China won't 'relax' Taiwan's suppression

[Always Neutral]

Everyone knows "Taiwan problem" cause of China's civil war in 1949.Taiwan is a province of China.No one Chinese leader can take the responsibility of Taiwan independence.
One day an indian state wants to independence,I will be glad to hear "Well XXX definitly has more in say on its affairs than india"

I am not sure how you are calling Taiwan a renegade province of China. If you go by history then you will see from the below the first owners were Austronesian People and the last was Japan and the only reason its not a part of japan is because Japan lost world war 2, and China was promised Taiwan as a gift if the supported USA against Japan. Actually originally China were only intermediate owners like the Dutch !

Txt Begins

The island of Taiwan (excluding the Pescadores) was first populated by Austronesian people. It was colonised by the Dutch in the 17th century, followed by an influx of Han Chinese immigrants from areas of Fujian and Guangdong of China, across the Taiwan Strait. The Spanish also built a settlement in the north for a brief period, but were driven out by the Dutch in 1642. In 1662, Koxinga, a Ming Dynasty loyalist, defeated the Dutch and established a base of operations on the island. The Zheng forces were later defeated by the Qing Dynasty in 1683. The Qing Dynasty ruled Taiwan for two hundred years before it was ceded the island to Japan in 1895 following the First Sino-Japanese War. Taiwan produced rice and sugar to be exported to Japan and also served as a base for the Japanese colonial expansion into Southeast Asia and the Pacific during World War II. Japanese imperial education was implemented in Taiwan and many Taiwanese also fought for Japan during the war.

Following World War II, the Republic of China, under the Kuomintang (KMT) became the governing polity on Taiwan. In 1949, after losing its former territories following the Chinese civil war, the ROC government under the Kuomintang (KMT) withdrew to Taiwan. Japan formally renounced all territorial rights to Taiwan in 1952 in the San Francisco Peace Treaty. The KMT ruled Taiwan as a single-party state for forty years, until democratic reforms came were mandated during the final year of authoritarian rule under Chiang Ching-kuo. The reforms were promulgated under Chiang's successor, Lee Teng-hui, which culminated in the first ever direct presidential election in 1996. In 2000, Chen Shui-bian was elected the president, becoming the first non-KMT president on Taiwan

Text ends

That said I am curious why China has not taken it back by force like it did in Tibet at the same time in the 1950-60 ?

Regards

 

[kvLin]

I am not sure how you are calling Taiwan a renegade province of China. If you go by history then you will see from the below the first owners were Austronesian People and the last was Japan and the only reason its not a part of japan is because Japan lost world war 2, and China was promised Taiwan as a gift if the supported USA against Japan. Actually originally China were only intermediate owners like the Dutch !

Firstly it depends, Always Neutral,to whom you need to go by history. Would you call all the white Americans and Canadians back to England and France and leave only Injuns there? or how about vacating South Africa for black aboriginals? or think about whole Australia where British used to cast away the banished.

Second, If you trace the Taiwan history from Austronesian, you're just making a geographical error. the word Austronesia terms for islands unevenly distributed in middle and south Pacific ,such as Melanesia, Micronesia, Guam, Marshall, and Northern Mariana. Open a map of world centered on Pacific and you will locate Taiwan rightly at the tropic of cancer,mainly north to it, which basically doesn't stands for a concept of Austronesia. geographical position had made Austronesian an anabranch subject to Chinese main stream in Taiwan, if not absolutely cutting off the southern outflow.

welcome to the remote antiquity,Taiwan is distinctly sitting on the continental shelf which locates China. It was due to crustal subsidence that the strait came between mainland and the island. Respectively In 1971 and 1974, human fossils were found in Tainan County, dating the earliest culture in Taiwan,and the site is called "Left Town". archaeologists believe the Left Town people were derived from the mainland Fujian about 30,000 years ago, since the they share the same trait of Chinese Homo erectus with Qinliu People and Dongshan People, both belong to Paleolithic late Homo sapiens found in south China. In addition, few Negrito and loochoo ethnic liangqiao people were also early inhabitants of Taiwan, and now ancestors of several minorities there.

Now we can ease throught China's Three Kingdom era (A.D. 190-280),Sui dynasty(A.D.589-617),Song(960-1279),Yuan(1271-1368),Ming as well as Qing,each links to Taiwan in way of sorts, be my guest if you wanna research on a Taiwan part of Chinese history.

Txt Begins

The island of Taiwan (excluding the Pescadores) was first populated by Austronesian people. It was colonised by the Dutch in the 17th century, followed by an influx of Han Chinese immigrants from areas of Fujian and Guangdong of China, across the Taiwan Strait. The Spanish also built a settlement in the north for a brief period, but were driven out by the Dutch in 1642. In 1662, Koxinga, a Ming Dynasty loyalist, defeated the Dutch and established a base of operations on the island. The Zheng forces were later defeated by the Qing Dynasty in 1683. The Qing Dynasty ruled Taiwan for two hundred years before it was ceded the island to Japan in 1895 following the First Sino-Japanese War. Taiwan produced rice and sugar to be exported to Japan and also served as a base for the Japanese colonial expansion into Southeast Asia and the Pacific during World War II. Japanese imperial education was implemented in Taiwan and many Taiwanese also fought for Japan during the war.

Following World War II, the Republic of China, under the Kuomintang (KMT) became the governing polity on Taiwan. In 1949, after losing its former territories following the Chinese civil war, the ROC government under the Kuomintang (KMT) withdrew to Taiwan. Japan formally renounced all territorial rights to Taiwan in 1952 in the San Francisco Peace Treaty. The KMT ruled Taiwan as a single-party state for forty years, until democratic reforms came were mandated during the final year of authoritarian rule under Chiang Ching-kuo. The reforms were promulgated under Chiang's successor, Lee Teng-hui, which culminated in the first ever direct presidential election in 1996. In 2000, Chen Shui-bian was elected the president, becoming the first non-KMT president on Taiwan

Text ends

IMHO,You deserve a comprehensive history reading. highlighting doesn't make you convictive rather than truth.

That said I am curious why China has not taken it back by force like it did in Tibet at the same time in the 1950-60 ?

Regards

China tried and failed, PLA were at his best valiancy around 1949, yet sea-control operation remained unprecedente for the land giant, plus in lack of powerful vessels to cross the strait, over 10,000 spearheading troops lost on the beachhead under maladjusted tactics.
later on with the Korean war breaking out, PLA had to turn north and leave Taiwan a long term relief from the sitzkrieg. According to the disclassified documents, PLA's participation in Korean War were somewhat in allusion to the US 7th fleet which were sent to hold back PLA in the Taiwan strait. China,Taiwan and the US hanging out around a narrow strait, a balance has remained ever since and inherited by the status quo.

 

[kvLin]

And at the same time India refuses to send back dalailama.

Well actually China refuses his return on basic will. the guy is very old and looking homeward--all by his own choices, and no one complains if india would like to be his death bed.

notice what the Chinese Premier, Wen Jiabao, said in an interview to the Washington Post, on the Dalai Lama and Tibet in November 2003: "So long as he genuinely abandons his position on seeking Tibetan independence and publicly recognises Tibet and Taiwan as inalienable parts of Chinese territory, then contacts and discussions between him and the Central Government can resume. The door to communication between the Central Government and the Dalai Lama is wide open."

 

[Always Neutral]

Firstly it depends, Always Neutral,to whom you need to go by history. Would you call all the white Americans and Canadians back to England and France and leave only Injuns there? or how about vacating South Africa for black aboriginals? or think about whole Australia where British used to cast away the banished.

Dear Kv Lin,

No offense meant. What I quoted is from neutral history books but I agree with you in nearly in all instances the native people were always eliminated when new settlers came. My point is that you had a civil war and a few million defeated people crossed over to now called Taiwan
and set up their own country. China as it is called today was victorious at that time so if they really wanted to conquer a defeated army of Chiang Kai Shek all logic says they could have easily done it!

I suspect they never expected Taiwan to do so well (ofcourse with billions of US aid) and now donot need another Japan on their footsteps who are good friends of USA.

Finally what is the step forward ? Taiwan does not want re-unification though majority them also donot war with China.

How do you plan to take over Taiwan ? or are you happy if the present status quo remains for ever ?

Would appreciate your genuine views.

Regards

 

[Always Neutral]

[QUOTE=kvLin;77211]Firstly it depends, Always Neutral,to whom you need to go by history. Would you call all the white Americans and Canadians back to England and France and leave only Injuns there? or how about vacating South Africa for black aboriginals? or think about whole Australia where British used to cast away the banished.

Second, If you trace the Taiwan history from Austronesian, you're just making a geographical error. the word Austronesia terms for islands unevenly distributed in middle and south Pacific ,such as Melanesia, Micronesia, Guam, Marshall, and Northern Mariana. Open a map of world centered on Pacific and you will locate Taiwan rightly at the tropic of cancer,mainly north to it, which basically doesn't stands for a concept of Austronesia. geographical position had made Austronesian an anabranch subject to Chinese main stream in Taiwan, if not absolutely cutting off the southern outflow.

This is what history books hear say about the original settlers of Taiwan

Txt Begins

The Taiwanese Aborigines are Austronesian peoples closely related to the people of the Philippines.[1] Taiwan's Austronesian speakers were traditionally distributed over much of the island's rugged central mountain range and concentrated in villages along the alluvial plains. Today, the bulk of the contemporary Taiwanese Aborigine population reside in the mountains and the cities. The issue of an ethnic identity unconnected to the Asian mainland has become one thread in the discourse regarding the political identity of Taiwan. The total population of Aborigines on Taiwan is around 458,000 as of January 2006, (CIP 2006) which is approximately 2% of Taiwan's population.

For centuries Taiwan's Aboriginal peoples experienced economic competition and military conflict with a series of conquering peoples. As a result of these intercultural dynamics, as well as more dispassionate economic processes, many of these tribes have been linguistically and culturally assimilated. The result has been varying degrees of language death and loss of original cultural identity. For example, of the approximately 26 known languages of the Taiwanese Aborigines (collectively referred to as the Formosan languages), at least ten are extinct, another five are moribund (Zeitoun & Yu 2005:167) and several others are to some degree endangered. These languages are of unique historical significance, since most historical linguists consider Taiwan as the original homeland of the Austronesian language family (Blust 1999).

Today the indigenous peoples of Taiwan face economic and social barriers, including a high unemployment rate and substandard education. They have been actively seeking a higher degree of self-determination and economic development since the early 1980s. In 1996 the Council of Indigenous Peoples was promoted to a ministry-level rank within the Executive Yuan. A revival of ethnic pride has been expressed in many ways by aborigines, including incorporating elements of their culture into commercially successful pop music. Efforts are underway by indigenous communities to revive traditional cultural practices and preserve their languages.

Txt Ends

Just posted it to show you what the western world knows about Taiwan thats all.

Regards

 

[kvLin]

No, AN,I never mean to be offensive.

Respectively replace Txt begins by [ quote=someone you quote ] and Txt ends by [ /quote ], then you get proper excerpt.

I'm now at airport and will come back to you in the evening.

 

[kvLin]

Dear Kv Lin,

My point is that you had a civil war and a few million defeated people crossed over to now called Taiwan
and set up their own country.

As I said before that KMT used to be legally in power of whole China. Sun Yat-sen,the founder of KMT and first president of the Republic of China, has been respected as father of the nation both by KMT and Communist Party. Sun called for cooperations between the two parties in China and the they cooperated twice. the first(1924-1927) was against warlords, the second(1937-1946) against Japanese invasion and broke up in the end of WW2,when it's time to negotiate over a coalition government, then came civil war in late 1946.

In 1925,Sun's death switched China into a different orbit. Jiang Jieshi (you call him Chiang Kai Shek), his successor would not share victory of the joint revolution with CPC, and he rooted all communists out of the government,which caused the foundation of communistic PLA in 1927. Jiang did the same in 1945 to terminate the second cooperation which had been proposed by CPC. but this time CPC was much stronger than ever before,while Jiang,though with military forces 2 times bigger than PLA, was accused by most of the Chinese people as passive resistance during the past 14-year Japanese invasion.

Evidence shows that despite Jiang's passive resistance policy in early years of Japanese invasion (1931-1936), KMT army had confronted with main forces of the Japanese invader. However, Shanghai's fall and the Nanjing massacre was directly due to Jiang's pullout, and his reception of the second cooperation was actually forced by a kidnap by one of his general Zhang Xueliang in Dec,1936, known as "Xian incident". which impressed Chinese people so much and under Soviet influence in the same time, the main stream began to support CPC.

by now you may know why CPC could finally swept KMT out of mainland. after comprehensive defeat in the mainland,Jiang moved his government, the public purse as well as most collections in the Palace Museum over to Taiwan (Not establishing a new country in Taiwan). and in the rest of his year, he never gave up ambition of returning into power of entire China under the polity of Republic of China.

Jiang died in April 5th,1975. by now KMT is still a legal party both in mainland and Taiwan. but the difference is that KMT had lost power in Taiwan during the process of democracy,while CPC still masters the mainland China.

Will there be a third cooperation across the strait? we sincerely hope so.

China as it is called today was victorious at that time so if they really wanted to conquer a defeated army of Chiang Kai Shek all logic says they could have easily done it!
I suspect they never expected Taiwan to do so well (ofcourse with billions of US aid) and now donot need another Japan on their footsteps who are good friends of USA.

If they could, they would have done it before the Korean War. with or without protection of Taiwan by the US, PLA was not capable for any sea-control operation. the only difference is that without US existence at the strait (CPC government calls it US intervention), PLA would probably tried even harder despite the big loss in early 1950. (ref: Korean War broke out in June 1950)

Finally what is the step forward ? Taiwan does not want re-unification though majority them also donot war with China.

Speeding up democratization in the mainland, it's not easy but the current CPC government has already given a good sign by desalting communistic colors.

How do you plan to take over Taiwan ? or are you happy if the present status quo remains for ever ?

Economic colligation. visit Yangtze River delta (Shanghai, Jiangsu and Zhejiang) you will see that being well done.
More than 500000 Taiwan investors have move their family as well as properties over from Taiwan. those people are originally backbone of Taiwan society, and now they are not likely to support Taiwan independence. and that's why Chen Shuibian had to issue a law to restrict those kind of people from moving their industrial barycenter to the mainland.

Actually you didn't ask about the missiles targeting Taiwan, it is a threat, but nothing more, since every Chinese recognise Taiwan as part of China, none of the governmental administration would by any means dare a whole nation over the consensus. what in the government's hand is an one way ticket,while missile is actually their guarantee.
Missile might be stupid, but what if Chen suddenly forces into independence (during 2008 Olympics,for example, and that's a knotty problem) and the US acquiesces? peacefully call for international sympathy or get missiles deployed ex post facto all in a panic?
your island will be gone for good.

I won't be happy if the status quo remains for ever, though I'm not upset it is still out there.

 

[Always Neutral]

As I said before that KMT used to be legally in power of whole China. Sun Yat-sen,the founder of KMT and first president of the Republic of China, has been respected as father of the nation both by KMT and Communist Party. Sun called for cooperations between the two parties in China and the they cooperated twice. the first(1924-1927) was against warlords, the second(1937-1946) against Japanese invasion and broke up in the end of WW2,when it's time to negotiate over a coalition government, then came civil war in late 1946.

Dear KvLin,

Thank you for taking the time to reply. A very informative post and I am saving the same for future reference. I agree with you that Chiang Kai Sheik as we know him always claimed he was the real China for many years actively supported by USA and others as they probably wanted to defeat communism taking roots in China. I agree the missiles aimed at Taiwan are just a tool of modern day diplomacy and I have read numerous articles on how many Taiwanese are investing in China given the availablity of land and ready trained people something which is at a premium in Taiwan.

The only stumbling block in the re-unification is I think the US influence in Taiwan. However even China is rapidly changing politically and hard core Communism has changed to a mix of Communism and capitalism so the differences between Taiwan and China are becomming narrower. Who knows in the far future they may merge or China may recognise Taiwan. After all who thought that the Berlin wall will fall but it did.

Regards

 

[gpit]

Actually China Belongs to Taiwan, it is the other way around my friend.
I dont taiwan has ever made students kill their teachers, and kids their parents.

It doesn't matter who belongs to whom. What matters is there is only one China, and mainland and Taiwan both belong to China. I hope it is clear enough now to all of you!

 

[gpit]

yes you'r true government, PRC is no less than a dictatorship.

Why does India government recognize a dictatorship government as the legal government over China, if it doesn't love dictatorship?

 

[gpit]

Sovjet Union and the Berlin Wall have gone, just a matter of time mate and China will follow suit.
How long, no one can tell but I'm shure both you and I'll witness the change in our lives.

You guys need to study more. CCP is different from Soviet union and its clone in Germney.

There will be evolution in China, not revolution, in that matter.

 

[gpit]

And at the same time India refuses to send back dalailama.

In stopping short to call India hypocrisy by said evidence, I believe India has paid a lot for being hijacked by Dalai.

Two sticky points in India-China relationships: 1) territory dispute, 2) India's support of Dalai's split of China. Period.

 

[gpit]

Dear KvLin,

Thank you for taking the time to reply. A very informative post and I am saving the same for future reference. I agree with you that Chiang Kai Sheik as we know him always claimed he was the real China for many years actively supported by USA and others as they probably wanted to defeat communism taking roots in China. I agree the missiles aimed at Taiwan are just a tool of modern day diplomacy and I have read numerous articles on how many Taiwanese are investing in China given the availablity of land and ready trained people something which is at a premium in Taiwan.

The only stumbling block in the re-unification is I think the US influence in Taiwan. However even China is rapidly changing politically and hard core Communism has changed to a mix of Communism and capitalism so the differences between Taiwan and China are becomming narrower. Who knows in the far future they may merge or China may recognise Taiwan. After all who thought that the Berlin wall will fall but it did.

Regards

Mainland and Taiwan issue is China vs US, nothing else.

Rival factors involved are wisdom, gun size, monetary strength, governance preference, feeling of belonging, living standard, etc.

China has being marching along on this no-return road forward, since this matters China's CORE national interest. However, it is not necessarily for US to do so.

Americans are very realistic. They won't try to sustain a business that looses money for long. Vietnam was the example in the past and Iraq will be in the future. Believe or not, they will pull out Iraq shortly after Bush's term, and it doesn't matter how democratic or undemocratic then Iraq will be. Remember US toppled numerous democratic countries before.

 

[Always Neutral]

Why does India government recognize a dictatorship government as the legal government over China, if it doesn't love dictatorship?

Dear Gpit,

Your post is not clear do you mean China or Taiwan is a dictatorship Govt ?

Regards

 

[kvLin]

It's simple AN, dictatorship in the mainland while democracy in Taiwan, Hongkong and Macau.

an obvious fact exists that dictatorship in the mainland is not as bad as expected (besides a must for democracy in the future),equally democracy in Taiwan not as good as expected (revealable immaturity has been making political jokes by daily rough-ups).

The Taiwan issue is absolutely China vs US. China stands against 911 atrocity and the US shut up TIM leader's (Taiwan Independence Movement )mouth. sarcastically Chen Shuibian looks even too underweight to participate in talks over the strait.


The US acts like a solid keeper of the status quo, now if we put aside possibilities of Mainland invasion and the Taiwan independence, the only question is, will the US hold with a peaceful unification of China? strategically, I doubt it.