China's Uighurs fight for rights

[gpit]

Having above said, let me state:

1) You can turn your blind eyes to UN HDI, but we truth-seeking people won’t. You can call for nothing to believe in China because of CPC. We believe it mostly through the Chinese people with concrete materials.

2) Do you then believe Indian UN HDI is lowered, regardless of what you called "criticizing" or "introspective" systems? Perhaps you would say it is because GOI is much too honesty!

3) Any measurements have their limits. Unless you can put forward a better one, we all deem current one with the highest authentication and the most trustworthy. Why don’t you show us your better over-all measurements to counter UN HDI?

4) USSR wise, their economic structure was deadly flawed. Sometimes after Stalin was gone, political oppression reduced greatly. It is poor economy that caused great discontent among the people. Aggravated with Western undermining, stupid Russian leaders committed political suicide. Hey, one has to admit that Chinese leaders are perhaps wiser.

5) Political freedom is very important, especially AFTER people have reached certain degree of material freedom. Why after? You can ask a starving street beggar in China or India: "would you rather have the right to vote once (or N times) a year, or have a full stomach year-round?" In addition, no one can deny that China is freer now than before, but is still much less free than India, though China is perhaps economically more developed for the moment.

6) We do not rule out some people "give me liberty or give me death" type of propaganda, which is useful sometimes. However, under NORMAL situation, without your life, how can you carry out your political tasks or other tasks??

You can call any those who voices differently from you and says positive signs of China as "great communists" - exactly as Hitler was doing or Stalinist was conducting in an attempt to create a pure-land. But most of us won't be that naive and immature. After all, if “communists” do good stuffs to the people, why not?

In conclusion, being practical is important.

 

[Sino-PakFriendship]

我問過美國人 : 你們堅持中國入侵西藏，為何你們不派兵解放西藏?
I have asked American about Tibet issue - If You American insist that China invaded Tibet, why USA doesn't send troop to librate Tibet?

美國人答 : 因為西藏沒有石油。
American answer : Because Tibet has no petroleum.



我問過塔利班支持者 : 你們塔利班在阿富汗搞伊斯蘭原教旨主義，為何你們不派遊擊隊解救新疆伊斯蘭兄弟?
I have asked Taliban supporters about Xinjiang (Chinese Turkistan or East Turkistan) issue - You Taliban implements Islamic Fundamentalism in Afghanistan, why you doesn't send guerrilla to save Chinese Turkistan Islam brothers?

塔利班支持者答 : 這樣做的話，塔利班會冚家剷(全軍覆&#27794。
Taliban supporters' answer : Taliban will suffer a total loss if doing this.



漢族沒有滅絕藏族和維吾爾族的意圖。
Han Chinese has no intention to extinguish the Tibetan and Uyghur.

&#27665;&#36939;&#30064;&#35211;&#20154;&#22763;&#22235;&#21477;&#35441; : &#20013;&#22283;&#27794;&#27665;&#20027;&#65292;&#29544;&#31435;&#19981;&#21487;&#33021;&#65292;&#20013;&#22283;&#26377;&#27665;&#20027;&#65292;&#29544;&#31435;&#19981;&#38656;&#35201;&#12290; <~ &#36889;&#21477;&#35441;&#20107;&#23526;&#19981;&#26159;&#23565;&#21488;&#28771;&#35498;&#65292;&#32780;&#26159;&#23565;&#32173;&#21566;&#29246;&#26063;&#12289;&#34255;&#26063;&#35498;&#30340;&#12290;
Chinese Democracy activists have said, 'Independence is impossible if China has no democracy, Independence is no need if China has democracy.' <~ The statements above are not for Taiwan issue, but for Tibet and Chinese Turkistan issues.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

&#25105;&#21839;&#36942;&#32654;&#22283;&#20154; : &#20320;&#20497;&#22533;&#25345;&#20013;&#22283;&#20837;&#20405;&#35199;&#34255;&#65292;&#28858;&#20309;&#20320;&#20497;&#19981;&#27966;&#20853;&#35299;&#25918;&#35199;&#34255;?
I have asked American about Tibet issue - If You American insist that China invaded Tibet, why USA doesn't send troop to librate Tibet?

&#32654;&#22283;&#20154;&#31572; : &#22240;&#28858;&#35199;&#34255;&#27794;&#26377;&#30707;&#27833;&#12290;
American answer : Because Tibet has no petroleum.



&#25105;&#21839;&#36942;&#22612;&#21033;&#29677;&#25903;&#25345;&#32773; : &#20320;&#20497;&#22612;&#21033;&#29677;&#22312;&#38463;&#23500;&#27735;&#25630;&#20234;&#26031;&#34349;&#21407;&#25945;&#26088;&#20027;&#32681;&#65292;&#28858;&#20309;&#20320;&#20497;&#19981;&#27966;&#36938;&#25802;&#38538;&#35299;&#25937;&#26032;&#30086;&#20234;&#26031;&#34349;&#20804;&#24351;?
I have asked Taliban supporters about Xinjiang (Chinese Turkistan or East Turkistan) issue - You Taliban implements Islamic Fundamentalism in Afghanistan, why you doesn't send guerrilla to save Chinese Turkistan Islam brothers?

&#22612;&#21033;&#29677;&#25903;&#25345;&#32773;&#31572; : &#36889;&#27171;&#20570;&#30340;&#35441;&#65292;&#22612;&#21033;&#29677;&#26371;&#20890;&#23478;&#21111;(&#20840;&#36557;&#35206;&#27794&#12290;
Taliban supporters' answer : Taliban will suffer a total loss if doing this.



&#28450;&#26063;&#27794;&#26377;&#28357;&#32085;&#34255;&#26063;&#21644;&#32173;&#21566;&#29246;&#26063;&#30340;&#24847;&#22294;&#12290;
Han Chinese has no intention to extinguish the Tibetan and Uyghur.

&#27665;&#36939;&#30064;&#35211;&#20154;&#22763;&#22235;&#21477;&#35441; : &#20013;&#22283;&#27794;&#27665;&#20027;&#65292;&#29544;&#31435;&#19981;&#21487;&#33021;&#65292;&#20013;&#22283;&#26377;&#27665;&#20027;&#65292;&#29544;&#31435;&#19981;&#38656;&#35201;&#12290; <~ &#36889;&#21477;&#35441;&#20107;&#23526;&#19981;&#26159;&#23565;&#21488;&#28771;&#35498;&#65292;&#32780;&#26159;&#23565;&#32173;&#21566;&#29246;&#26063;&#12289;&#34255;&#26063;&#35498;&#30340;&#12290;
Chinese Democracy activists have said, 'Independence is impossible if China has no democracy, Independence is no need if China has democracy.' <~ The statements above are not for Taiwan issue, but for Tibet and Chinese Turkistan issues.

I presume the boxes that I see on my computer of your post, are those in Chinese letters.

America cannot invade Tibet since India would not allow the same through Indian territory. It would unncessarily bring war on India.

Tibet is rich in minerals since it is the Tibetan belief that one should not dig up Mother Earth. There is great potential and wherever there is potential to improve the US economy, they will be interested and it need not be petroleum.

As far as Xinjiang and Taliban are concerned, the Islamic jihadis are really not afraid of death. From Mujahideens to Shaheed is what is the theory. This is what scares the world. Therefore, one wonders if indeed they would be afraid to die! As it is, they are dying by the scores in Pakistan and elsewhere.

 

[sahaliyan]

As far as Xinjiang and Taliban are concerned, the Islamic jihadis are really not afraid of death. From Mujahideens to Shaheed is what is the theory. This is what scares the world. Therefore, one wonders if indeed they would be afraid to die! As it is, they are dying by the scores in Pakistan and elsewhere.

When General Yang Zengxin ruled Xinjiang,no jihad in Xinjiang,because he was friendly to Uyghurs.I think if treat musilims friendly,then jihad can't exist anymore.

Uyghurs are ordinary people,and I think we have 25 million musilims are benifit for us,because Uyghurs and other musilim people have highest birth rate in China.China's birth rate is so low,I wonder we will become Japan,lack of young people.These musilims are hope of China,they can save us from Ageing

 

[Sino-PakFriendship]

I presume the boxes that I see on my computer of your post, are those in Chinese letters.

America cannot invade Tibet since India would not allow the same through Indian territory. It would unncessarily bring war on India.

Tibet is rich in minerals since it is the Tibetan belief that one should not dig up Mother Earth. There is great potential and wherever there is potential to improve the US economy, they will be interested and it need not be petroleum.

As far as Xinjiang and Taliban are concerned, the Islamic jihadis are really not afraid of death. From Mujahideens to Shaheed is what is the theory. This is what scares the world. Therefore, one wonders if indeed they would be afraid to die! As it is, they are dying by the scores in Pakistan and elsewhere.

CCP and PLA are not worried about Taliban.

For guerrilla war, only Vietnam can win China in the World, provided that both have the same amount of soliders.

Obviously, Vietnam must lose to China in guerrilla war due to quantity of guerrilla members.

We China needs to keep friendship with Pakistan to stabilize our Western frontier.

 

[sahaliyan]

CCP and PLA are not worried about Taliban.

For guerrilla war, only Vietnam can win China in the World, provided that both have the same amount of soliders.

Obviously, Vietnam must lose to China in guerrilla war due to quantity of guerrilla members.

We China needs to keep friendship with Pakistan to stabilize our Western frontier.

Sino,21st century don't need guerrilla war,terrorists can't know this fact,they will lose no doubt
And Sino,I think India have largest young people,they can provide more sodiers.They have stronger manpower than China

 

[sahaliyan]

Birth rate in China is underestimated!

Some people are illegally over-birth without registration.


Indian population will not have overcome Chinese one by 2100.

Sino,I have been to many villages,normal family only have two kids,some only have one kid.In city,birth rate is lower
This is fact,have you ever heard many villages' schools closed,because kids number is so low.

 

[Logic note]

Having above said, let me state:

1) You can turn your blind eyes to UN HDI, but we truth-seeking people won&#8217;t. You can call for nothing to believe in China because of CPC. We believe it mostly through the Chinese people with concrete materials.

2) Do you then believe Indian UN HDI is lowered, regardless of what you called "criticizing" or "introspective" systems? Perhaps you would say it is because GOI is much too honesty!

3) Any measurements have their limits. Unless you can put forward a better one, we all deem current one with the highest authentication and the most trustworthy. Why don&#8217;t you show us your better over-all measurements to counter UN HDI?.

Yes My dear We are truth Seeking ppl and you shall use your intellect to find truth from the heap of Data .
Your Lets assume that UN HDI is the Correct parameters of a Nations development and a good judgment of any political system then
A -) USA (12) is lower then , Iceland, Norway, Australia, Canada, Ireland, Sweden, Switzerland, Japan, Netherlands, France and Finland.
B) Islamic Sharia Based Saudi Arabia (61) is better then your communist China

So much for UN HDI - Judging just of three parameters

And the most important factor &#8211; the data for HDI is provided by China itself and we all know how honest and open China is .
Read this - Press Freedom In China

USSR wise, their economic structure was deadly flawed. Sometimes after Stalin was gone, political oppression reduced greatly. It is poor economy that caused great discontent among the people. Aggravated with Western undermining, stupid Russian leaders committed political suicide. Hey, one has to admit that Chinese leaders are perhaps wiser.

No ppl like you who accept and justifies brutal communist proves them wiser by behaving as a fool .

Political freedom is very important, especially AFTER people have reached certain degree of material freedom. Why after? You can ask a starving street beggar in China or India: "would you rather have the right to vote once (or N times) a year, or have a full stomach year-round?" In addition, no one can deny that China is freer now than before, but is still much less free than India, though China is perhaps economically more developed for the moment.

Let me see you argument -

both India and China are progressing
GDP growth percentage of India 9 &#37;
GDP growth percentage of China - 11 %

So for eg that means you will be richer faster then me I will b little late in getting rich
But you will be rich by paying the price of your freedom and dignity .
I will prefer delay rather then my self respect and dignity

We do not rule out some people "give me liberty or give me death" type of propaganda, which is useful sometimes. However, under NORMAL situation, without your life, how can you carry out your political tasks or other tasks??

Yes that&#8217;s the difference of expectation from this life &#8211;
Existence of Humanity is a balance between Mind and matter both .For us Normal means Freedom and self respect first .

You can call any those who voices differently from you and says positive signs of China as "great communists" - exactly as Hitler was doing or Stalinist was conducting in an attempt to create a pure-land. But most of us won't be that naive and immature. After all, if &#8220;communists&#8221; do good stuffs to the people, why not?

In conclusion, being practical is important.

It all depends on how you see practicality - For us Practicality is life with my freedom intact . I have right to choose and that&#8217;s why we have communist ruling in two Indian states, within our democratic system and thats because ppl chose them While you don&#8217;t have any option in China .

 

[Logic note]

Country indices like the HDI must be read with caution

Statistics South Africa - News

Country indices like the HDI must be read with caution

By Pali Lehohla

Comparing countries often leads to controversy, especially when the statistical methodologies used to measure each country are themselves the object of debate. Such is the case in respect of the UN's Human Development Report.

One of the better-known tools for cross-national measurement is the UN's human development index (HDI), a composite made up of a life expectancy index, an educational index (combining adult literacy rates with primary, secondary and tertiary enrolment), and a gross domestic product index (using per capita purchasing power in US dollars).

While the index represents an advance over purely economic comparisons, it is still unable to capture the complexity of national development processes and compare these across countries.

To some extent, this is because it is based on a small number of indicators. By comparison, the monitoring of the millennium development goals is based on a far wider range of statistical indicators and data sources.

Questions have been raised about the sources, reliability and consistency of some of the data used in computing the HDI. In this regard, the statistician-general tabled misgivings at the UN Statistics Commission in March in response to the Human Development Report released in 2004.

Views on the usefulness of the index differ markedly. Amartya Sen, a Nobel laureate in economics, treats the HDI as a major source of information enabling understanding of the social and economic world.

On the other hand, David Henderson, the former head of the economics and statistics department of the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development, has argued that the index offers a false perspective on world affairs.

In 2000 the UN Statistics Commission convened to consider a critique of the HDI by Ian Castles, a former Australian commonwealth statistician.

His criticism centred on how international comparisons of economic statistics could be produced when each country estimated economic performance using its own currency.

Several of his criticisms were found to be justified, especially in respect of material errors in statistical accuracy, and the choice of data used to compile the HDI.

A more fundamental critique has been developed by Jacob Ryten, a former deputy head of Statistics Canada, who is advising Statistics SA on economic measurement.

He argues that an index that purports to measure the sum total of human endeavour cannot aptly be reflected in a single index, and urges statisticians not to use single numbers to articulate complex social changes.

He adds: "If the choice is to mislead with a single figure or to explain awkwardly with six, the latter should be professionally if not emotionally preferable."

Such questions are pertinent in evaluating the latest HDI report, which concludes that conditions of life in South Africa have deteriorated.

Data used to calculate South Africa's ranking in the 2005 HDI have been drawn from mostly unofficial sources, extracted from pre-2003 statistics.

Data have also been recycled: if information is not available for the year in question, it is derived from other periods without the extrapolation methods being made explicit.

For example, when the report was released, the official mid-year population estimates were already available. Without explanation, the report ignored the mid-year estimates of an infant mortality rate of 43 per 100 000 people, quoting instead a rate of 53 per 100 000.

Equally, South Africa's maternal mortality ratio was estimated at 55 per 100 000 in 1997, rising to 78 in 2001, and declining to 73 in 2002. Yet the report asserts that South Africa's maternal mortality ratio is 230 per 100 000 people.

This does not imply that the HDI should be ignored or rejected. It is part of the battery of tools for monitoring development. There is, at present, no suitable alternative for measuring human endeavour.

However, precisely because of the lack of alternatives, it is important to be exceedingly cautious when applying this indicator.

The statistics used for cross-national comparison, not just in the computation of the HDI but also in analysis undertaken by international agencies, are sometimes drawn from such diverse sources that they should not be used in the same analysis.

For example, one agency recently drew mortality and fertility rates from one source, but used population estimates from another data source. But population estimates have to be based on projected mortality and fertility rates, and these cannot be separated.

Analysis and comparison cannot simply choose those statistics that support an argument or pre-determined assessment. In today's global information order, statistics are often accepted as providing an almost definitive profile of a country.

When these quantitative facts are incorrect, they mislead. When they are erratic, they misinform. When such mistakes are not corrected, they create doubt and mistrust. That is why statisticians are obliged to engage with statistical practices that might mislead rather than inform

 

[gpit]

Let me give a quick answer:

about UN HDI: my previous catch-all statement: "Any measurements have their limits. Unless you can put forward a better one, we all deem current one with the highest authentication and the most trustworthy. Why don&#8217;t you show us your better over-all measurements to counter UN HDI?"

About Saudi: Yes, over-all they are economically developed better, and are less corruptive than China or India. It is a fact which exists now irrespective of who likes it or hates it.

About Communism and democracy: Except a few, nobody would be so naive as to believe communists and democracies are the same, or yield same results, across different countries.

I think this debate has been dragged too far away from the original topic. I think it is probably the time to windup now, by sharing a piece of news for all of us to think (or criticizing):

"A severe power crisis has led to angry protests across the state. In Kahalgaon, two persons, including a student, were killed on Friday when police opened fire on the protestors. One more person, Mohammad Khairu, was killed and two persons, including an eight-year-old boy, received serious injuries in Saturday&#8217;s firing. " Latest News, India News, Latest India News, Breaking News From India &#8211; The Indian Express

Too me, in this case, material richness can probably prevent the discontent of the people, preserve the dignity of the people, let the freedom to live persist, not by mere voting or writing a paper.

 

[Logic note]

Let me give a quick answer:

about UN HDI: my previous catch-all statement: "Any measurements have their limits. Unless you can put forward a better one, we all deem current one with the highest authentication and the most trustworthy. Why don&#8217;t you show us your better over-all measurements to counter UN HDI?".

And as I said , its doesnt have limitations but
it is Limitation
Suppose if Someone Judges the Physical vanity within three Parameters
Complexion ,Height ,Large eyes . you will find only Caucasians in that list .
Right ! Hope you get the point .

About Saudi: Yes, over-all they are economically developed better, and are less corruptive than China or India. It is a fact which exists now irrespective of who likes it or hates it.

Dear Gpit , thats where u went wrong . Saudi economy is not a result of its Political system . secondly , would you like a society like that ? where there is no Art , no science No freedom .
Materialism is secondry its is just a means for life and not the end for life .

About Communism and democracy: Except a few, nobody would be so naive as to believe communists and democracies are the same, or yield same results, across different countries.

Yes my dear Political system is the result of idelogical and intellectual maturity of a society .Knoweldge doesnt always leads to wisdom .some ppl use knoweldge to kill others while few use it to help others .

think this debate has been dragged too far away from the original topic. I think it is probably the time to windup now, by sharing a piece of news for all of us to think (or criticizing):

"A severe power crisis has led to angry protests across the state. In Kahalgaon, two persons, including a student, were killed on Friday when police opened fire on the protestors. One more person, Mohammad Khairu, was killed and two persons, including an eight-year-old boy, received serious injuries in Saturday&#8217;s firing. " Latest News, India News, Latest India News, Breaking News From India &#8211; The Indian Express

Too me, in this case, material richness can probably prevent the discontent of the people, preserve the dignity of the people, let the freedom to live persist, not by mere voting or writing a paper.

this is a classical case of Communist blindness .you didnt see the main strength of democracy - right to protest and demand and an independent media to report . yes sometimes it leads to riots and violence - nothing is perfect .discontentness is an inherent nature of human existence . you mean to say that all the ppl are happy in China or Saudi and getting there respect ful rights ? No but they are not able to protest and no media to raise there plight .

Poverty is not a sin - Poor man can live with self respect and dignity .
Havent you heard of Buddhist monks or Brahmans in ancient or medivial India .

 

[Sino-PakFriendship]

Country indices like the HDI must be read with caution

Statistics South Africa - News

VOA is American Minion Media, we Chinese don't need to trust it more!

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

I like VOA because when I was child there was a lady who started the show by saying - If you see someone without a smile, give him one of yours!

It made my day!

 

[Proud to be Pakistani]

I like VOA because when I was child there was a lady who started the show by saying - If you see someone without a smile, give him one of yours!

It made my day!

What!

You are hardly the one to share a smile with others rather to give one of your's.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Indeed, it is difficult to smile at a radical person since he is so radical in his mind that he fails to see a smile!

If one is blind with hate, none can help him. Not even God to see the beauty and happiness that behold the scene around him!

I assure you that many a Pakistanis on this forum to see the smile!

Everyone is not like you. You are unique and a joy to all!

I assure you this also, without your very "interesting" views, this forum would have been a serious bore!

One requires breaks from seriousness that serious posters generate!

You provide that.