What's new

Chinese Aero Engine information thread

RTR33IWI%20%281%29.jpg

Image: Reuters

China Is Building More Powerful Jet Engines, And Is Selling Tech

China's air force could be about to get a big boost.
by Eugene K. Chow
Key point: China is quickly becoming an elite player in the Jet Age.

Chinese engineering has become so advanced that German jet engines could soon get a major boost from China.
Officials in China have begun talks to sell sophisticated aerospace technology and manufacturing equipment to Germany for the production of high-performance jet engines.

As China moves to rapidly build its commercial and military aviation industry, the nation has made significant engineering breakthroughs, most notably in turbine blades, which convert the heat from fuel combustion into thrust. Turbine blades are one of the most critical components of an airplane, determining a jet engine’s safety, power and endurance.

Engineers in China have developed new processes that can make lighter and stronger blades using a hollow structure as well as single-crystal alloys that can withstand high temperatures and a special coating to facilitate cooling. These advances mean Chinese-made turbine blades are able to withstand temperatures several hundred degrees Celsius higher than the melting point of metallic alloys.
These advances are at the center of a possible sale to Germany along with manufacturing equipment that uses lasers to drill ultra-fine holes in turbine blades to keep blades cool by increasing air flow.

“Our machine has outperformed [Germany’s] on some benchmarks,” an anonymous source involved in the negotiations told the South China Morning Post. “The Germans have seen and grown interested in our technology.”

Discussions for the sale are still in the early stages, but even the possibility of an agreement with Germany, which created the world’s first production-ready jet engine and has long been revered for its design and manufacturing prowess, is a major victory for China as it seeks to shift its reputation away from cheaply made knockoffs to high-end innovation.

Aerospace is one of the key sectors of the “Made In China 2025” initiative, which calls for massive government investment to create thriving self-sufficient domestic industries. But long before the initiative was announced, China has been hard at work developing domestically-produced military aircraft.

In 2011, China stunned the world with the J-20, the nation’s first stealth fighter meant to rival America’s F-22 Raptor. With the J-20, China became only the second nation after the United States with a tactical stealth jet in service.

Just three years later, China unveiled the J-31 stealth multirole fighter jet, which looks remarkably like the American-made F-35 Joint Strike Fighter. Analysts believe the Chinese built the J-31 using stolen F-35 blueprints.

China’s fifth-generation fighters currently rely on Russian engines, but recent breakthroughs have given the nation the ability to manufacture their own. In September, images revealed China had built a stealth engine for the J-20 equipped with serrated afterburner nozzles and interior flaps to help minimize its radar signature.

As China turns its attention to commercial airliners, it is only a matter of time before it begins to produce jet engines for commercial use.

In China’s rapid rise, it has previously turned to German aerospace companies to gain intellectual property and industrial know-how. In 2013, China acquired Germany’s Thielert Aircraft Engines after it filed for bankruptcy. The agreement included Thielert’s technology as well as their manufacturing facilities and equipment.

More recently, China has set its sights on purchasing Cotesa, an innovative German aerospace manufacturer that supplies parts for Airbus and Boeing. But the deal is currently on hold pending a review by the German government under new rules that grant the state more authority to block foreign takeovers.

The rules were passed in the midst of growing concerns of Chinese companies acquiring German and other EU companies operating in sensitive industries like aerospace, robotics and computer chips.

China’s plan to supply Germany with jet engine turbine blade technology is likely to face similar hurdles as Germany partners with Pratt & Whitney, General Electric and other American engine manufacturers. Even if German authorities approve the deal, the sale could still be blocked by the U.S. government which considers jet engine manufacturers as strategic domestic companies.

Regardless of whether this deal succeeds or not, it is apparent that China is quickly becoming an elite player in the Jet Age.

Eugene K. Chow writes on foreign policy and military affairs. His work has been published in Foreign Policy, The Week and The Diplomat. This first appeared in January 2018.
Seems they still have a long way to go. By now they should have been able to provide reliable fighter jet engines with 12000 hours life.
 
Seems they still have a long way to go. By now they should have been able to provide reliable fighter jet engines with 12000 hours life.
Jet engine technology is a very complex sector. Only few countries like U.S, U.K, France, Russia(might add Germany) have so far shown they can produce reliable mass produced jet engines for various purposes and that are used worldwide. China is a new comer in the block, but i think they have been doing a fairly good job and they have invested hundreds of billions of dollars in this sector, they are almost there i think. They just need more time i suppose. It's not a day job, demands patience and constant long term investment/commitment.
 
Jet engine technology is a very complex sector. Only few countries like U.S, U.K, France, Russia(might add Germany) have so far shown they can produce reliable mass produced jet engines for various purposes and that are used worldwide. China is a new comer in the block, but i think they have been doing a fairly good job and they have invested hundreds of billions of dollars in this sector, they are almost there i think. They just need more time i suppose. It's not a day job, demands patience and constant long term investment/commitment.

Germany cannot be on that list as it cannot produce all the components of an engine.

Japan is better than Germany as it can produce all components of an engine. It has already built it's own engines for it's P1 maritime patrol aircraft and has just completed a prototype engine in 2018 - it will have F-22 class engine performance for it's F-3 air-dominance stealth fighter.
 
Germany cannot be on that list as it cannot produce all the components of an engine.

Japan is better than Germany as it can produce all components of an engine. It has already built it's own engines for it's P1 maritime patrol aircraft and has just completed a prototype engine in 2018 - it will have F-22 class engine performance for it's F-3 air-dominance stealth fighter.
P1's engine is junk. P1's adequancy is only 10%, and most of it due to its engine.
 
Tuesday, December 31, 2019
Chinese Fighter Turbine Engines: Production Outlook through 2026

A recent Alert5 article "China still struggling to develop new military turbofan engines" used production forecasts from the Hebei Cisri Dekai Technology Co. Ltd. to suggest that China was having trouble developing engines. However, the assumptions Alert5 used as to which aircraft would use which engine were not entirely correct, as evidenced by recent pics of J-20 production aircraft fitted with WS-10C instead of projected WS-15. Particularly in terms of fighter aircraft, we can see now that indigenous engine production is more than capable of supporting a tremendous number of new airframes in the coming years.

CDF Forum Member "Pierrotlefeu" explains how:

WS-10C is just a placeholder for J-20 like Al-31F was for J-10. It allows the first batch of J-20s to be operationalized and put into service, which is important to get feedback for improvement and familiarize the fighter corps. The WS-15 may not appear in service until after 2026, which is actually FASTER than how WS-10 was for the J-10 (entered service 2008, indigenous engine 2019, 11 years vs potentially 8).

What is more interesting is that production of WS-10 is slated to reach 2740 engines by 2026. Assuming worst case scenario of 1/3 for spares and re-engine of older planes, that leaves around 1800 engines for new planes. Assume China will maintain the current production rate of 24 annually for J-20, which I think will be the plan until WS-15 becomes available, just like how J-10 production was kept low until J-10C became available, then that would be 7 x 24 x 2 = 336 engines for J-20, leaving 1464 engines. Assume production of Flankers and J-10s stay at the same 1:1 rate we've been seeing, then we'll have an additional 1464 : 3 ~ 488 each of Flankers and J-10s. I'm counting J-11s, 15s, 16s, and 17s as just "Flankers" here, and 2 carriers will need 2 x 48 x 2 (one regiment deployed, one spare) = 192 J-15s and 17s.

That's potentially 168 new J-20s, 488 J-10s, and 488 homemade Flankers (including naval ones). That's 1144 new fighters from the availability of a single engine type, not bad at all.

Of course, many will replace J-7s and J-8s still in inventory as well as older Flankers and J-10s, so net growth won't be too extreme for now.





Like WS-10C on J-20 instead of WS-15, it would be reasonable to expect the WS-10 series turbines to also power any early production FC-31 navalized Gen 5 fighters instead of WS-19. This would ameliorate the low-rate initial production of WS-19 and counterindicate "struggling" in that program as well.







Posted by SteveM at 5:59 PM No comments: Links to this post
Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest

Monday, December 30, 2019
China Finally Closes the Engine Gap: 100% Domestic Jet Fighter Engines

A series of recent images has confirmed that China is no longer reliant on Russian turbines to power it's burgeoning fleet of combat aircraft. New-build production J-10C and J-20 aircraft are leaving the Chengdu factory with indigenous WS-10 "Taihang"engines installed. Previously these aircraft were delivered with variants of the Russian-produced Salyut AL-31 engine.

In the case of the J-20 pictured below, the engine is the WS-10C variant, a non-thrust vectoring model. This came as a surprise to some observers who expected a TVC-capable WS-10 to be installed on the aircraft, but it may be that full TVC integration with the aircraft flight controls just isn't ready yet. Alternately, the long postulated "stealth interceptor" aka "AWACS killer" role of the J-20 may not need TVC.









Posted by SteveM at 5:39 AM 2 comments: Links to this post
Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
 
P1's engine is junk. P1's adequancy is only 10%, and most of it due to its engine.

No P1's engine is not junk, just not a high thrust turbofan and hence why the plane needs 4 engines.
It has given Japan the experience to developing 5th gen engine for their F-3 fighter.
 
No P1's engine is not junk, just not a high thrust turbofan and hence why the plane needs 4 engines.
It has given Japan the experience to developing 5th gen engine for their F-3 fighter.
Firstly, as I said, majority due to its faulty engine, P1 has an adequancy ratio of 10%,while generally for a patrol plane it should be larger than 80%
Secondly, as a high by-pass engine, P1 used F-7 engine has nothing to do with a F3 used XF-9, which is a low by-pass afterburn fighter used engine. eg, in Soviet era, JSC Kuznetsov, Aviadvigatel and motor sich produced low by-pass engine, while Klimov and NPO Saturn produced low by-pass afterburn engine. These two types of engines are quite different on specific technology.
 
Germany cannot be on that list as it cannot produce all the components of an engine.

Japan is better than Germany as it can produce all components of an engine. It has already built it's own engines for it's P1 maritime patrol aircraft and has just completed a prototype engine in 2018 - it will have F-22 class engine performance for it's F-3 air-dominance stealth fighter.
Im sorry but what is to suggest in all of Japan's engine making history that it has the capability to develop a F-119 class engine?
 
Tuesday, December 31, 2019
Chinese Fighter Turbine Engines: Production Outlook through 2026

A recent Alert5 article "China still struggling to develop new military turbofan engines" used production forecasts from the Hebei Cisri Dekai Technology Co. Ltd. to suggest that China was having trouble developing engines. However, the assumptions Alert5 used as to which aircraft would use which engine were not entirely correct, as evidenced by recent pics of J-20 production aircraft fitted with WS-10C instead of projected WS-15. Particularly in terms of fighter aircraft, we can see now that indigenous engine production is more than capable of supporting a tremendous number of new airframes in the coming years.

CDF Forum Member "Pierrotlefeu" explains how:

WS-10C is just a placeholder for J-20 like Al-31F was for J-10. It allows the first batch of J-20s to be operationalized and put into service, which is important to get feedback for improvement and familiarize the fighter corps. The WS-15 may not appear in service until after 2026, which is actually FASTER than how WS-10 was for the J-10 (entered service 2008, indigenous engine 2019, 11 years vs potentially 8).

What is more interesting is that production of WS-10 is slated to reach 2740 engines by 2026. Assuming worst case scenario of 1/3 for spares and re-engine of older planes, that leaves around 1800 engines for new planes. Assume China will maintain the current production rate of 24 annually for J-20, which I think will be the plan until WS-15 becomes available, just like how J-10 production was kept low until J-10C became available, then that would be 7 x 24 x 2 = 336 engines for J-20, leaving 1464 engines. Assume production of Flankers and J-10s stay at the same 1:1 rate we've been seeing, then we'll have an additional 1464 : 3 ~ 488 each of Flankers and J-10s. I'm counting J-11s, 15s, 16s, and 17s as just "Flankers" here, and 2 carriers will need 2 x 48 x 2 (one regiment deployed, one spare) = 192 J-15s and 17s.

That's potentially 168 new J-20s, 488 J-10s, and 488 homemade Flankers (including naval ones). That's 1144 new fighters from the availability of a single engine type, not bad at all.

Of course, many will replace J-7s and J-8s still in inventory as well as older Flankers and J-10s, so net growth won't be too extreme for now.





Like WS-10C on J-20 instead of WS-15, it would be reasonable to expect the WS-10 series turbines to also power any early production FC-31 navalized Gen 5 fighters instead of WS-19. This would ameliorate the low-rate initial production of WS-19 and counterindicate "struggling" in that program as well.







Posted by SteveM at 5:59 PM No comments: Links to this post
Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest

Monday, December 30, 2019
China Finally Closes the Engine Gap: 100% Domestic Jet Fighter Engines

A series of recent images has confirmed that China is no longer reliant on Russian turbines to power it's burgeoning fleet of combat aircraft. New-build production J-10C and J-20 aircraft are leaving the Chengdu factory with indigenous WS-10 "Taihang"engines installed. Previously these aircraft were delivered with variants of the Russian-produced Salyut AL-31 engine.

In the case of the J-20 pictured below, the engine is the WS-10C variant, a non-thrust vectoring model. This came as a surprise to some observers who expected a TVC-capable WS-10 to be installed on the aircraft, but it may be that full TVC integration with the aircraft flight controls just isn't ready yet. Alternately, the long postulated "stealth interceptor" aka "AWACS killer" role of the J-20 may not need TVC.









Posted by SteveM at 5:39 AM 2 comments: Links to this post
Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest

Excellent article but incorrect to suggest that WS-10B will be put in J-35 fighter - it is likely to be the WS-19 in development.
 

Pakistan Defence Latest Posts

Back
Top Bottom