China's Uighurs fight for rights

[gpit]

...

this is a classical case of Communist blindness .you didnt see the main strength of democracy - right to protest and demand and an independent media to report . yes sometimes it leads to riots and violence - nothing is perfect .discontentness is an inherent nature of human existence . you mean to say that all the ppl are happy in China or Saudi and getting there respect ful rights ? No but they are not able to protest and no media to raise there plight .

Show your sick mentality of democracy (I won’t call somebody democratic zombie to degrade myself): denial of iron facts.

Dare you still say Chinese have no rights to protest after you viewed TAM clips? Or dare you say Indians have right to protest but not being killed after you read the article?

Have you ever logged into Chinese web sites to see what the people are voicing? Otherwise, do not attempt to show off your pitiful ignorance.

Your inhuman nature manifests itself fully when you imply that the brutal kill of your innocent Indian brothers means them enjoying the “strength” of full political rights! Maybe their very death is your definition of “getting respectful rights”! Perhaps you would image that they are happily exercising rights right now while RIP!

How hypocrite you are when claiming “nothing is perfect” but want Saudi and China to be perfect! You’d better go home to figure out a smarter way to wield double-standard next time: perhaps to leave some more spaces between the two standards so a reader won’t be stricken by the sharp contrast when the two are laid side by side so closely.

Don’t lie to the public that I said “all the ppl are happy in China”. We are all literate (I expect). You can nonetheless be assured that, in general, people in China are happier than people in India!

What you don’t like does not necessarily means other people don’t like, and vise versa. So don’t force your likeness to Saudi people. We’ve all seen that ugly face when democracy is imposed on Iraq. (Perhaps there indeed are some handful people who want their country to be Uncle Sam in South Asia, who knows!)

[/QUOTE]
Poverty is not a sin - Poor man can live with self respect and dignity .
Havent you heard of Buddhist monks or Brahmans in ancient or medivial India .[/QUOTE]

Involuntary poverty is a sin: more a sin of the government! Those poor people never have full dignity and full freedom! Their only freedom is to suffer, to be poor, to be illiterate, to be manipulated, to be undignified, and to be humiliated...

Perhaps you should first spread what you believe to those protesting in your land of Bharat to be happy, or to be poor (or no electricity) and happy. I won’t mind at all if you make them all monks.

BTW, in case you want to be indulged in your religious preaching, it is your freedom and please open a thread for that in a different topic – just be respectful to other readers.

 

[kvLin]

KvLin,

It is interesting to read about Xianjiang. It has some historical connections with Pakistan along the Silk Road. I don't know much about Uiyghur history in the region, but here's a quick summary of what I read. The Tocharians were the original rulers of Xianjiang, when Han migrants began arriving in 200 AD. The Han and the Tocharians allied together against the Xiongnu, but were eventually defeated by the Xiongnu, when the Tocharians fled along the Silk Route and into what I believe to be Afghanistan/Pakistan (Torkham is probably derived from here). The Xiongnu then ruled till the Uiyghurs defeated them.

That is my understanding of the history of Xianjiang. So my conclusions are that if Xianjiang belonged to anyone it would have been these Tocharians (though i'm not suggesting Xianjiang should be given away). The Han were in all likeliness the second people into Xianjiang, and the Uiyghurs were perhaps the fourth group of people. So, I think you are correct in saying the Uiyghurs don't really have a case for claiming they were there before the Han (though rightfully Xianjiang should have been Tocharian land - however they are now exitinct from that area).

I was interested to read that Tocharians and Han were allies against the Xiongnu. It has some implications. If the Uighurs were "Dinglingers" from Eastern Siberia then it might make them related to the Xiongnu, in which case both the Tocharians and the Han were there earlier than the Uighurs. Do you know if Xiongnu and Uiyghurs have the same Dingling origins?

Hi Roadrunner,

Thanks very much for sharing your understanding on ancient Xinjiang, and my apologize for a reply delayed by fussy jobs since the end of last year.

Dingling was a byname given by Han chinese to nomadic tribes who primitively set their residency west of Lake Baikal and began to expand westward in the 3rd century.

Ding-ling (丁 &#38646 is actually a combination of two words in chinese: Ding(&#19969 means individuals and Ling(&#38646 for fragmentary or a scattered status of appearance in an area.

The Dingling tribes comprised Chile,Tiele,Dili,etc...and were also called Gaoche(高车:high cart) due to their nomadic liftstyle on tall carriages. along with Xiongnu the subjugator northward to Lake Baikal who finally became a strong neigbor of China in the north, they were called Di(&#29380 or Baidi (北狄: northern barbarians) by the han chinese.

a branch of Tiele has prvoen to be the ancestor of Huihu (or huihe, predecessor of the current vighor),Huihu was one of the nine-clan Tiele.

Xiongnu also cosisted of nomadic people who generally originated in present Mongolia, and through annual sustained conquers they formed a vast steppe empire covering all Dingling area and part of present China,where Modu Shanyu established the first nomadic regime of Xiongnu state in 209BC, and then started the complicated relations with the Han chinese,which featured by restless pillages and harrassment by the Xiongnus at the border markets, and even invasions into Han chinese territory.

In 200BC,Hangaozu (founder of Han dynasty) was defeated by Xiongnu in a combat in Pinchen (now Datong,Shanxi province,PRC), and had to implement a marriage treaty up with the winner in order to keep peace.

During the period of 140-87BC,on assistance of the Dayueshi (the big Yuechi) from the west and Wuhan from the south, Han Chinese emperors (Wen and Wu the greatest in Chinese history) launched three full scale wars against Xiongnu and won, Xiongnu was greatly weakened ever since. which also provided a stage for the later on uprise of the Huihu the progenitor of vighor from inside the Xiongnu state.

Is there any direct connections between Vighor and Xiongnu?

I guess not.

The progenitors of Huihe were Xiongnu because of their custom of riding the high-wheeled carts. They were also called Gaoche during the Yuan Wei [Northern Wei 386－534] times, or Chile, which is an alternate name to Tiele.
—Xin Tangshu, 232

This is what one of the Chinese history book (compiled by Chinese Tang dynasty) says about their connection. but actually in ancient ages, relations between tribes or states, including both confrontations,migrations,and amalgamations, were extremely complicated.comparatively I would rather choose records made by Han dynasty due to their distent visits or expeditions deeply into the north and west. as historical works like Shiji,Hanshu,and Houhanshu.

Very little is known about the origin of the Dingling. They were a warlike group of hunters, fishers, and gatherers of the southern Siberian mountain taiga region from Lake Baikal to northern Mongolia. During the 2nd century BCE, they became subjects to Modu Shanyu along with 26 other tribes, including Yuezhi and Wusun, of whom very little of the names of these tribes is known.
Dingling - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Regards,

 

[kvLin]

Asia around 1AD, click to enlarge the map.


above pic is from Wikipedia but I'm not an absolute zealot of the site.
In the year 139BC when Zhangqian,the Han envoy went westward seeking for allies in order to beat Xiongnu, he was actually looking for Da-YueShi (the great Yue Chi) who had been droven west over Congling (the Pamir Plateau)by Xiongnu 50 years before from their homeland, west bank of Huanghe river in China , and he eventually arrived at Wusun. It was Wusun,Huihe and Wuhan that fought in coordination with Han chinese and finally cast out Xiongnu back to gobi deserts.

Tocharian is such an attraction to me that one never before realised Hellenic civilization to be so close to Chinese some 2000 years ago!

Tocharian was the east end precipitate of the Alexander wave, and his anabasis eastward was in period of 334BC-324BC,coevally the Warring States Era in China.

The Tocharians, living along the Silk Road, had contacts with the Chinese, Persians, Indian and Turkic tribes. They might be the same as, or were related to, the Indo-European Yuezhi who fled from their settlements in eastern Tarim Basin after attacks by the Xiongnu in the 2nd century BC (Shiji Chinese historical Chronicles, Chap. 123) and expanded south to Bactria and northern India to form the Kushan Empire..
--Wikipedia

I'm not sure whether Tocharian had ever assisted Han chinese in combats against Xiongnu, but Da Yuezhi did, and before which they had settled down as a state called Wusun. in above quotation the Shiji only said that the Yuechi originally lived around Tarim basin and fled westawrd under Xiongnu attacks, it never mentioned about any Indo-European features of Yuechi.

the only problem is, can we identify the equation of Tocharians with Yuechi?

"The Yuezhi originally lived in the area between the Qilian or Heavenly Mountains (Tian Shan) and Dunhuang, but after they were defeated by the Xiongnu they moved far away to the west, beyond Dayuan, where they attacked and conquered the people of Daxia and set up the court of their king on the northern bank of the Gui [= Oxus] River. A small number of their people who were unable to make the journey west sought refuge among the Qiang barbarians in the Southern Mountains, where they are known as the Lesser Yuezhi."

--Shiji
Yuezhi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Dunhuang is a place on the west bank of the Huanghe river,namely Hexi, way far away from the Tarim basin on the west, which might suggest that the Yuechi and Tocharians are different groups living in different area.

The Yuechi is a very old nomadic group of people in chinese history, and the earliest record of Yuechi was actually made in 645BC, 200 years before the Alexander expedition. and, if the Tarim mummies (pale face and blond hair)suggest the sometime existence of Indo-European people in central Asia (west China,or exactly,Xinjiang), never a single same mummy has been found in Hexi,where archeological excavation have arrived deep enough for Buddhism research.

Talking about the vicissitudes of people in northwest China, Wiki articles seem to be rather irresolute or even self-twisting. such as:

The first known reference to the Yuezhi was made in 645 BC by the Chinese Guan Zhong in his Guanzi 管子(Guanzi Essays: 73: 78: 80: 81). The dates of this book are disputed however, and it may date to as late as 1st century BCE.[10] The book described the Yuzhi 禺氏, or Niuzhi 牛氏, as a people from the north-west who supplied jade to the Chinese from the nearby mountains of Yuzhi 禺氏 at Gansu.

therefore, I'd like to draw a conclusion with my nodding acquaintance that,

1. Tocharians lived originally in the Tarim basin (within present Xinjiang),and then Daxia state during their migration westward.

2. Yuechi lived originally around Hexi (within present Gansu province,east of Xinjiang), and settled down as Wusun state after their migration westward.

 

[Proud to be Pakistani]

Indeed, it is difficult to smile at a radical person since he is so radical in his mind that he fails to see a smile!

I am not radical but i have opinions which are mostly against people like you and you seem to feel radicalism in me. If you think you are Liberal then you are mistaken.

If one is blind with hate, none can help him. Not even God to see the beauty and happiness that behold the scene around him!

If one gets hate as a gesture then one only has more hate for a gesture in return. I see that you are also not a Gandhi follower.

I assure you that many a Pakistanis on this forum to see the smile!

You are Biased in Smiling also!

Ya, you provide untouched logic and real comments which mean something for the forum. Right!

 

[Logic note]

Show your sick mentality of democracy (I won’t call somebody democratic zombie to degrade myself): denial of iron facts.

Dare you still say Chinese have no rights to protest after you viewed TAM clips? Or dare you say Indians have right to protest but not being killed after you read the article?

Iron Facts – Hmm let me see the facts
So posting a clip by an anonymous man on you tube is the right to protest . its tells you more about his fear .
You really have a twisted sense of freedom.

Have you ever logged into Chinese web sites to see what the people are voicing? Otherwise, do not attempt to show off your pitiful ignorance.

We all know the level of freedom in China - you discuss what governemnet allows you to. Other wise this happens - ç«‹å�³é‡‹æ”¾åŒ—京ç¶*權人士胡佳ï¼�Demand Immediate Release of Beijing Human Rights Activist Hu - Online Petition

And this is level of freedom of expression in China.

Freedom of Expression and the Internet in China: A Human Rights Watch Backgrounder (Human Rights Watch Backgrounder, July, 2001)

A country who even filters the Internet search -

Google Agrees to Censor Results in China

BBC NEWS | Technology | Google censors itself for China

Your inhuman nature manifests itself fully when you imply that the brutal kill of your innocent Indian brothers means them enjoying the “strength” of full political rights! Maybe their very death is your definition of “getting respectful rights”! Perhaps you would image that they are happily exercising rights right now while RIP!

My Dear Friend – the death of one protester is an unfortunate incident . but that happened because few protesters crossed the limit and started rioting, which led to that unfortunate incident but if your want to use it to prove the failure of democracy then my dear friend what about massacre of Tiananmen .

How hypocrite you are when claiming “nothing is perfect” but want Saudi and China to be perfect! You’d better go home to figure out a smarter way to wield double-standard next time: perhaps to leave some more spaces between the two standards so a reader won’t be stricken by the sharp contrast when the two are laid side by side so closely.

No my dear friend I don’t want nor do I expect anyone to be perfect . but there is some basic fundamental right , which every human shall relish .
I have immense respect for my Pakistani friends who are fighting for that basic fundamental right . Hope you understand this common sense

What you don’t like does not necessarily means other people don’t like, and vise versa. So don’t force your likeness to Saudi people. We’ve all seen that ugly face when democracy is imposed on Iraq. (Perhaps there indeed are some handful people who want their country to be Uncle Sam in South Asia, who knows!)

What happened in Iraq is not the rejection of democracy – but struggle for demoracy . read the news properly . the locals are fighting with outsiders and supporting US Army to claim that freedom which has been high jacked by Al Qaeda terrorist .

Poverty is not a sin - Poor man can live with self respect and dignity .
Havent you heard of Buddhist monks or Brahmans in ancient or medivial India .

Involuntary poverty is a sin: more a sin of the government! Those poor people never have full dignity and full freedom! Their only freedom is to suffer, to be poor, to be illiterate, to be manipulated, to be undignified, and to be humiliated...

Yes and that’s why I gave you example to ppl who took voluntary poverty to live .
But you again refused to see the Point . what I clearly expressed was that , you cant take someones freedom by luring him with the lollypop of economic benefits . given the option between his freedom with meager materliastic living and life of a slave with extra economic benefits,a sensible human being will choose his freedom ,
May be not in communist China 

Perhaps you should first spread what you believe to those protesting in your land of Bharat to be happy, or to be poor (or no electricity) and happy. I won’t mind at all if you make them all monks.

My dear friend , In India ppl have right to choose and demand what they want .

BTW, in case you want to be indulged in your religious preaching, it is your freedom and please open a thread for that in a different topic – just be respectful to other readers.

I know why you couldn’t understand it .Communism has proclaimed conquest on everything which human mind can relish . Its not religious preaching its common sense

 

[gpit]

...
In India ppl have right to choose and demand what they want .

How enticing your freedom is according to what you raved about...

Please enlighten me on these:

Can people of the lower section of Shudras (or the untouchables or Dalits) choose or demand to be Brahmins, so they can have better education and job?

Why UP 40,000 pregnant women per year "choose or demand" to die? That toll alone equals to 100 TAM incidents a year! (Note that UP women are still dying now, whereas Tiananmen incident was 20 years ago.)

Why Kahalgaon innocents shot dead while exercising their "right to choose and demand" as recent as only days ago denied their "right to choose and demand" to live and live better?

Why your free people "choose and demand" corrupted officials to staff your government?

Why your free people are so unhappy? Are they choosing or demanding unhappiness, just as they choose or demand to be poor, according to your hypotheses?

???

 

[Logic note]

Dear Gpit

You are repeating the same thing again and again are you not able to comprehend ?
are you trying to say that corruption , maternal infenticide , poverty is only in demoractic India and not in Communist China ? or Communism will eradicate them and democracy will not ?
I am not denying that China is economically better then India at this moment ,I have always accpetd that . you will progress faster and we will grow slower then you . that always has been and will always be . Autocratic governments always grow economically faster , Nazi Germany or Communist USSR is a good example of that but only for a short duration.

Demoractic growth are always slower but sustainable for longer duration . USA and UK are good example of that .

and to surrender freedom and human dignity for that little faster growth is foolishness .

and by the way Demoractic nations have achieve better results then communist nations . USA is a better example of that .

 

[gpit]

Dear Gpit

You are repeating the same thing again and again are you not able to comprehend ?
are you trying to say that corruption , maternal infenticide , poverty is only in demoractic India and not in Communist China ? or Communism will eradicate them and democracy will not ?
I am not denying that China is economically better then India at this moment ,I have always accpetd that . you will progress faster and we will grow slower then you . that always has been and will always be . Autocratic governments always grow economically faster , Nazi Germany or Communist USSR is a good example of that but only for a short duration.

Demoractic growth are always slower but sustainable for longer duration . USA and UK are good example of that .

I’m repeating them because all of these are evaded by you and they reflect the similarity of social problems between different developing countries REGARDLESS of their political systems. This not only applies to economic problems, but also to social and political ones as well.

While you allow a non-perfect democratic system a time to grow and perfect, you should also allow other forms to grow. This is the bone that I am picking with you. No political system is perfect; it's all about if it fits one’s country.

Many of your assertions are not correct. For instance, democracy can’t develop faster: as a mater of fact, democratic Japanese developed faster than China does now, and it was also only for a period of time.

English also went through an explosive growth under democracy in 1800s. English gathered wealth through worldwide pillage and laid not only the material foundation of their system, but also build an ideology that it is THEM (or their kind) that make the rules, all others are followers. As a stake holder of wealth, it is in their interest to keep the hierarchy of current world order, and to spread “democracy” to where it may not survive healthily but easier for them to manipulate (especially in smaller countries). Without the material richness and military power based on the wealth to protect it, there will be no healthy democracy. Frankly, their explosive growth under democracy in 1800s is on the consumption of Asian/African future healthy democracy.

I’ve never asserted non-democracy is superior, neither the other way round. The world is a unity of diversity: “all roads lead to Rome”, so should the political systems be.

and to surrender freedom and human dignity for that little faster growth is foolishness .

and by the way Demoractic nations have achieve better results then communist nations . USA is a better example of that .

I don’t think you’ve got it.

It would be truly silly to over-simplify issues.

As said before, Westerns’ better development today, more than anything else, is based on their earlier looting and later monopoly.

Freedom doesn’t have universality: if one has a freedom to kill, the killed doesn’t have freedom to live. If Westerners have freedom to exploit developing countries, the developing countries don’t have freedom to develop. If corrupted officials have freedom to embezzle, common people don’t have the freedom to enjoy better life. And so on…

No two countries can truly be compared. But it can probably be sure for the moment that China behaves better in general among Asian developing countries, if one cares to compare some parameters/variables. Yet it is obvious that Chinese system needs serious fixes which may include more tolerance and more democratization. Nobody ever doubts about that, including CPC leaders.

You can always refer to the future. However, future is from now and now is based on past.

The best society for human beings is currently not US, it is in Europe! (Per UN data) BTW, I hate to hear this, but this is a measure based on many reasonable parameters. Had US not arrogantly and sumptuously imposed its system on Iraq, but wisely enhanced port security and strengthened intelligence and intelligence penetration into suspected countries, and the kinds of soft measures like that, the country would probably be better off…

BTW, I bet you never cared to understand communism before you throw slurs on it. Be it known that many communist goals/purposes that were declared and predicted by Marx and Engels are successfully realized in the United States of America, and are enjoyed by many!

 

[kvLin]

Autocratic governments always grow economically faster , Nazi Germany or Communist USSR is a good example of that but only for a short duration.

Demoractic growth are always slower but sustainable for longer duration . USA and UK are good example of that.

I can hardly agree, political system is never the definitive factors for economic growth. take a look at how Worldbank introduces its Macroeconomics and Growth Research Program:

Understanding why some countries have grown so fast over long periods of time while in other countries, economic growth has stagnated and per capita income has even fallen is a central question in development economics. The answers to these questions are complex, and are the subject of extensive research.
Macroeconomics - About the Program

It's safe to say that none of the economically stagnated democratic states has been sacrificing economic growth for democracy, but there surely be people who are accustomed to find excuses for their economic lag.

btw,Nazi was democratically elected into power by a German majority,who felt disappointed on the terrible economic records given by the previous government.

 

[gpit]

If you can read Chinese, you can go to Uyghur Online forum. (They also type Uyghur language)

Most educated Uyghur wants more autonomy more but not full independence. Only the islamic fundamentalists support terrorism.

Do you have link, please?

 

[Logic note]

I’m repeating them because all of these are evaded by you and they reflect the similarity of social problems between different developing countries REGARDLESS of their political systems. This not only applies to economic problems, but also to social and political ones as well.

Right you nver got the point , instead of me repeating it again and again , if ppl in both the Political systems have same social, economical and political problems - why one shall compromise with its freedom and self respect ?

While you allow a non-perfect democratic system a time to grow and perfect, you should also allow other forms to grow. This is the bone that I am picking with you. No political system is perfect; it's all about if it fits one’s country.

I am repeating it again and again , this is not about political systems , as I mentioned even we Indians have Communism in two f our states . This is about the personal freedom and self respect of an individual .
So even if Communism starts respecting these two component and give right to its people , I will respect it .
But you know it cant happen .

Many of your assertions are not correct. For instance, democracy can’t develop faster: as a mater of fact, democratic Japanese developed faster than China does now, and it was also only for a period of time.

When I said Faster - it means relative or when compared to another country ( of EQUAL SIZE POPULATION ) and there are other facotrs also involved .
The democracy is slower in decision making because making agreemnt of majority is always slower then forcing an authority with Power .

English also went through an explosive growth under democracy in 1800s. English gathered wealth through worldwide pillage and laid not only the material foundation of their system, but also build an ideology that it is THEM (or their kind) that make the rules, all others are followers. As a stake holder of wealth, it is in their interest to keep the hierarchy of current world order, and to spread “democracy” to where it may not survive healthily but easier for them to manipulate (especially in smaller countries). Without the material richness and military power based on the wealth to protect it, there will be no healthy democracy. Frankly, their explosive growth under democracy in 1800s is on the consumption of Asian/African future healthy democracy.

First - Political system is a tool - there are other factors which also contribute to a nations development .
England progressed faster because of imperialism and lack of competition in the starting of century .
No no one can manipulate you, India is a good example of that . any weak nation can be exploited by powerful nations ,its not only democracy but even Dictatorships were manipulated . see the history of Africa and South America .

I’ve never asserted non-democracy is superior, neither the other way round. The world is a unity of diversity: “all roads lead to Rome”, so should the political systems be.

Not at the cost of basic Human rights

Freedom doesn’t have universality: if one has a freedom to kill, the killed doesn’t have freedom to live. If Westerners have freedom to exploit developing countries, the developing countries don’t have freedom to develop. If corrupted officials have freedom to embezzle, common people don’t have the freedom to enjoy better life. And so on…

You really dont know the meaning of Freedom , but i cant blame you . may be you really dont know .
Freedom comes with Responsibility . it is not running away from Society but accepetence and willingness to contribute to society .

No two countries can truly be compared. But it can probably be sure for the moment that China behaves better in general among Asian developing countries, if one cares to compare some parameters/variables. Yet it is obvious that Chinese system needs serious fixes which may include more tolerance and more democratization. Nobody ever doubts about that, including CPC leaders.

its not about national superiority , its about personal freedom .
Individuals right to express

The best society for human beings is currently not US, it is in Europe! (Per UN data) BTW, I hate to hear this, but this is a measure based on many reasonable parameters. Had US not arrogantly and sumptuously imposed its system on Iraq, but wisely enhanced port security and strengthened intelligence and intelligence penetration into suspected countries, and the kinds of soft measures like that, the country would probably be better off

Yes right Its Europe but in terms of Personal freedom I dont see much difference between USA and Europe .
Whats happening in Iraq is another topic . even before USA and during Saddam they fought each other. and Saddam used Chemicals Weapons on its own people .

BTW, I bet you never cared to understand communism before you throw slurs on it. Be it known that many communist goals/purposes that were declared and predicted by Marx and Engels are successfully realized in the United States of America, and are enjoyed by many!

Any political system with accpetence human freewill and self respect has to be respected .
I do understand and studied communism ,unlike you who havent understood Demoracy . we have two Indian states being rules by communist ( Bengal and Kerala)
And if USA has achievd those Moral goals of humanity , it proves that demoracy is better way to achieve the human development .

 

[Logic note]

I can hardly agree, political system is never the definitive factors for economic growth. take a look at how Worldbank introduces its Macroeconomics and Growth .

Yes I never said Political system is the definitive factor for economic growth there are many other factors . but decision making is always slower in democracy which effects the other economic factors .

btw,Nazi was democratically elected into power by a German majority,who felt disappointed on the terrible economic records given by the previous government.

yes but Nazism abolished demoracy and remaining is history .
there was no one to criticise and show the society the truth because no one was allowed to express his or her opinions.
its the expression of different opinions which doesnt allow the corrupting power to be centralised .

 

[kvLin]

Yes I never said Political system is the definitive factor for economic growth there are many other factors . but decision making is always slower in democracy which effects the other economic factors .

then you may have to prove:

Autocratic governments always grow economically faster ....
Demoractic growth are always slower but sustainable for longer duration.

and, LN, do you know how many years did CPC take to make a decision for the three gorges dam?

 

[gpit]

Right you nver got the point , instead of me repeating it again and again , if ppl in both the Political systems have same social, economical and political problems - why one shall compromise with its freedom and self respect ?

Freedom has to be compromised. As stated before, freedom isn't universal. If you grant freedom to terrorists, ordinary people don't have freedom to live peacefully!

I am surprised at your lack of basic knowledge about law and order for a decent society. Law and order are meant to limit freedom.

Not at the cost of basic Human rights

To me, the basic human rights is the rights to survive, the rights to be educated and to develop. Before those rights are accomplished, anything else is empty. For instance, how can a person dying of starvation to run political activities?! How can an illiterate eloquently debate with his opponents? However, while priority is set for those human rights to be in place, it doesn't mean that other types of human rights have to be limited completely.

its not about national superiority , its about personal freedom .
Individuals right to express

Again, if terrorists have their "personal freedom" or "Individuals right to express" unchecked, common people will have no rights or freedom to live in peace.

If your type of people constitutes majority in your country, it probably explains why terrorist organizations fourishing in your country:

List of Terrorist, Insurgent and Extremist Groups in India

Assam (Total of 36)
United Liberation Front of Asom (ULFA)
National Democratic Front of Bodoland (NDFB)
United People's Democratic Solidarity (UPDS)
Kamtapur Liberation Organisation (KLO)
Bodo Liberation Tiger Force (BLTF)
Dima Halim Daogah (DHD)
Karbi National Volunteers (KNV)
Rabha National Security Force (RNSF)
Koch-Rajbongshi Liberation Organisation (KRLO)
Hmar People's Convention- Democracy (HPC-D)
Karbi People's Front (KPF)
Tiwa National Revolutionary Force (TNRF)
Bircha Commando Force (BCF)
Bengali Tiger Force (BTF)
Adivasi Security Force (ASF)
All Assam Adivasi Suraksha Samiti (AAASS)
Gorkha Tiger Force (GTF)
Barak Valley Youth Liberation Front (BVYLF)
Muslim United Liberation Tigers of Assam (MULTA)
United Liberation Front of Barak Valley
Muslim United Liberation Front of Assam (MULFA)
Muslim Security Council of Assam (MSCA)
United Liberation Militia of Assam (ULMA)
Islamic Liberation Army of Assam (ILAA)
Muslim Volunteer Force (MVF)
Muslim Liberation Army (MLA)
Muslim Security Force (MSF)
Islamic Sevak Sangh (ISS)
Islamic United Reformation Protest of India (IURPI)
United Muslim Liberation Front of Assam (UMLFA)
Revolutionary Muslim Commandos (RMC)
Muslim Tiger Force (MTF)
People’s United Liberation Front (PULF)
Adam Sena (AS)
Harkat-ul-Mujahideen
Harkat-ul-Jehad


Jammu & Kashmir (Total of 36)
Lashkar-e-Omar (LeO)
Hizb-ul-Mujahideen (HM)
Harkat-ul-Ansar (HuA, presently known as Harkat-ul Mujahideen)
Lashkar-e-Toiba (LeT)
Jaish-e-Mohammad Mujahideen E-Tanzeem (JeM)
Harkat-ul Mujahideen (HuM, previously known as Harkat-ul-Ansar)
Al Badr
Jamait-ul-Mujahideen (JuM)
Lashkar-e-Jabbar (LeJ)
Harkat-ul-Jehad-i-Islami
Al Barq
Tehrik-ul-Mujahideen
Al Jehad
Jammu & Kashir National Liberation Army
People’s League
Muslim Janbaz Force
Kashmir Jehad Force
Al Jehad Force (combines Muslim Janbaz Force and Kashmir Jehad Force)
Al Umar Mujahideen
Mahaz-e-Azadi
Islami Jamaat-e-Tulba
Jammu & Kashmir Students Liberation Front
Ikhwan-ul-Mujahideen
Islamic Students League
Tehrik-e-Hurriat-e-Kashmir
Tehrik-e-Nifaz-e-Fiqar Jafaria
Al Mustafa Liberation Fighters
Tehrik-e-Jehad-e-Islami
Muslim Mujahideen
Al Mujahid Force
Tehrik-e-Jehad
Islami Inquilabi Mahaz
Mutahida Jehad Council (MJC)
Jammu & Kashmir Liberation Front (JKLF
All Parties Hurriyat Conference (APHC)
Dukhtaran-e-Millat (DeM)


Manipur (Total of 39)
United National Liberation Front (UNLF)
People’s Liberation Army (PLA)
People’s Revolutionary Party of Kangleipak (PREPAK)
The above mentioned three groups now operate from a unified platform, the Manipur People’s Liberation Front (MPLF)
Kangleipak Communist Party (KCP)
Kanglei Yawol Kanna Lup (KYKL)
Manipur Liberation Tiger Army (MLTA)
Iripak Kanba Lup (IKL)
People’s Republican Army (PRA)
Kangleipak Kanba Kanglup (KKK)
Kangleipak Liberation Organisation (KLO)
Revolutionary Joint Committee (RJC)
National Socialist Council of Nagaland -- Isak-Muivah (NSCN-IM)
People’s United Liberation Front (PULF)
North East Minority Front (NEMF)
Islamic National Front (INF)
Islamic Revolutionary Front (IRF)
United Islamic Liberation Army (UILA)
United Islamic Revolutionary Army (UIRA)
Kuki National Front (KNF)
Kuki National Army (KNA)
Kuki Revolutionary Army (KRA)
Kuki National Organisation (KNO)
Kuki Independent Army (KIA)
Kuki Defence Force (KDF)
Kuki International Force (KIF)
Kuki National Volunteers (KNV)
Kuki Liberation Front (KLF)
Kuki Security Force (KSF)
Kuki Liberation Army (KLA)
Kuki Revolutionary Front (KRF)
United Kuki Liberation Front (UKLF)
Hmar People’s Convention (HPC)
Hmar People's Convention- Democracy (HPC-D)
Hmar Revolutionary Front (HRF)
Zomi Revolutionary Army (ZRA)
Zomi Revolutionary Volunteers (ZRV)
Indigenous People's Revolutionary Alliance(IRPA)
Kom Rem People's Convention (KRPC)
Chin Kuki Revolutionary Front (CKRF)

Meghalaya (Total of 4)
Hynniewtrep National Liberation Council (HNLC)
Achik National Volunteer Council (ANVC)
People’s Liberation Front of Meghalaya (PLF-M)
Hajong United Liberation Army (HULA)


Nagaland (Total of 3)
National Socialist Council of Nagaland (Isak-Muivah) – NSCN(IM)
National Socialist Council of Nagaland (Khaplang) – NSCN (K)
Naga National Council (Adino) – NNC (Adino)


Punjab (Total of 12)
Babbar Khalsa International (BKI)
Khalistan Zindabad Force (KZF)
International Sikh Youth Federation (ISYF)
Khalistan Commando Force (KCF)
All-India Sikh Students Federation (AISSF)
Bhindrawala Tigers Force of Khalistan (BTFK)
Khalistan Liberation Army (KLA)
Khalistan Liberation Front (KLF)
Khalistan Armed Force (KAF)
Dashmesh Regiment
Khalistan Liberation Organisation (KLO)
Khalistan National Army (KNA)


Tripura (Total of 30)
National Liberation Front of Tripura (NLFT)
All Tripura Tiger Force (ATTF)
Tripura Liberation Organisation Front (TLOF)
United Bengali Liberation Front (UBLF)
Tripura Tribal Volunteer Force (TTVF)
Tripura Armed Tribal Commando Force (TATCF)
Tripura Tribal Democratic Force (TTDF)
Tripura Tribal Youth Force (TTYF)
Tripura Liberation Force (TLF)
Tripura Defence Force (TDF)
All Tripura Volunteer Force (ATVF)
Tribal Commando Force (TCF)
Tripura Tribal Youth Force (TTYF)
All Tripura Bharat Suraksha Force (ATBSF)
Tripura Tribal Action Committee Force (TTACF)
Socialist Democratic Front of Tripura (SDFT)
All Tripura National Force (ATNF)
Tripura Tribal Sengkrak Force (TTSF)
Tiger Commando Force (TCF)
Tripura Mukti Police (TMP)
Tripura Rajya Raksha Bahini (TRRB)
Tripura State Volunteers (TSV)
Tripura National Democratic Tribal Force (TNDTF)
National Militia of Tripura (NMT)
All Tripura Bengali Regiment (ATBR)
Bangla Mukti Sena (BMS)
All Tripura Liberation Organisation (ATLO)
Tripura National Army (TNA)
Tripura State Volunteers (TSV)
Borok National Council of Tripura (BNCT)


Mizoram (Total of 2)
Bru National Liberation Front
Hmar People's Convention- Democracy (HPC-D)


Arunachal Pradesh (Total of 1)
Arunachal Dragon Force (ADF)

Left-wing Extremist groups (Total of 5)
People's Guerrilla Army
People's War Group
Maoist Communist Centre
Communist Party of India-Maoist (CPI-Maoist)
Communist Party of India (Marxist Leninist) Janashakti

Other Extremist Groups (Total of 9)
Tamil National Retrieval Troops (TNRT)
Akhil Bharat Nepali Ekta Samaj (ABNES)
Tamil Nadu Liberation Army (TNLA)
Deendar Anjuman
Students Islamic Movement of India (SIMI)
Asif Reza Commando Force
Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam (LTTE)
Kamatapur Liberation Organisation (KLO)
Ranvir Sena

You probably will still hail this as grand results of your kind of freedom, which I don't care. In contrast, extremist organizations’ rights of freedom, including those of East Turkmenistan, are limited/not allowed in China, and ordinary Chinese therefore surfer less from terrorists.

Any political system with accpetence human freewill and self respect has to be respected .
I do understand and studied communism ,unlike you who havent understood Demoracy . ....

I stop short calling you arrogant while you proclaim that you understand democracy: democracy is about compromise of interest among mainstream societies with some consideration of the unprivileged through law and orders respected by all, including compromise of individual freedom. It is not about to exploit egoism to the extreme!

 

[gpit]

...

And if USA has achievd those Moral goals of humanity , it proves that demoracy is better way to achieve the human development .

Thanks for admitting, though shyly, that some of what communism meant for are a part to achieve of human development.

As matter of fact, in 50-60s, so called “social amelioration movement” in Europe is the results of intensive study on communism. Some wisemen called for some degree of profit sharing between rich and poor (such as nowadays “social welfare system” in US and W. Europe) so that violent revolution can be avoided and the rich can keep their wealth, albeit a few % lesser in amount.

Further, many of what USSR or China did/do are not communist!