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China’s past secret dealings and betrayal against VN + other allies

our biggest mistake is let the viets to make their country as one,the south viet is gone.
we should make them like korea.
if mao was alive in the 80s the viets wont be one country but two.

It is tactic of CPC from 1954, On June 23 1954, Mendès France PM of France, had secretly met with Zhou Enlai at the French Embassy in Bern. China is backstabber from 1954 long before Mao's dead..
 
Let me interrupt, because it relates to my topic as well.

Your question may sound legitimate, but it is still an incomplete/meaningless question until you expand on the word “repay” which you used in that question. When you mention “repay”, you must also have a value of that repayment in mind, what is the value of this repayment that needs to be paid back? what type of repayment Vietnam supposedly need to “pay” back China?...and most importantly, how did you calculate this value? Basically, if you ask for a “repayment”, you need to issue an invoice to the person you are demanding it from. And like all invoices, what is important is the value that is asked for and how that value was calculated. So, your question about a “repayment” is incomplete/meaningless until you can show your detailed “invoice”.

This leads to another point, this “repayment” you were talking about cannot be referred to in legal terms, but can only be referred to in terms of something that relates more to ethics/morality obligation. I am under no legal obligation to give my extra sandwich to a starving street kid sitting next to me, but some say I have a moral obligation to do so. Or more related to your question, a person in front of me could be entering through a door and decides to pause and hold the door for me. I will have no legal obligation to pay anything back to him, but most would say I owed him at least a “thank you”.

This applies to your question because there is no legally binding agreement that currently exist where Vietnam is obliged to “repay” anything back to China. So you cannot talk about the notion of “repayment” in terms of law, you can only talk about it in terms of ethics/moral obligation like in the case of the guy holding the door. But even in terms of ethics/moral obligation, you would still need to show your calculation of how have came up with that repayment value/moral obligation, you need to show the “invoice” I mentioned.

An “invoice” calculated in reference to ethics/morality is even harder to come up with than a legal invoice. What if the guy holding the door was a neo-nazi with ill-intentions against me but was just holding the door purely for his grandmother who was walking behind me? do I still morally owe him a “thank you”? This is just a simple example, the VN-CN issue is much more complicated. There are much more factors that you need to take into consideration when you calculate your “invoice”. Vietnam suffered damage in the 1979 VN-China war, who was right and who was wrong? does the damage offset what VN morally “owes” to China? China negotiated with the US during the VN-US war contrary to Vietnam’s interest, so how would this affect your moral repayment calculation? various Viet dynasties paid tributes to China right up to the period France colonized VN, which some argued that China had the obligation to protect VN but failed to do. So how would this also affect your calculation of the repayment to China for “helping VN get rid of a western colonizer”? There are much more factors that need to be taken into consideration when calculating your “invoice” that is based on morality rather than on law. It may turned out that VN still does owe China something, it may turned out that VN owes nothing, or it may even turn out that China owes VN. Who knows, I’ve never seen such calculation made before.

So in short (if you dont want to read the above), you talked about a repayment that Vietnam needs to pay China but this can only be talked about not in legal terms but in terms of ethics/moral obligations. And more importantly, you need to show your calculation how you came up with your conclusion that there is a “repayment” that VN owed and the value of this repayment. Since you have mentioned this repayment, can you kindly show us your calcuation for it? Please show the invoice and how you calculated it. I am actually interested to look at your calculation since many Chinese also claim similar things but I’ve never seen a proper figure and its calculation before. I hope Chinese members like +4vsgorillas-Apebane can help you out since they have the habit of talkimg about Chinese help and ingratitute which hints that they also think people owed China something.

And my last point: this relates to my topic in the sense that “betrayal” or “turning ones back” similarly can only be talked about in terms of ethics/morality and not in terms of law (because there were hardly any formal treaty/legally binding agreements made between VN-CN). This also means that Chinese members would also need to explain their moral calculus in coming to the conclusion that VN betrayed or turned its back against China and all the various factors that they have considered in their moral calculus. Chinese members seem to be ignorant of this concept because they never seem to be able to present their calculus other than the primitive and unsophisticated ideas like China sent xyz weapons and trained some Viets in year 1234 therefore VN still now owes China, while ignoring the other important factors. I will also need to talk in reference to ethics/morality too and will slowly make my posts on it.

In this world of uncertainty and transience, NOTHING is guaranteed and this definitely applies to the tally of debts and obligations. The ties that bind people run much much deeper than 'invoices' for services rendered and goods received.

Legality and cold hard cash be dammed, the help given to the Vietnamese by the Chinese cannot be quantified and settled with an invoice.

What is the value of a wife to a husband? The monetary value of a friend who stood up for you against terrible enemies? The value of peasants who cannot afford to feed them selves give sacks of rice to a cause in the inhospitable jungles of S.E.A?

Chinese do not ask for any payment in monetary terms, all that is requested is the friendship of a people or at least the recognition that China assisted Vietnam in a time of crisis. Chinese assistance in the 1950s in terms of food, weapons, ammunition and advisers lead to the dislodging of the parasitic french from Vietnam. The decisive artillery guns in Dien Bien Phu were Chinese, the sacks of rice feeding the Viet Min came from China and the plan to attack Dien Bien Phu was advised by Chinese based on their experience in fighting Western powers in Korea.

What is the monetary value? The Invoice?

It can be quantified by the tonns and the cost but the value exceeds the sum of its parts.

On the topic of betrayal, China did side with the U.S in 1972 but by that time relations with Vietnam had already become frosty. The Sino Soviet split over leadership of the communist world had lead to open fighting and talks of Soviets Nuking China was a real deal concern. So real that tunnel networks had to be constructed in the event that the Soviets with their superior weapons would nuke China. If I recall correctly, the Soviets had amassed 25 divisions on the Chinese border and the primitive Chinese weapons were far from a match back in those days.

Vietnam had to choose a side. Stick with the Asian brothers and sisters who helped them get rid of the French and fight the Americans or side with the richer and more powerful Soviet union. It might seem an easy choice back then to back the Soviets but the Vietnamese leadership back then failed to see the the possibility of Soviet collapse and Chinese ascendancy. It was a poor choice to back the Soviets.

Seeds sown in the past sprout in the present and Vietnam planted the sacks of fancy Soviet seeds that proved to be empty and low yielding. The Chinese seeds looked like shit back then but in the long term is far more productive and worthwhile.
 
Legality and cold hard cash be dammed, the help given to the Vietnamese by the Chinese cannot be quantified and settled with an invoice.

Mate did you even bothered to read my other previous posts? When you said that China had given Vietnam help and that VN then somehow would owe China her friendship or recognition in return, then you basically have already “quantified” China’s deed to conclude that her deeds have put VN in debt to China, such as a friendship or recognition that you mentioned. But of course, as I have previously said, you seem to have ignored China’s other negative deeds, some of which I have already mentioned.


What is the value of a wife to a husband? The monetary value of a friend who stood up for you against terrible enemies?

A “friend who stood up for us against terrible enemies”? Are you including the US for this example? because sure, you send some equipments and aid for VN to fight against the US, but then you later switched side and decided to stand with the US as their “friends” when VN was still fighting its war against the US, during the years of some heaviest bombings I should add. Yet you still dare call yourself a “friend who stood up for you against terrible enemies”??
This is a perfect example of what I was talking about previously, you seem to cherry pick the socalled “positive” actions but ignore your “negative” actions.

As for your wife analogy, yeah sure, a good wife is great, worth more than what money can buy, but what happen if that wife then betrays her husband? or what if it turn out that she had malicious intentions against her husband all along beneath her nice wifey facade? What is her value and worth then???


The value of peasants who cannot afford to feed them selves give sacks of rice to a cause in the inhospitable jungles of S.E.A?

Chinese do not ask for any payment in monetary terms, all that is requested is the friendship of a people or at least the recognition that China assisted Vietnam in a time of crisis. Chinese assistance in the 1950s in terms of food, weapons, ammunition and advisers lead to the dislodging of the parasitic french from Vietnam. The decisive artillery guns in Dien Bien Phu were Chinese, the sacks of rice feeding the Viet Min came from China and the plan to attack Dien Bien Phu was advised by Chinese based on their experience in fighting Western powers in Korea.

What is the monetary value? The Invoice?

First of all, how the CCP had deceived and brainwashed its own poor peasants into giving money is not Vietnam’s fault. If the peasant had any issue with their donation, they should take it up against the CCP. It was very kind of those poor peasants to be giving like that and very unfortunate that they got deceived by their CCP leaders, but the deception was the fault of the CCP.

As for the value of the help that China had sent (some of which the CCP had solicitated and deceived from their poor peasants) it would become worthless if China had malicious motives for giving it or when China later betrays VN.

I have already given you an example: if I give you a house, but have malicious motives for giving it or if I later betray you and destroy your family/friends and burn your 2 other houses, do you think I would then still have the right to brag about my kind deeds for giving you a house and ask you for a recognition or friendship in return?? No I no longer do. Only a shameless person would still ask for “friendship” and “recognition” in that situation.

And I have already given you a few example...that China had planned and intended Vietnam to be divided and weak, a malicious intention that Vietnamese leaders had already knew and western sources agreed with (like the one I referenced). You then send aid so that north Vietnam can exist as a buffer state. When you realized that north VN is determined to send its army to the south and reunify, you switch side and allied with the US. I can (and will) post more articles more detailed on these.


On the topic of betrayal, China did side with the U.S in 1972 but by that time relations with Vietnam had already become frosty. The Sino Soviet split over leadership of the communist world had lead to open fighting and talks of Soviets Nuking China was a real deal concern. So real that tunnel networks had to be constructed in the event that the Soviets with their superior weapons would nuke China. If I recall correctly, the Soviets had amassed 25 divisions on the Chinese border and the primitive Chinese weapons were far from a match back in those days.

As I have said, China had her own interests and had the right to pursue her own interests. China don’t have any obligations to help anyone. China had the right put her priority first when dealing with the China-US-Soviet dynamics.

But you can’t have your cake and eat it. If you have realigned yourself with new allies and have taken actions that betrays Vietnam, then don’t try to still brag about your previous help to VN and talk like VN still owe something in return like friendship and recognition.

Vietnam had to choose a side. Stick with the Asian brother...

When an Asian brother had no intention for Vietnam to be reunified but wanted it to stay divided and weak, and especially when that Asian “brother” later became friends with the enemy that VN was fighting a war against...I don’t think anyone would consider that a “brother”.


Stick with the Asian brothers and sisters who helped them get rid of the French and fight the Americans or side with the richer and more powerful Soviet union...

First of all, you are cherry picking your “deeds” and being inconsistent again, admitting that you have later sided with the US in one paragrapgh and then still claiming you have helped fight the US in another paragraph. Technically China did helped once in the past, but it is shameful to still talk about it when you later befriend that enemy before the war ended.

And secondly, the Soviet had been with VN (and China) from the start. Ho Chi Minh was first trained in the USSR before he continued in China. It is China who splitted from this alliance and then later befriended the US. Like I said, China had her own reasons against the USSR and had the right to pursue them. But between VN and China, it was China who had broken off and became a turncoat. Don’t try to spin it the other way around.

China betray VN, and add"+other allies", hehe, you hatred make me laugh. the biggest advantage and disadvantage of Vietnam is too close to China, this is warning to Vietnam, this is your fate.

Don’t try to play the “you are a hater” card.

I have already explained why this thread was created. It is an overdued response to the endless Chinese help/VN betrayal rhetorics from your fellow Chinese countrymen. If your Chinese fellows didn’t always repeat tgose same propaganda crap, then this thread wouldn’t have existed.

But as expected, you feel its OK for your fellows to talk about “VN betrayal, etc” but when someone create a thread to debunk and refute them, it suddenly becomes a case of “you are just being a hater”. Your double standard is not surprising.
 
Don’t try to play the “you are a hater” card.

I have already explained why this thread was created. It is an overdued response to the endless Chinese help/VN betrayal rhetorics from your fellow Chinese countrymen. If your Chinese fellows didn’t always repeat tgose same propaganda crap, then this thread wouldn’t have existed.

But as expected, you feel its OK for your fellows to talk about “VN betrayal, etc” but when someone create a thread to debunk and refute them, it suddenly becomes a case of “you are just being a hater”. Your double standard is not surprising.
Card? hehe, what's that? :coffee:

From your previous comments, and the thread, in my eyes, you are really "naive", or frankly speaking, you are too ignorant.

In the forum, what your vietnamese fellows repeat are much more, you don't find that? whether need Chinese open some threads to discuss on these separately? hehe, sorry, we are not that boring like you, the title of the thread make me laugh, you like children, hehe.

How you prove what you post is truth, without bias? If I have double standard to you, so what about you? do you find some comments that you compatriot made in the forum are too stupid and funny?

I tell you straightly, I am hater to Vietnam, no need to hide this, and you naiveness is also not surprising.:coffee:
 
Card? hehe, what's that? :coffee:

From your previous comments, and the thread, in my eyes, you are really "naive", or frankly speaking, you are too ignorant.

In the forum, what your vietnamese fellows repeat are much more, you don't find that? whether need Chinese open some threads to discuss on these separately? hehe, sorry, we are not that boring like you, the title of the thread make me laugh, you like children, hehe.

How you prove what you post is truth, without bias? If I have double standard to you, so what about you? do you find some comments that you compatriot made in the forum are too stupid and funny?

I tell you straightly, I am hater to Vietnam, no need to hide this, and you naiveness is also not surprising.:coffee:

lol you are just rambling and ranting off-topic again, 90% of which I don’t care or understand as it doesn’t even relates to the topics of this thread. And I do not care if you are a “hater to Vietnam”. I was just pointing out your hypocrisy in accusing me of being a “hater” when it was only you who was being the “hater”, so thanks for supporting my point.

Anyway back on to topic.

Something old and light to begin with:

http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB145/

Documentary Reveals Secret U.S., Chinese Diplomacy Behind Nixon's Trip

National Security Archive Electronic Briefing Book No. 145


Chinese marshal received Top Secret intelligence briefing from Kissinger in 1972, member of four marshals who told Mao "play the American card" in 1969

"History Declassified: Nixon in China" premieres December 21, 2004, 10 p.m. EST, on Discovery Times Channel (digital cable by Discovery and the New York Times)

ABC News Productions based show on National Security Archive documents,
Interviewed Kissinger, Haig, Lord, Smyser, and China Experts


Washington D.C., Tuesday, December 21, 2004 - The first TV documentary based on the fully declassified record of President Nixon's historic trip to China in 1972 premieres tonight on the Discovery Times Channel at 10 p.m. EST. Titled "History Declassified: Nixon in China," the show combines previously secret U.S. documents gathered by the National Security Archive with newly available evidence from Chinese files to reveal details of the dramatic diplomacy that remained hidden for 30 years.

Shown on television for the first time are the secret initiatives on the Chinese side that began as early as 1969, when a group of four marshals recommended that Chairman Mao "play the American card" against the Soviet threat and even undertake high-level talks with the U.S.

One of the four marshals then sat across from national security advisor Henry Kissinger during the most secret single meeting of the 1972 Nixon trip, when Kissinger briefed the Chinese in detail on Soviet troop movements - details so sensitive even the U.S. intelligence community was kept out of the loop. The transcript only emerged in 2003 after appeals by the National Security Archive. "My jaw dropped when I saw what these discussions had covered," says Tom Jarriel, who reported on Nixon's trip for ABC News, in the documentary.

"The new documents are rewriting the history of that amazing breakthrough, of what we thought we knew," comments Blanton on screen in the program. "But the new evidence also serves as a reminder of the use and abuse of government secrecy."

The Archive today posted ten of the documents cited in "History Declassified: Nixon in China," including an excerpt from the four marshals' report, transcripts of telephone calls (telcons) between Nixon and Kissinger, a front page photograph in the People's Daily intended by Mao as a signal to the Americans (which they missed), and the transcript of Kissinger's 1972 intelligence briefing to Marshal Ye Jianying.

nixmao.jpg
 
When an Asian brother had no intention for Vietnam to be reunified but wanted it to stay divided and weak, and especially when that Asian “brother” later became friends with the enemy that VN was fighting a war against...I don’t think anyone would consider that a “brother”.

William I'm gonna resurrect this thread, as I've new info to share and some I had not share before, because life -- you know how it is.
For now I will comment briefly and post evidence later.

Mao expressed deep regret that he did not argue more to support Vietnam in '54 conference, you have to understand China was also a pawn with the two powers [US v USSR].

It was not Mao that decided to war with Vietnam, actually he had a connection with Vietnamese because Ho Chi Minh and fellow revolutionaries lived and studied in China. Ho Chi Minh would also take part in educating Chinese soldiers on Communism - I would also think Vietnamese soldiers fought along side Chinese soldiers against the imperialist, because why would Vietnamese live and study in China, travel with soldiers and not involve themselves in actual war? This would of been their training.
Ho Chi Minh loyalty toward Mao was also evident when he tried to reconcile China/USSR relations in a secret meeting in 1960.
When the war with Vietnam was decided it was Deng's decision with US backing. Veteran generals of the PLA rejected the idea of war and some senior generals didn't even show up for meetings in disgust, not to mention the unwillingness of the three southern states bordering Vietnam. China had to be 'Politically Mobilized' to give reason for a war with Vietnam - you see idiots like sweetgrape are a by-product of this 'Political Mobilization' - an indoctrination program designed to make them hate Vietnamese, to instilled slogans in them e.g. Ungrateful Vietnamese.
My sources are actually Chinese, mostly from the book Deng Xiaoping's Long War by Xiaoming Zhang. I recommend this book!
 
China think for themselves when they backed Khmer Rouge and launched invasions to Vietnam during 1977-1979.
It doesn't matter if they follow US, but once they or their back supported regime start to invade Vietnam, we can't ignore them as betrayal guys.
 
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