well defended positions A BIT BELOW Siachen, the attack ratios were calculated at 16:1.
 
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