China Wins First Orders for Plane, Breaking Airbus-Boeing Grip

[Abu Zolfiqar]

You're not wrong. It's an enormously complicated industry, with razor-thin margins. Airlines (and aircraft makers) can fail on seemingly minor issues. Creative bookkeeping helps

it's one industry I wouldnt want to be an executive in! Too many variable costs for comfort. Especially in European markets where workers will be happy to go on strike with the flick of a match. Those pesky labour unions!

Then again, I look at examples like Southwestern Airlines which is a success story --perhaps partly due to their unique corporate culture and low job turnover rates. I think they do charge for food, drink and lavatory usage on domestic flights though (correct me if i'm wrong)

if such a meaures were introduced in Pakistan ---the people would throw a hissy-fit and tantrum in no time --especially on the charging money for food/drink on domestic flights part

 

[Chogy]

What people don't realize is that the price of a ticket is as low as it has ever been in the history of the industry, even adjusting for inflation. People gripe about lack of service, no food, tight seats, the nickle-and-dime mentality these days. But people vote with their wallet. They get on line, and if a ticket from New York to London is $2 cheaper on "Cheapskate Air" they'll buy that ticket.

As a result, airlines have done whatever it takes to make that ticket cheaper. You get what you pay for.

30 years ago, men traveled in suits and ties. Women had beautiful dresses and white gloves. Steak was served.

Today, men wear wife-beater shirts, with hairy backs and big tattoos exposed. Women wear skank clothing and rubber flip-flops. Some people don't bother with deodorant. Others get drunk and start fights. More use Xanax because they are fearful flyers and then strip naked and run around the airplane.

There was a famous case where a guy took a dump in a food service cart because he was angry. I have hundreds of horror stories. It's a sad state of affairs these days.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

left a deuce in the cart LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL. How 'colorful'


here's a nightmare for you

 

[prototype]

Ok the model looks good,though i dont know its specification's and it is to early to predict about its success,but if it become a success i will definitely like to see some planes under the logo of Air India ,Jet and kingfisher airlines.

i think this planes must b cheaper than Boeing and Airbus thus purchasing it will make sense for some of the loose making Indian airlines.

 

[Ganga]

Commercial Aircraft Corp. of China (Comac) now aims to deliver its first ARJ21 regional jet toward the end of next year, representing another one-year delay in the program.

It had been aiming to have first deliveries by the end of this year, but Comac director general airworthiness management department, Zhao Yuerang, says they aim to finish the flight test program in April and the supplemental ground tests in June.

“At the end of next year, we will complete (Civil Aviation Administration of China) type certification and have first delivery,” he says. Zhao was speaking at the China International Aviation and Aerospace Forum on Nov. 15 in Zhuhai.

The ARJ21 has experienced several delays over the years. Previous delays were caused by weight issues and difficulties with systems integration.

But the latest delay is due to structural issues. Industry sources say the ARJ21’s wing broke, during static testing before achieving ultimate predicted load. The wing’s failure then led the Civil Aviation Administration of China (CAAC) to limit the aircraft’s flight envelope during its flight test program.

The sources say the structural issue has since been resolved because Comac has redesigned the aircraft’s wing to make it stronger. The CAAC has responded by restoring the flight envelope to its fullest, add the sources.

Chengdu Airlines, in which Comac is a major shareholder, is to be the launch operator. Chengdu placed an order for 30 ARJ21s after Comac bought into the airline. The launch operator was originally supposed to be Shandong Airlines, but it decided to delay taking delivery of the Chinese-built regional aircraft. Shenzhen Airlines’ Kunpeng Airlines was next in line to be the launch operator, but it handed that mantle to Chengdu.

The ARJ21-700 is a 90-seat regional jet powered by two, fuselage-mounted General Electric CF34-10A engines.

China is hoping that once the ARJ21 receives Chinese certification, it will get FAA certification, making it the first Chinese commercial transport aircraft to receive U.S. approval. The FAA has agreed in-principle to embark on a shadow certification, which involves ensuring the CAAC certification process is in line with FAA standards.

Passing the shadow certification process would make it easier for the ARJ21 to get FAA certification. Having FAA certification would help Comac to sell the aircraft overseas.

Comac has sold the ARJ21 mostly to Chinese airlines. Its foreign customers are GE Commercial Aviation Services and the Laos Government. Laos is a political ally of China. GE is providing the engines for the ARJ21.

ARJ21 Wing Problems Drive Program Delay | AVIATION WEEK

 

[Nomenclature]

Commercial Aircraft Corp. of China (Comac) now aims to deliver its first ARJ21 regional jet toward the end of next year, representing another one-year delay in the program.

It had been aiming to have first deliveries by the end of this year, but Comac director general airworthiness management department, Zhao Yuerang, says they aim to finish the flight test program in April and the supplemental ground tests in June.

“At the end of next year, we will complete (Civil Aviation Administration of China) type certification and have first delivery,” he says. Zhao was speaking at the China International Aviation and Aerospace Forum on Nov. 15 in Zhuhai.

The ARJ21 has experienced several delays over the years. Previous delays were caused by weight issues and difficulties with systems integration.

But the latest delay is due to structural issues. Industry sources say the ARJ21’s wing broke, during static testing before achieving ultimate predicted load. The wing’s failure then led the Civil Aviation Administration of China (CAAC) to limit the aircraft’s flight envelope during its flight test program.

The sources say the structural issue has since been resolved because Comac has redesigned the aircraft’s wing to make it stronger. The CAAC has responded by restoring the flight envelope to its fullest, add the sources.

Chengdu Airlines, in which Comac is a major shareholder, is to be the launch operator. Chengdu placed an order for 30 ARJ21s after Comac bought into the airline. The launch operator was originally supposed to be Shandong Airlines, but it decided to delay taking delivery of the Chinese-built regional aircraft. Shenzhen Airlines’ Kunpeng Airlines was next in line to be the launch operator, but it handed that mantle to Chengdu.

The ARJ21-700 is a 90-seat regional jet powered by two, fuselage-mounted General Electric CF34-10A engines.

China is hoping that once the ARJ21 receives Chinese certification, it will get FAA certification, making it the first Chinese commercial transport aircraft to receive U.S. approval. The FAA has agreed in-principle to embark on a shadow certification, which involves ensuring the CAAC certification process is in line with FAA standards.

Passing the shadow certification process would make it easier for the ARJ21 to get FAA certification. Having FAA certification would help Comac to sell the aircraft overseas.

Comac has sold the ARJ21 mostly to Chinese airlines. Its foreign customers are GE Commercial Aviation Services and the Laos Government. Laos is a political ally of China. GE is providing the engines for the ARJ21.

ARJ21 Wing Problems Drive Program Delay | AVIATION WEEK

Design of ARJ21's wings was originally outsourced to Antonov. Now apparently they found a structural weakness with Antonov's design and Comac had to fix the problem themselves. What does this prove, huh?

And don't judge C919 by performance of ARJ21. ARJ21 was done before the establishment of COMAC and basically done by AVIC with civilian aviation engineers. C919 is from beginning a COMAC project, led by engineers with military aircraft background (which tend to be more experienced than China's civilian aircraft designers).

That's probably one of the reasons we ain't hearing much about China's large military aircraft development, because best engineers had been transferred to C919 project.

 

[CardSharp]

I have been in the airline biz for many years. I don't know anything about this aircraft, but from an economic standpoint, there are certain fundamental operating parameters that are absolutely critical for a jet to be a success.

#1 by far is fuel economy. A passenger jet can look nice, but if the fuel flow per passenger/seat-mile is even 3% greater than the competitor, it will cost a large airline hundreds of millions of dollars of lost revenue per year.

Example: The MD-80 (stretched DC-9) is a very popular jet, but also fairly old. It carries about 140 people. Fuel flow in cruise is ~ 6,200 pounds per hour. The new 737-800 carries 160 people, and fuel flow is ~ 4,400 pounds per hour. The savings in fuel are enormous. To get this efficiency requires some extremely advanced engines. There isn't much left in terms of lowering aerodynamic drag - what we see today is about as good as it's going to get.

#2 is maintenance. These jets get used HARD. It is typical for one to fly 10 to 14 hours a day, 7 days a week, for months on end. The maintenance needs to be infrequent, and simple to execute.

It is too early to tell with this jet until more is known.

All fair and cogent points, and given that China is new to the game, it has plenty of mistakes to make, but there's no easy way of getting to the game, journey of a 1000 steps starts with the first etc etc.

 

[CardSharp]

Don't try to make this an India China thread.I was just expressing my viewpoint.If you don't believe then do some research on your own and you will understand.Frankly speaking i do not care what China makes .But i hate it when people just reproduce an already existing machine and give it another name.

Look if you read Chogy's post carefully you'll understand why aeroplane shape hasn't changed.

Example: The MD-80 (stretched DC-9) is a very popular jet, but also fairly old. It carries about 140 people. Fuel flow in cruise is ~ 6,200 pounds per hour. The new 737-800 carries 160 people, and fuel flow is ~ 4,400 pounds per hour. The savings in fuel are enormous. To get this efficiency requires some extremely advanced engines. There isn't much left in terms of lowering aerodynamic drag - what we see today is about as good as it's going to get.

There isn't much in terms of aerodynamic efficiency to be gained from changing the shape of an jet liner. This means there is just going to be very little deviation from what planes look like already.

Think before you put fingers to keys nexttime

 

[Abhishek_]

@Ganga..Keep Quiet. You'd be beating the India superpower drums if India had made this. learn to give credit where it is due.

On-topic. Hearty congrats to Chinese engineers, one more milestone, a lot more to come.

 

[TechLahore]

Keen to see this in PIA, Air Blue, Shaheen, etc. livery.

 

[Nomenclature]

I'm curious if the development of C919 is successful, will it revive the debate on an 'air force one' type presidential jet for the president and premier?

Right now Hu and Wen flies on commercial jets operated by Air China. About 10 years ago, Jiang Zemin ordered a Boeing 767 as his presidential jet which created a lot of controversy about wasteful government spending. Later it became a national joke when the delivered jet was found with 20+ bugging devices. Jiang was forced to give up his 'air force one' dream and the plane was later converted to regular commercial use.

Hu and Wen with their populist images never put forward plans for a presidential jet, which is wise of them. With the commencing of the C919 project, it automatically becomes the only possible choice for a future presidential jet, I wonder what will Xi Jinping and Li Keqiang do. Ordering a C919 as the presidential jet will be a huge vote of confidence for COMAC, but if any incident happens China will become the laughing stock of the world and we'll have no chance in large jet market for the next 30 years.

In 2000 the public opinion was decidedly against the idea of a presidential jet, will this change in say, 2020? If in 2020 government says we're still too poor to have an airliner just for national leaders, will the public support this stance or will it be seen as lack of confidence in C919?

 

[Hulk]

Good job China, looks really good.

Also for people who are saying it looks exactly like ABC, it does not matter buddy. The aircraft can carry passengers that is it's prime function, it does not matter how it looks. To being with everybody creates copies and later they can be innovative.

You cannot take 10th step without taking the first.

 

[PakSher]

Pakistan needs to seriously evaluate this aircraft, since China has been the most reliable partner and friend for cooperating with us in all civilian and defence sectors.

Chinese aviation industry has also come a long way and needs a pat on the back. Pakistan needs to diversify civilian aircraft procurement for both economic and strategic reasons. All Pakistani airlines need to evaluate this aircraft and the process can be initiated with our Chinese counterparts on a priority basis.

 

[Chogy]

I didn't mean to come off negative. It is a tremendous achievement, and as I mentioned, the reason it isn't done more is both technical and financial. But a large country eventually reaches a point where "it's time," and the infrastructure and economy exists to make a competitive native product a reality.

You'll never see Lithuania or another smaller country making a large transport, as it is both financially unnecessary and in many cases, impossible, within the small economy.

While the aerodynamics of typical transports have peaked, there is a lot more $$ room left in weight savings with modern composites, and to a lesser extent, engine refinement. Weight savings is where Boeing is going with the 787.

One other consideration, which Airbus pioneered, is what is called a "common type rating." Pilots are rated by aircraft type. A guy typed in a 747 cannot legally fly a 737, as it is a different type, until he is trained and checked, and that can take a month. Very costly. Airbus worked on a common cockpit and procedures that allows a pilot to legally fly an entire family of aircraft. Boeing is playing catch-up with that concept, and the 787 should be a type-family with the 777; and they are considering retrofitting 737 to 767 to fall into that same type.

If the Chinese industry is smart, they will make all their civilian transport aircraft fit into this framework of a common type rating. It's hard to explain, more of a legal thing than anything, but the savings in training costs can be huge.

 

[unicorn]

Zhuhai10: Xian Aircraft gets orders for five MA600 turboprops
By Ghim-Lay Yeo

Xian Aircraft (XAC) has announced five orders for its MA600 turboprop aircraft at Airshow China.
In agreements signed today, the Laos government will purchase two MA600s, says a spokesman from the Aviation Industry Corporation of China, the parent of XAC.
Separately, Chinese carrier Joy Air will acquire three MA60s under a leasing agreement with AVIC Leasing.
The MA600 is an upgraded version of the MA60, and had its first flight in October 2008. XAC is also developing the MA700, which is being designed to compete with the ATR72-500.