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China's J-15 Carrier-Based Fighter is Inferior to Russian Su-33 fighter: Russia

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now that's not fair!!!!!!!!!! You should use English so that we can also understand your post..:undecided::undecided:

Here is the meaning of my post.

Russia: In the past we were better than the US, today we are better than China, in the future we will be better than India, lol :cheesy:

Sorry buddy, I found that this rhetorical expression has more sense of humor in Chinese therefore I posted it in Chinese. :mps:
 
Here is the meaning of my post.

Russia: In the past we were better than the US, today we are better than China, in the future we will be better than India, lol :cheesy:

Sorry buddy, I found that this rhetorical expression has more sense of humor in Chinese therefore I posted it in Chinese. :mps:

:woot:
:rofl::rofl::rofl:
 
这说明现在的毛子已经没有以前那么有信心了,以前和米帝比,现在要轮到和TG比了,以后看来只能和三锅比了。。。

呵呵 老俄国技术上跟我们比不上所以只能用嘴来比 哈哈 真没出息呀。。。

看它们是彻底 GG 啦 哈哈
 
中华人民共和国;910835 said:
And why does Russia always underestimate us all the time? Making up so many false accusations only to find out we beat all their claims a decade in advance :D. Stupid Russians.

Watch yourself.

中华人民共和国;911110 said:
"Seems like the Ruskies are losing faith. Before, they used to compare themselves to the Yanks, now us. What next? Indians?"

My interpretation/take.

You and your 'take' don't mean anything.
 
中华人民共和国;911129 said:
My take on the interpretation actually means quite a bit,

Your garbage racists posts don't mean anything to anyone and no one cares for your vague assumptions.


中华人民共和国;911129 said:
seeing as I know the language better than you do,

What language would this be?

中华人民共和国;911129 said:
I have more authority over what I can say and I can't.

Who do you have authority over?
 
Your garbage racists posts don't mean anything to anyone and no one cares for your vague assumptions.




What language would this be?



Who do you have authority over?

Quite raging, I'm referring to this one line of post someone else wrote:

这说明现在的毛子已经没有以前那么有信心了,以前和米帝比,现在要轮到和TG比了,以后看来只能和三锅比了 。。。

I have freedom to translate at will and give my take on the translation as I like, so why should you refrain me from doing so?
 
中华人民共和国;911110 said:
"Seems like the Ruskies are losing faith. Before, they used to compare themselves to the Yanks, now us. What next? Indians?"

My interpretation/take.

LOL... so if Russians compare their Su-33 (which first flew in 1995) with the Chinese Su-33 clone known as J-15 (which is still a prototype), are they actually "comparing themselves" or their military technology to that of the Chinese? And even if someone compares the two jets, mind the years gap in there.

On a similar note, you guys must be rejoicing when Rolls-Royce was planning trademark suit against Geely Motors. -- "Yeay! Rolls-Royce is losing its faith. Before, it used to compare itself with Bentley. Now, China's Geely. What next?" Yeah... what next?
 
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Leadership: China Eats Russia Alive

China Eats Russia Alive
June 14, 2010: After years of having their military technology blatantly stolen by China, Russia is no longer selling them much of anything. In addition, the state controlled Russian media is now featuring lots of pundits deploring the low performance of the Chinese arms industry, and how poorly they have copied Russian military technology. A recent flurry of reports disparaged Chinese attempts to copy the Russian Su-33 (an aircraft carrier version of the Su-27). This all rings hollow when you consider how the Chinese have already caught up with a lot of Russian military manufacturers, and are driving them out of business in some areas.

For example, using stolen Russian technology, China is driving Russia out of the low-end weapons business. In turn, Russian attempts to maintain their status as a major developer of military technology are fumbling, largely because of the sales stolen by China. Increasingly, China is undercutting Russian sales efforts with similar weapons containing lots of stolen Russian technology. The Chinese won't invest as much in developing new technology, and the Russians can no longer afford to. So the second tier weapons markets slide further into mediocrity.

Through most (1960s-80s) of the Cold War, Russia (Soviet Union) had a well financed arms industry. Many innovative weapons were developed, but all this effort was hobbled by the fact that the Russian economy as a whole was very inefficient, and Russian industry could not build high tech as well, or reliably, as Western firms. Thus Russian high-tech gear always came in second to Western counterparts.

When the Cold War ended, so did the lavish spending on the Russian defense industries. Many, actually over half, of these weapons manufacturers went bankrupt, or converted to non-military production. Those that survived, did so by exporting weapons. Throughout the 1990s, the Russian armed forces could not afford to buy much new stuff. China came to the rescue in the 1990s, and over the next decade, bought nearly $20 billion in Russian arms. But China also began to blatantly copy lots of the Russian tech, and build their own. Thus, not surprisingly, for the last five years, Chinese orders have shrunk, while production of copies of Russian tech have increased. In some cases, Russia has simply refused to sell China high tech stuff, to avoid having it copied.

In the 1990s, Chinese manufacturing capabilities were so far behind that Russia believed their lead would never disappear. But with Russian military manufacturing largely stalled for the last two decades, and the Chinese economy booming (over 10 percent growth per year), the Russians are horrified to realize that the Chinese are catching up, and fast. For example, China believes it will be free from dependence on Russia for military jet engines within the next five (or so) years. Currently, China imports two Russian engines, the $3.5 million AL-31 (for the Su-27/30, J-11, J-10) and the $2.5 million RD-93 (a version of the MiG-29s RD-33) for the JF-17 (a F-16 type aircraft developed in cooperation with Pakistan.) But in the meantime, Chinese engineers have managed to master the manufacturing techniques needed to make a Chinese copy of the Russian AL31F engine. This Chinese copy, the WS10A, is part of a program that has also developed the WS13, to replace the RD-93.

China has long copied foreign technology, not always successfully. But in the last decade, China has poured much money into developing a jet engine manufacturing capability. The Chinese encountered many of the same problems the Russians did when developing their own engine design and construction skills. But China has several advantages. First, they knew of the mistakes the Russians had made, and so were able to avoid many of them. Then there was the fact that China had better access to Western manufacturing technology (both legally and illegally). Finally, China was, unlike the Soviets, able to develop their engine manufacturing capabilities in a market economy. This was much more efficient than the command economy that the Soviets were saddled with for seven decades.

It is true, as the Russians like to point out, that the Chinese have taken a long time to develop some of their latest high-tech weapons (like the J-10 and JF-17 jet fighters, jet engines and many missile and electronic systems). But that's because the Chinese regarded these projects as learning exercises, and have not produced the resulting aircraft in large numbers. The Chinese use what they have learned for the next project, and they have made a lot of progress in two decades. China has already demonstrated an ability to build (and copy) world class technology. They now have the largest automobile industry on the planet. China can build things, and build them well. They learn from their mistakes, and they are surpassing their long time Russian mentors. The Russians know this is true, but they don't want to admit it.
 
I hail and admire the China's capability to absorb the technology and reproducing it rapidly. I am sure within a decade, China will be indepandent in the defence and other technology sector.

However, having said that, I still prefer evolution over emulation. It is slow and demanding, but most advantageous. No country can be on top forever. It was west and Russia for long, now asian countries surging ahead.

Russians have contributed so much in the field of science and technology, copying the products will not take anything from them. Since they know all the mistakes they made to accomplish that which if someone just simply copy would never know. Learning from mistakes brings maturity and you evolve.

I am happy that Indians still believe in asking for assistance if not able to solve the problem rather than trying to copy the working model. We are slow and not making equivalent progress, however when we move a inch forward, it is hard earned.
 
I hail and admire the China's capability to absorb the technology and reproducing it rapidly. I am sure within a decade, China will be indepandent in the defence and other technology sector.

However, having said that, I still prefer evolution over emulation. It is slow and demanding, but most advantageous. No country can be on top forever. It was west and Russia for long, now asian countries surging ahead.

Russians have contributed so much in the field of science and technology, copying the products will not take anything from them. Since they know all the mistakes they made to accomplish that which if someone just simply copy would never know. Learning from mistakes brings maturity and you evolve.

I am happy that Indians still believe in asking for assistance if not able to solve the problem rather than trying to copy the working model. We are slow and not making equivalent progress, however when we move a inch forward, it is hard earned.

you do realize that china plan isn't to copy forever, to be able to create new things one need to be at world levels first. you may think its great that india does things the "old fashion" way but i believe china way is very efficient, learn what you can from the outside before attempting something new and china wants nothing less than #1.
 
I hail and admire the China's capability to absorb the technology and reproducing it rapidly. I am sure within a decade, China will be indepandent in the defence and other technology sector.

However, having said that, I still prefer evolution over emulation. It is slow and demanding, but most advantageous. No country can be on top forever. It was west and Russia for long, now asian countries surging ahead.

Russians have contributed so much in the field of science and technology, copying the products will not take anything from them. Since they know all the mistakes they made to accomplish that which if someone just simply copy would never know. Learning from mistakes brings maturity and you evolve.

I am happy that Indians still believe in asking for assistance if not able to solve the problem rather than trying to copy the working model. We are slow and not making equivalent progress, however when we move a inch forward, it is hard earned.



People like you use the word "copy" so casually that it almost sounds identical as taking a booklet to photocopy machine when one just needs to put it on top of it , press a button, then we have a copy.

There are many threads already here in PDF where we have repeatedly debunked this dumbfounded idea of "copying". There is no such a thing as making a copy in highly sophisticated technologies such as advanced military weapon systems and in most other similar businesses as well, but reverse-engineering. I am tired of trying to correct newbies on this. :hitwall:


I don't know what you do for living, but if I give you a simple computer mouser, can you make an exact "copy" of it only by yourself in your own house within 2 years? or 5 years? No fu**ing way!

To "copy" the mouser exactly, you need a series of industrialised standard tools and materials which you will never get, unless you yourself re-invent all the machines and materials needed ( like what China did).

It looks simple, but for sure that neither you nor I can even make a simple " copy " of a computer mouser, now imagine if I tell you go make copy of a computer itself, or in this case go make a copy of the naval version of Su 27. :lol:

See the point? The day when you really made a copy of Su-27 all by yourself in your own garage is the day when you have already owned a series of world class machine tool factories, materials design factories, computerised design houses, electronic factories, even industrial -grade glass factory for that cockpit only, along with many other related industries, hundreds or more specialised production knowhow and IP rights, etc, etc, all developed by yourself in your own garage! Just imagine that magnitute then you will start to fully realise how different it is from "copy" , and what does "copy" process really means together with its real implications.

Now imagine if I give you several close-up photos of F-22A Raptor, how insane would that be if someone suggests you to make a real life "copy" of it? :cheesy: But it is indeed what China is doing right now for her J-XX to a certain extent ! See the significance?

Again, there is no such a thing as making a "copy" as if flipping fingers here , only reverse-engineering through re-inventing (since no one will teach you how and you have to figure out all the intricate details by yourself, alone), which in fact is a stunning level of innovation process in its own right.

That's why reverse-engineering is so different from so called "copying", and so difficult the very process is.

That's why only a handful countries in this world ( usually UNSC 5 : USA, Russia/China, France, UK , along with Germany and Japan in some cases) really have immense industrial muscles and knowhow to really do reverse-engineering at the highest levels as China is doing right now.

That's why even in cases where no one would sue India for doing it, India still is not able to do the reverse-engineering, or call it in your layman's term "copying", simplely because it can not. No excuses.
 
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People like you use the word "copy" so casually that it almost sounds identical as taking a booklet to photocopy machine when one just needs to put it on top of it , press a button, then we have a copy.


Yes it is identical. If a final product is exactly identical to the product then it is called "copy". You can give it any glorified name however it will remain a copy.

There are many threads already here in PDF where we have repeatedly debunked this dumbfounded idea of "copying". There is no such a thing as making a copy in highly sophisticated technologies such as advanced military weapon systems and in most other similar businesses as well, but reverse-engineering. I am tired of trying to correct newbies on this. :hitwall:


It doesn't matter how big or small systems are, if the intention is to produce an exact replica without taking permission from an owner, then it is copying. Keep correcting the "newbies" but you never know one of these newbie is a scientist and working on defence research projects.



I don't know what you do for living, but if I give you a simple computer mouser, can you make an exact "copy" of it only by yourself in your own house within 2 years? or 5 years? No fu**ing way!

To "copy" the mouser exactly, you need a series of industrialised standard tools and materials which you will never get, unless you yourself re-invent all the machines and materials needed ( like what China did).

It looks simple, but for sure that neither you nor I can even make a simple " copy " of a computer mouser, now imagine if I tell you go make copy of a computer itself, or in this case go make a copy of the naval version of Su 27. :lol:

See my first post then you will know what I do or check introduction.

It is very easy to copy mouser, as you already said one need to have access for tools and more importantly money.

Chinese government spending billions for that and it is doing for several decades and now they have perfected the art of copying. As I wrote before it is a superb capability and requires great technical capabilities. However the end product is unfortunatly a "copy".

See the point? The day when you really made a copy of Su-27 all by yourself in your own garage is the day when you have already owned a series of world class machine tool factories, materials design factories, computerised design houses, electronic factories, even industrial -grade glass factory for that cockpit only, along with many other related industries, hundreds or more specialised production knowhow and IP rights, etc, etc, all developed by yourself in your own garage! Just imagine that magnitute then you will start to fully realise how different it is from "copy" , and what does "copy" process really means together with its real implications..


It seems you got confused between a person and a nation willing to be #1 in technology by copying.

We are not talking about me or you here or our garage. It is countries we are talking about. If someone have thousands of capable engineers/scientists working for them with virtually unlimited money, well give these things to any country and a original product, they will have their copy sooner or later.

Now imagine if I give you several close-up photos of F-22A Raptor, how insane would that be if someone suggests you to make a real life "copy" of it? :cheesy: But it is indeed what China is doing right now for her J-XX to a certain extent ! See the significance?

Are we talking about copying from photos? Yes. Provide one production model of F-22A/P and then Why not?? It will take time, billions of dollors and thousands of manpower. Country like China with proven track record of succesful copying could do it.


Again, there is no such a thing as making a "copy" as if flipping fingers here , only reverse-engineering through re-inventing (since no one will teach you how and you have to figure out all the intricate details by yourself, alone), which in fact is a stunning level of innovation process in its own right.

That's why reverse-engineering is so different from so called "copying", and so difficult the very process is.

That's why only a handful countries in this world ( usually UNSC 5 : USA, Russia/China, France, UK , along with Germany and Japan in some cases) really have immense industrial muscles and knowhow to really do reverse-engineering at the highest levels as China is doing right now.

That's why even in cases where no one would sue India for doing it, India still is not able to do the reverse-engineering, or call it in your layman's term "copying", simplely because it can not. No excuses.


And who said copying complex technical systems are like fliping fingers? It takes immense talent to understant and reproduce each and every component. As you pointed out that very few countries have industrial capabilitis to do reverse engineering but only one country "China" is using this capability for "Copying". As a matter of fact the Chinese industry is so much "evolved" in copying that you can see chinese copies of everything (i've seen
copy of Ipad too). Impressive industrial development.


You are correct India cannot do copying. It is evident with some defence projects cost is decades of time and billions of dollars. Else we would have diverted this money to build up facilities to study one of the available fighters and then produce an illigal copy of those, however they decided to work in old fashion way of R&D and no wonder they were not successful 100% as in case if other countries who chose R&D path.

As far as reverse engineering is concern, it is well known fact that INS Arihant nuclear sub is built after doing reverse engineering studies of russian Charlie class nuclear sub. The only difference between India and China here is that we did not produced copy of Charlie sub. If western countries can do it, so can eastern countries. If Chinese can copy it, then Indian or any other county.
It is the matter of money, manpower and government policies what they want.

Either being No.1 in short period of time by copying others hard work or choosing to do hard work themselves and face the bitter faliures time to time and trying to improve it.

Every country chooses their own path. Your country have chosen one, so as mine.

Best of luck for both !!

:china:
1465.gif
 
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