China's Island Building and International Law

[StarCraft_ZT]

What international law? I don't know.

China is the law.

 

[kyle Chiang]

That's because you do not even understand basic legal precepts. The term "legal binding" is a basic legal terminology and the UNCLOS legal documemts do not need to mention such basic convention. Any lawyer with basic knowledge in law can interpret that from those legal documents.

When did I say the tribunal has already made a legally binding decision? It is still an ongoing process. I said if the Philippines win it's arbitration case, then it will become legally binding, but not enforced.



The problem is that China dont want to clarify that 2006 clause. All the press statements made by Chinese officials so far are quite ambiguous. They just simply said the Philippines case is not valid and ignore it. China dont want to talk too much details about the UNCLOS jurisdiction because they might need it for the Diaoyudao dispute later on.

China has explained for thousand of times in details.But nobody want to understand,and actually western medias didn't want to broadcast Chinese points.If you want to know more about Chinese standpoints,you could search some videos of Chinese officers' statements especially in UN or some big stages.

And we really don't want to make noise in world range,we just appeal to bilateral dialogue.

UNCLOS can't solve this problems at all if you really comprehend it.Strictly speaking,international engagement ≠ law,the authority of it is under the domestic basic law.International engagement can be only used in international area,but not national range.When I was child, I have had the naive thought that UN rules all countries.

If we take this issue to international arbitration,it will become a public opinion warfare and of course China will under more pressure (no matther whatever,whenever,whenever,USA,Japan,ect will support PH because they are alliance) and China will be caught in prolonged run with PH.At last,no decision will be respected or carried out as well.If It says PH belongs to China,will PH follow?Even UN can't decide authority problem.

So,calling for international arbitration is just a politic trick for getting domestic support and match up America's Asia strategy.China will not waste much time for it.

Only bilateral negotiations will help PH to solve problems with China.However,PH don't want to take negotiations,so we feel so grateful to Aquino's great strategy to help China improve power in South-China sea,the energy throat of China and many east-Asian countries.PH has only get some second-hand little warships.

 

[Huaren]

Its quite funny to watch the pathetic attempt of somebody desperately trying to claim moral high ground while covering up their own greed (like everybody else involved) and most importantly lack of capabilities.

China has explained for thousand of times in details.But nobody want to understand,and actually western medias didn't want to broadcast Chinese points.If you want to know more about Chinese standpoints,you could search some videos of Chinese officers' statements especially in UN or some big stages.

And we really don't want to make noise in world range,we just appeal to bilateral dialogue.

UNCLOS can't solve this problems at all if you really comprehend it.Strictly speaking,international engagement ≠ law,the authority of it is under the domestic basic law.International engagement can be only used in international area,but not national range.When I was child, I have had the naive thought that UN control all countries.

If we take this issue to international arbitration,it will become a public opinion warfare and of course China will under more pressure (no matther whatever,whenever,whenever,USA,Japan,ect will support PH because they are alliance) and China will be caught in prolonged run with PH.At last,no decision will be respected or carried out as well.If It says PH belongs to China,will PH follow?Even UN can't decide authority problem.

So,calling for international arbitration is just a politic trick for getting domestic support and match up America's Asia strategy.China will not waste much time for it.

Only bilateral negotiations will help PH to solve problems with China.However,PH don't want to take negotiations,so we feel so grateful to Aquino's great strategy to help China improve power in South-China sea,the energy throat of China and many east-Asian countries.PH has only get some second-hand little warships.

Quite right nobody "wants to" understand because they are greedy and want claim things they neither own nor capable of holding / building up, even on the international stage there are those who expect free meals or let others do their work instead. China has already taken hard lesson of how reliable others could be when china was weak, but apparantly some others never left the kindergarten.

 

[William Hung]

That's a whole load of waffle.

You already agreed that it is worthless.

I only said it is worthless in the sense that they can't enforce their ruling. But it could cause other countries to raise an eyebrow if China has agreed to a convention but then turn around and reject it's ruling. Lastly, if it is worthless, then why did China bothered to raise the Diaoyudao dispute against Japan to the UNCLOS back in 2012?

And it is not legally binding,

Nothing is legally binding now, because the tribunal has made no ruling yet. Once they have made their ruling, whether it's against China or against the Philippines, it will become legally binding.

unless you can somehow see the future and say that they will somehow find jurisdiction.

I've never claim that the Philippines will win or lose their case. All my question has been "If the Philippines win... "

Also, what do you think about my summary of what you've said in this thread?

1. China's claim to sovereignty only depends on domestic law, not on international law.

2. If international law rules against China, then China will simply ignore it because China only cares about domestic law.

3. China do not follow international law.

4. Even though China is signatory to UNCLOS, any potential rulings from UNCLOS against China will be ignored because no one can enforce it.

Am I wrong? or do you want to go and edit all your posts again?

As for American help, ask where was America when China seized the Scarborough shoal from the Philippines in 2012?

They don't care at all. They probably forgot what Scarborough is already. The only thing that happened after that was the US government came to China, and asked us to loan them more money again.

I dont know what the American will do. That thread was based on an article of a PhD guy. I, myself was surprised by his opinion. You can email him to dispute it.

One thing it might turn out though.... If the tribunal ruled against China and China decides to ignore it, then the US will have a higher moral ground if they do decide to intervene.

After all, one guy has broken a convention it has agreed to, and the other guy is intervening on behalf of another smaller guy to enforce an international legal ruling.

 

[William Hung]

What international law? I don't know.

China is the law.

Thanks for your honest opinion and not trying to beat around the bush like other people. Thumps up for you.

China has explained for thousand of times in details.But nobody want to understand,and actually western medias didn't want to broadcast Chinese points.If you want to know more about Chinese standpoints,you could search some videos of Chinese officers' statements especially in UN or some big stages.

And we really don't want to make noise in world range,we just appeal to bilateral dialogue.

UNCLOS can't solve this problems at all if you really comprehend it.Strictly speaking,international engagement ≠ law,the authority of it is under the domestic basic law.International engagement can be only used in international area,but not national range.When I was child, I have had the naive thought that UN rules all countries.

If we take this issue to international arbitration,it will become a public opinion warfare and of course China will under more pressure (no matther whatever,whenever,whenever,USA,Japan,ect will support PH because they are alliance) and China will be caught in prolonged run with PH.At last,no decision will be respected or carried out as well.If It says PH belongs to China,will PH follow?Even UN can't decide authority problem.

So,calling for international arbitration is just a politic trick for getting domestic support and match up America's Asia strategy.China will not waste much time for it.

Only bilateral negotiations will help PH to solve problems with China.However,PH don't want to take negotiations,so we feel so grateful to Aquino's great strategy to help China improve power in South-China sea,the energy throat of China and many east-Asian countries.PH has only get some second-hand little warships.

The root of the problem is that the CCP has ratified the UNCLOS in 1996. If they were smart and think more long-term like the US, then they would reject the UNCLOS.

Its quite funny to watch the pathetic attempt of somebody desperately trying to claim moral high ground while covering up their own greed (like everybody else involved) and most importantly lack of capabilities.

It's not so much about other people trying to gain the higher moral ground. It's about China ratifying the UNCLOS and potentially lower its moral by rejecting UNCLOS rulings.

Now keep in mind that I hightlighted the word "potentially." That's because no arbitration ruling has been made yet and we dont know yet it's outcome. If the ruling is in favour of China or the tribunal decide that it doesnt have any jurisdiction, then all is well for China.

If the arbitration ruling is in favour of the Philippines and China rejects it, then China will lose its moral ground.

So cross your fingers and hope that China will receive a favourable ruling from the tribunal. Good luck my friend.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

It's not so much about other people trying to gain the higher moral ground. It's about China ratifying the UNCLOS and potentially lower its moral by rejecting UNCLOS rulings.

Now keep in mind that I hightlighted the word "potentially." That's because no arbitration ruling has been made yet and we dont know yet it's outcome. If the ruling is in favour of China or the tribunal decide that it doesnt have any jurisdiction, then all is well for China.

If the arbitration ruling is in favour of the Philippines and China rejects it, then China will lose its moral ground.

So cross your fingers and hope that China will receive a favourable ruling from the tribunal. Good luck my friend.

That's the great thing about this worthless "arbitration".

Doesn't matter if we win, or if we lose. We have it, and unless someone wants to fight a nuclear war with us, we will keep having it.

America already abandoned the Philippines when we seized Scarborough shoal in 2012, they literally don't care at all. Hell they actually increased economic cooperation with us after that.

 

[William Hung]

That's the great thing about this worthless "arbitration".

Doesn't matter if we win, or if we lose. We have it, and unless someone wants to fight a nuclear war with us, we will keep having it.

America already abandoned the Philippines when we seized Scarborough shoal in 2012, they literally don't care at all. Hell they actually increased economic cooperation with us after that.

Thank you for your honest words my friend.

One last question I promise:

So it was worthless for Chinese officials to bring the Diaoyudao dispute to UNCLOS back in 2012?

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

Thank you for your honest words my friend.

One last question I promise:

So it was worthless for Chinese officials to bring the Diaoyudao dispute to UNCLOS back in 2012?

These international arbitrations are worthless, but we can still put in a case to give us some extra diplomatic maneuverability (why not). What will be worth something is in 2025 when we finally raise our defence budget to the US/Russian percentage of GDP at around 5%.

And considering our base GDP will be so enormous by then, we will literally be able to outspend anyone in the region combined.

And it won't stop there, our defence budget will keep getting more enormous every year.

America and Russia have taught the world that with enough power, they can extend their own domestic law anywhere on the planet.

China is still a novice in comparison, but we do have some results. See that Vietnamese blogger who was arrested by his own Vietnamese government for saying bad things about China.

 

[kyle Chiang]

The root of the problem is that the CCP has ratified the UNCLOS in 1996. If they were smart and think more long-term like the US, then they would reject the UNCLOS.

I has illustrated clearly that the UNCLOS has no authority in solving this issue and calling for international arbitration is just a trick.

You really don't understand the difference between law and engagement,Moral rhetoric and international game.Too young too simple.

 

[Rechoice]

What international law? I don't know.

China is the law.

apply China law, US, Japan, Russia could divide China in to small pierce.

 

[William Hung]

These international arbitrations are worthless, but we can still put in a case to give us some extra diplomatic maneuverability (why not).

Do you think the ongoing arbitration case could provide the Philippines some extra diplomatic maneuverability?

What will be worth something is in 2025 when we finally raise our defence budget to the US/Russian percentage of GDP at around 5%.

And considering our base GDP will be so enormous by then, we will literally be able to outspend anyone in the region combined.

And it won't stop there, our defence budget will keep getting more enormous every year.

America and Russia have taught the world that with enough power, they can extend their own domestic law anywhere on the planet.

Sounds nice. I wish you and China all the best for your future endeavours.

China is still a novice in comparison

I think so too, especially in the diplomatic and international relation arena. I wake up every morning and I ask myself, is life worth living? why can't I be the CCP general secretary?

I would have taken over the world by now if I was Xi. But hey, thats just the way it is.

See that Vietnamese blogger who was arrested by his own Vietnamese government for saying bad things about China.

I dont know man, you'll have to ask the Viet members about this. I miss @NiceGuy though, I hope hes OK.

 

[Huaren]

See that Vietnamese blogger who was arrested by his own Vietnamese government for saying bad things about China.

Its his own fault, if you are viet and want to rant about china you should at least do it outside of vietland for safety, like many viets in forum are doing right now. See how they are free to glorify their great nation by saying bad things about China - until the day they return home.

 

[William Hung]

I has illustrated clearly that the UNCLOS has no authority in solving this issue and calling for international arbitration is just a trick.

Yes, the UNCLOS do have authority because both China and the Philippines have ratified it's law. You have missed out on all my discussions with C-Dragon.

The bottom line is, it will all depends on the decision of the tribunal. If the tribunal decides that it does have jurisdiction over the dispute, and if it decide that the Philippines case are based on facts and laws, then the tribunal's arbitration ruling will be legally binding (but not enforced).

On the other hand, if the tribunal decide that it doesnt have any jurisdiction over the dispute, or if they rule against the Philippines, then that arbitration will be legally binding as well.

Right now, China say they dont have jurisdiction because those Islands are land and UNCLOS only deals with water. The Philippines say no, those "land" are only rocks and reefs so UNCLOS do have jurisdiction. China say our additional clause made in 2006 will exempt us from any arbitration ruling. The Philippines said no, that clause doesnt apply to the ongoing case.

So the tribunal will have to make a decision on this first, whether they have jurisdiction over the dispute or not. If they decide that they do have jurisdiction over it, then their arbitration will be legally binding. What you have is a two step procedure.

So you have to wait and see what their decisions are.

You can confirm this on the official UNCLOS website. They have Chinese translations.

Its his own fault, if you are viet and want to rant about china you should at least do it outside of vietland for safety, like many viets in forum are doing right now. See how they are free to glorify their great nation by saying bad things about China - until the day they return home.

But @BoQ77 and @Soryu and most other Viet members are currently living in VN.

 

[BoQ77]

Black, you are right. It seem that Vietnamese has more freedom to express their opinion, compare to Chinese of PRC.
We are living in Vietnam, and we could have opposing opinion.

The Blogger fled to USA with allowance of Vietnam govt where most of activists could be welcomed by Vietnamese community.

Vietnam and USA are dealing so many in secret.

 

[Huaren]

But @BoQ77 and @Soryu and most other Viet members are currently living in VN.

Of course you would believe anything they claim or say eventhough even they cant deny the fate of the "viet warrior" who have been "taken in" by their government, on the other hand it is quite common for many if not most nations on earth to tolerate nationalistic individuals spreading emotional messages, this has proven to be quite useful from time to times, although few nation would go as far as arresting those individual for such particular reason. On the bright side this only proves how efficient viet government is, use those warriors to raise nationalism and arrest them when neighbours are displeased, unlike anywhere else "patriots" in vietland is being used to maximum efficiency, truely they must be glad to serve their national interest in every way possible. who knows maybe they secretly will enjoy a luxurious life in prison as reward

Black, you are right. It seem that Vietnamese has more freedom to express their opinion, compare to Chinese of PRC.
We are living in Vietnam, and we could have opposing opinion.

The Blogger fled to USA with allowance of Vietnam govt where most of activists could be welcomed by Vietnamese community.

Vietnam and USA are dealing so many in secret.

lol lack of trust for your comerade and overconfidence for your government? I am sure such public slap in to face of keyboard patriots could be avoided by using other methods to deal with some particular individuals(if you believe them)