Christian couple charged with blasphemy in Gojra

[indusporus]

Seeing what they do with Muslims in their Christian Countries, If the christians r treated roughly in Muslim Countries makes perfect sense as we dont own anything to them in Muslim Countries.

and you call yourself as a person belonging to religion of peace? I don't know what your religion truly teaches but that surely doesn't sound peaceful.

 

[Not Sure]

this law was introduce in 1860 by british government......India, Pakistan, and Bangladesh all follow the same law (with local amendments off course)

No, this particular blasphemy law in Pakistan that has been taken advantage of against the minorities was carefully framed by Zia ul Haq, and Tahir ul Qadri even claims he was the mastermind in getting it passed.

 

[Umair Nawaz]

and you call yourself as a person belonging to religion of peace? I don't know what your religion truly teaches but that surely doesn't sound peaceful.

To hell with peace. If there is no respect then no respect will be given.

 

[HRK]

No, this particular blasphemy law in Pakistan that has been taken advantage of against the minorities was carefully framed by Zia ul Haq, and Tahir ul Qadri even claims he was the mastermind in getting it passed.

Dear In that post I was talking about first inception of this law in sub-continent.......+nobody drafted whole law in single era different governments participated in inclusion of different clauses and sub-clauses in it, pls read the constitutional history

regards,

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

Dear if you read your figures, it could also be translated as 4% of the population showed more tendency of committing a particular crime.......y....any logical explanation .....??? *

You are the one who is saying it could be because of 4% minority showing more tendency of committing particular crime, so you should sight on what grounds are you claiming so, unless you bring some logical reasons which explains this increased crime rate of minorities your claim doesn't stand. and I have sighted enough reasons to prove that minorities are targeted.

If you are into statistic or social research you will come to know only figures don’t portray accurate pictures, you have to add “facts” with them to reach to a “certain conclusion”......Y are u ignoring other 50%.....???

yes I know only statistics doesn't prove anything, that's why I away said " statistics along with news reports and failed attempts to reform the blasphemy law " will explain the things. 1) small differences in representation can be random, coincidental and found all around the world in different areas and matters but 4% representing 50% offenders, that's very drastic difference ,that alone is abnormal if you don't have strong reasons to explain such big difference it naturally points out to only one possibility, that minorities are being targeted. 2)what supplements point one is that you have different set strict sections exclusively for the protection of Islam only when 295 and 295-A already is there to protect all religions equally.so different set of stricter laws shows there is a discrimination in favour of Islam and other religious people *are naturally *targeted with this laws. * 3) There are numerous incidents reported by media to validate my first point, these news reports explains *that high percentage of minorities accused is because they are targeted not because they commit higher rate of offenses.Pakistan came under international criticism because of this incidents. I am not ignoring the 50% which comes from 97% of population,I think majority of them will be innocents who has done nothing wrong or *critics of Mullah versions of Islam.. I feel for them as well.so the first target is naturally minorities and then progressive Muslims and writers, artists etc.You need to give greater space to criticism and tolerance and threshold of something being called as offensive by people or even by the courts.

My dear even if I go with your logic then I should also raise queries about the high percentage of Muslim prisoners *in Indian jails for your kind information I am quoting some “figures” below * In Maharashtra, the percentage of Muslim jail inmates in all categories is way above their share in the population Muslim share in population is 10.6%, share in the total prison inmates is 32.4% . When it comes to those in prison for less than a year, Muslims contribute 40.6% of all prisoners in Maharashtra . In Gujarat, the percentage of Muslims in the state is just 9.06% but they make up over a quarter of all jail inmates . In Karnataka 17.5% of its jail inmates are Muslim as compared with 12.23% of its population . In Delhi, where Muslims make up 11.7% of the population, they constitute 29.1% of those in jail for less than a year. * Can you explain this trend my dear .......or is it just a coincidence in your word.......????

1)There is no big margin of difference in Muslims *representation in *state population *and prisoner representation.biggest difference shown is 22% where as in case of pak minorities the difference is 46%, more the double the figure of Muslim prisoners percentage. 2)There is no separate strict draconian *criminal laws which is in place to prosecute Muslims, it's all same for people from every religion. So that's enough to defend my point here.

Pakistani Society as a whole has never target any minority.....whatever may be the perception fact is straight this law is implemented in *indiscriminate manner that other 50% shows it ***

I showed you(within the limited point of blasphemy ) that with different set of laws for blasphemy it's discriminatory. don't force me to post all those false allegations cases,pressure by mob and Islamic parties on govt and police and even the lower judiciary etc here, Google it and see yourself.

And as for your comment about judiciary I would like to know your “facts and figures” on the basis of which you came to this conclusion......can you post the figure of “CONVICTED or *EXECUTED” by judiciary belongs to minority of Pakistan.

I brought what is available,if the conviction rate is same as statistics then my *points are same, different set of stricter laws explains it, if the conviction rate is low then I would appreciate your judiciary(higher courts only) on that but condemn the law makers which made discriminatory law which is prone to misuse and those Mullah mob which misused this law to target minorities and liberal voices within the Muslims. *

My dear You have problem with Islam or with Law or with both.....??

I have a problem with the with current stringent and discriminatory blasphemy law(you need to cut down the amount of punishment, law down strict clauses to Prevent misuse, abolish the clauses other than 295 and 295-A )and I have a problem with frauds and ultra sensitive and intolerant Muslims who misuse the law affects minorities as well as liberal Muslims, atheists and all kinds of critics and artists etc. *

And my dear who are you to decide who is progressive and who is not a progressive Muslim.....Islam ki thake dari aap ne lay rakhi hai.....???

as long as there is no universally accepted standard definition of " progressive Muslim " I can have my own concept just like you have your's, and we can debate about the points which we disagree.

BTW I would like to know your definition of “Progressive Muslim” ** *

sure, try this and feel free to ask for any clarification. * http://www.defence.pk/forums/members-club/267460-mullahism-v-s-liberalism-3.html#post4575634

* How my dear how......would you care to explain yourself.....y are you ignoring other 50%......as far as mob violence is concern plz quote number of incidents so that I could compare with Mob Violence/Justice incidents of India..... *

* I am all for that 50% also, *it's just that my primary point is that minorities are the biggest victims, that's all. Not just any mob violence, mob violence happens around the world for different reasons like political, religious, ethnic etc problems, point here is repeated target killings *by mob or assassin of the accused *even after court proclaim him to be innocent, that's the important point here, repeated incidents like this shows the level of extremism and intolerance. Even Punjab governer salman taseer and minorities minister Shahbaz Bhatti was murdered just because they spoke against blasphemy law, murdered of salman taseer was greeted with rose petals and garlands. * CRSS report: 52 murdered in two decades over blasphemy – The Express Tribune You many compare how many blasphemy *accused were assassinated by mob in India.

* & How is this my dear???. * It was you who quoted selected the section of law rather that complete law....it was you who ignored the absolute figures......it is you who is twisting fact to base your arguments without facts and figures..... * Khud aap hi apni adoo per ghoore kare Ham arz karain gat u shikayet ho gi...... * * If it is misused as you said then y the number of cases is so low....??? only around 1000 cases in 25 years......??? *

you were trying to mislead another country member(me) who is not aware of exact nature of blasphemy law by saying *blasphemy law is not discriminatory but in real it is, that's why I said you are lying, and I explained the other part already. * And 1000 cases in 25 years is low when compared to which, how many, *progressive countries ?

I may raise query regarding the logic behind the demand to remove these specific clauses.....??? If one is a law abiding citizen then Why he or she need raise demand to change the law....???

* Because laws are man made and that's why certain laws are amended or abolished when govt feels that they are being misused or there is high chances of misuse of the entire law or certain clauses *of law, that's what your govt were trying to do but couldn't do it because of the pressure from religious hardliners.example of such law *which was misused and later abolished or amended is POTA And TADA. Another one is *the hate speech law which police used to arrest online critics.so when you see that a law is misused widely you naturally will have to amend the law to make it less prone to misuse BTW what's the punishment for false allegations of blasphemy ? . * Prevention of Terrorism Act, 2002 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorist_and_Disruptive_Activities_(Prevention)_Act India to amend hate speech law after Facebook controversy | The Raw Story

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

Pakistan's blasphemy laws carry a potential death sentence for anyone who insults Islam. Critics say they have been used to persecute minority faiths.

What are the recent controversies?

The laws have been contentious since the formation of Pakistan in 1947, but attention in recent months has been focused on a teenage girl with learning difficulties, known as Rimsha, who was accused of desecrating the Koran. An imam was later arrested for allegedly planting evidence. Another prominent case is that of Christian mother-of-five Asia Bibi, sentenced to death in November 2010 for insulting the Prophet Muhammad.The following January Punjab Governor Salman Taseer - a prominent critic of the law - was assassinated by his bodyguard. The assassination divided Pakistan, with some hailing his killer as a hero.In March 2011 Religious Minorities Minister Shahbaz Bhatti, a Christian who spoke out against the laws, was shot dead in Islamabad.

When do the laws date from?

The offences relating to religion were first codified by India's British rulers in 1860, and were expanded in 1927. Pakistan inherited these laws after the partition of India in 1947.Between 1980 and 1986, a number of clauses were added to the laws by the military government of General Zia-ul Haq. He wanted to "Islamicise" them and also legally to separate the Ahmadi community, declared non-Muslim in 1973, from the main body of Pakistan's overwhelmingly Muslim population.Christians have often fallen foul of the blasphemy laws

What do the laws say?

The law enacted by the British was general in nature, prescribing punishments for intentionally destroying or defiling a place or an object of worship or disturbing a religious assembly. They also made it unlawful to trespass on burial grounds or insult religious beliefs through the spoken or written word or by innuendo or visible representation. The maximum punishment under these laws ranges from one year to 10 years in jail, with or without a fine.Beginning in 1980, a slew of clauses was added to the chapter of religious offences in the Pakistan Penal Code. These clauses can be grouped into two categories - the anti-Ahmadi laws and the blasphemy laws.The anti-Ahmadi laws were included in 1984. They bar the Ahmadis from calling themselves or behaving as Muslims, preaching their faith and using Islamic terms for their places of worship and religious rituals.The blasphemy laws were created and expanded in several instalments. In 1980, a clause was added to the law, making derogatory remarks against Islamic personages an offence, carrying a maximum punishment of three years in jail.In 1982, another clause prescribed life imprisonment for "wilful" desecration of the Koran, the Muslim holy book. In 1986, a separate clause was inserted to punish blasphemy against the Prophet Muhammad and the penalty recommended was "death, or imprisonment for life", in that order.

Who is affected by the laws?

The Human Rights Commission of Pakistan (HRCP) - a voluntary organisation - has been documenting blasphemy cases. It says that Muslims constitute the majority of those booked under these laws, followed by the Ahmadi community. According to the HRCP, since 1988 around 1,000 cases have been lodged for desecration of the Koran, while nearly 50 cases have been lodged for blasphemy against the Prophet Muhammad.Lower courts have handed down hundreds of convictions in these cases, but nearly all of them have been reversed by the higher courts due to lack of evidence, faults in due process or obvious wrongful motives on the part of the complainants. Hundreds of Christians are among the accused - at least 12 of them were given the death sentence for blaspheming against the Prophet.

Are they fairly applied?

At the level of the lower judiciary, there is often considerable pressure on the judges to order convictions, especially in cases relating to Ahmadis and blasphemy. But most decisions fail the test of the law at the higher judicial level, where offenders are often acquitted.One reason is that organised religious groups are able to influence lower judges more easily than judges of the higher courts, although their influence there is growing too. Second, rights groups say most cases are motivated by local rivalries which are more easily exposed by the higher judiciary than the lower courts.Legal experts say convictions under the law regulating blasphemy against the Prophet are easier to obtain because it does not establish a link between an offence and the intention, so that even an unintentional act can also be treated as a wilful offence.

Do most Pakistanis support the laws?

A large majority of Pakistani people support the idea that blasphemers should be punished, but there is little understanding of what the religious scripture says as opposed to how the modern-day law is codified.The response to recent events suggests that they largely believe the law, as codified by the military regime of General Zia-ul Haq back in the 1980s, is in fact straight out of the Koran and therefore is not man-made.The organised religious groups are promoting this view and have been able to mobilise mass support in their favour. Their highest point came when the assassin of Governor Salman Taseer in 2011 was hailed as a hero by a large section of people across the country.Christians have often fallen foul of the blasphemy laws

Why do the authorities appear reluctant to amend them?

Amending the blasphemy laws has been on the agenda of nearly all the popular secular parties. But none of them has made much progress - principally because of the sensitivities over the issue, but also because no major party wants to antagonise the religious parties which have on numerous occasions proved capable of bringing large numbers of protesters on to the streets.In 2010, a member of the ruling Pakistan People's Party (PPP), Sherry Rehman, introduced a private bill to amend the blasphemy law. Her bill sought to change procedures of religious offences in such a way that these offences would be reported to a higher police official rather than the usual police station chief. In addition the cases would be heard directly by the higher courts instead of going through the local courts first.The bill was passed on to a parliamentary committee for vetting. It was withdrawn in February 2011 under pressure from religious forces as well as some opposition political groups. Given the growing religious conservatism in Pakistan, the government is wary about losing public support over the issue, correspondents say.

BBC News - Q&A: Pakistan's controversial blasphemy laws

 

[HRK]

You are the one who is saying it could be because of 4% minority showing more tendency of committing particular crime, so you should sight on what grounds are you claiming so, unless you bring some logical reasons which explains this increased crime rate of minorities your claim doesn't stand.

Dear y are you trying to put your word in my mouth, what I said was simple & understandable for any person having average IQ.......what I said was plain and simple......”only statistic can be interpreted as per the wishes of audience”

yes I know only statistics doesn't prove anything, that's why I away said " statistics along with news reports and failed attempts to reform the blasphemy law " will explain the things.

Then y are you deliberately trying to construct misleading arguments rather to quote absolute number “500 or so” constructing your arguments on the basis of %.....????

Just to falsely portray exaggerated pictures...distortion of fact.....???

1) small differences in representation can be random, coincidental and found all around the world in different areas and matters but 4% representing 50% offenders, that's very drastic difference ,that alone is abnormal if you don't have strong reasons to explain such big difference it naturally points out to only one possibility, that minorities are being targeted.

My dear this one is a fine example of distortion of facts & figures........4% of minority represent around 8.0 million of Pakistani population out of which if some 500 people have committed a crime or charged for a crime you are labelling Pakistan as intolerant country for minorities..........????

Keeping in mind that 500 is collective figure of 25 years......

“What a progressive and enlighten Indian you are”

2)what supplements point one is that you have different set strict sections exclusively for the protection of Islam only when 295 and 295-A already is there to protect all religions equally.so different set of stricter laws shows there is a discrimination in favour of Islam and other religious people *are naturally *targeted with this laws. *

Dear as wise men say “One see world, as what he is from inside”

My dear I and you both quoted this law.......here at this very same thread.......can you point out any single clause where it is written that only non-Muslim will be charged under this law......????

3) There are numerous incidents reported by media to validate my first point, these news reports explains *that high percentage of minorities accused is because they are targeted not because they commit higher rate of offenses.Pakistan came under international criticism because of this incidents.

Haters gonna hate my dear.......like you.....

I believe you are sensible enough to know who criticize whom and with what agenda.... these criticisms are not made in love of someone but in hate of the other......

Can news report replace evidences or investigations in any legal proceedings...........???

As far as your victim card is concern my dear I have already prove you wrong repeatedly......Pakistani society as whole has never target any minority......

1)There is no big margin of difference in Muslims *representation in *state population *and prisoner representation.biggest difference shown is 22% where as in case of pak minorities the difference is 46%, more the double the figure of Muslim prisoners percentage.

Again selective quotation of figures and deliberately distortion of facts....y are you not doing simple mathematics.......are u that dump or Hypocrite.....40.6-10.6=30% and you are quoting 22% what a selective judgment......I appreciate it......
do you know the exact % of Muslim prisoners in India would request to quote it the as you are so found of quoting %ages.......wait, I should help you in this regards......

Muslims in India: IDENTITY AND SECURITY ISSUES | Muhammad Burhanuddin Qasmi - Academia.edu

Damen per koi daagh na khanjaer per koi chiint
Tum Qataal kare hook e karamaat kare hoo......

2)There is no separate strict draconian *criminal laws which is in place to prosecute Muslims, it's all same for people from every religion. So that's enough to defend my point here. I showed you(within the limited point of blasphemy ) that with different set of laws for blasphemy it's discriminatory. don't force me to post all those false allegations cases,pressure by mob and Islamic parties on govt and police and even the lower judiciary etc here, Google it and see yourself. I brought what is available,

Dear interpretation of events has no weight when I see a different picture of Muslim in India......be it there a law specific against them or not, but selective implementation of your so called secular law is there.......can you tell why clause 295 of Indian penal code was not implemented at some of your leaders at some events of Indian History......????

Dear I would not ask you to restrain of posting some evidences and facts if there is any but my dear I can post hundreds of events and report of mob justice in India........

INDIA Faithful killed, homes and churches burned, thousands flee: pogrom of Indian Christians (OVERVIEW) - Asia News

News in Pictures

INDIA Indian Kashmir: Christians arrested for "promoting enmity" - Asia News

INDIA Missionary forced to leave Kashmir because his schools are "too good" - Asia News

Just search visit this link of Human Rights Watch you will find number of Cases regarding Indian mob justice:

Search | Human Rights Watch

INDIA Missionary forced to leave Kashmir because his schools are "too good" - Asia News

Mathrubhumi - Attackers cut off Newman college prof Joseph's hand

if the conviction rate is same as statistics then my *points are same, different set of stricter laws explains it, if the conviction rate is low then I would appreciate your judiciary(higher courts only) on that but condemn the law makers which made discriminatory law which is prone to misuse and those Mullah mob which misused this law to target minorities and liberal voices within the Muslims.

You would not post these figures as no know that there is not a single execution till to date in this regards......

You many compare how many blasphemy *accused were assassinated by mob in India. you were trying to mislead another country member(me) who is not aware of exact nature of blasphemy law by saying *blasphemy law is not discriminatory but in real it is, that's why I said you are lying, and I explained the other part already.

In India my dear mob can assassinate anyone just because he is not Hindu.....I have posted number of links above those christens were targets due to their religion leaving the blasphemy aside, I am quoting a single incident in which around 2000 Christians were forced converted, though it is a punishable crime under Indian panel code, but then y the law was not implemented............????

what is you say about this.....??

Hindu extremists convert 2,000 Christians in India | Christian News on Christian Today

Oh you innocent Soul....was miss lead by me.....how cruel and unkind of me......

I tried to mislead a person who were exactly aware of clauses and sub clauses of the law but was not quoting the first clause deliberately.....

How cruel of me to mislead a person how is shy to use absolute numbers as it is small figure but use % to exaggerate....

How cruel of me to mislead a person who deliberately miscalculate the numbers when it come to other community......

How cruel of me to mislead a per who want selective implementation of Law according to his wishes.....

How cruel of me to mislead a person who deliberately misquote the laws.....and upon indication said it was mistake.....

How cruel of to mislead a person who close the eye upon human right violations in his country...but malign other country......

* And 1000 cases in 25 years is low when compared to which, how many, *progressive countries ? * Because laws are man made and that's why certain laws are amended or abolished when govt feels that they are being misused or there is high chances of misuse of the entire law or certain clauses *of law, that's what your govt were trying to do but couldn't do it because of the pressure from religious hardliners.example of such law *which was misused and later abolished or amended is POTA And TADA. Another one is *the hate speech law which police used to arrest online critics.so when you see that a law is misused widely you naturally will have to amend the law to make it less prone to misuse BTW what's the punishment for false allegations of blasphemy ? . * Prevention of Terrorism Act, 2002 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorist_and_Disruptive_Activities_(Prevention)_Act India to amend hate speech law after Facebook controversy | The Raw Story

Can you do mathematics correctly this time.....if yes my dear calculate the ration of these 1000 case out of total crime recorded in 25 years......and post in % again as you love to quote %.......as far as you baseless propaganda regarding the misuse of this law is concern Why don’t you prove......rather just repeating same thing again an again....????

Though you have proved wrong again and again

 

[jnd3x0]

well this law is weird and show colors of pathetic mullah mentality, my argument is

fine them severely for this insult (it's unacceptable act agreed as per our values)rather killing them or hanging them as Allah have not given you the right to judge his/her future, he/she might end up converting to islam IF we try to represent ISLAM as A LOVING religion unlike how mullah portrays it kill and just hate and kill BS.