China was never colonised. Why compare it's performance with newly independent countries?

[Kamikaze Pilot]

Be it war or be it economy, the comparison between China and India is not fair because India was under colonial rule for 200 years. Even a conservative guess would put the duration of colonialism at 150 years. Why else would there be revolt in 1857?

150-200 years of racist colonial rule can change the country beyond recognition. An example should drive home the point. When Abraham Lincoln was president, only half of what is now USA was controlled by Anglo-Saxons. By the turn of the century the vast territory was annexed by wiping out the native Americans who had established societies.

When the British left India, they didn't want orderly withdrawal. They left no stone unturned to create chaos.

1. British orchestrated partition on two fronts.

2. British orchestrated the partition violence.

3. The treaties which bound the princely states to the central government ceased to exist. It was left to Indian leaders to unite the country by persuasion or by force.

4. British created the Kashmir dispute by making suggestions to politicians and armies of India and Pakistan. I have heard that in 1948 war, the chiefs of the two armies - who were English - were in touch with each other throughout the war.

5. British handed over the reins of administration to impressionable men who were British agents till independence.

6. British issued discouraging and insulting statements about India's future.

China never faced such problems. China had military experience of fighting wars. In fact it was on expansionist spree annexing Tibet and laying claims to territories of countries like Bhutan. It was a permanent member of United Nations Security Council.

So clearly China had a head start in the competition.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

1. British orchestrated partition on two fronts.

But on the other hand they orchestrated integration on dozen fronts. No British. No India. Don't forget that. When British arrived there was no 'India'.

 

[nang2]

Of course China was. First, China was conquered by Mongolians. Before that, its northern part was largely colonized by northern nomadic tribes for extensive period of time. Later, China was conquered by Manchurian, which quickly colonized the whole country.

 

[nature is]

Of course China was. First, China was conquered by Mongolians. Before that, its northern part was largely colonized by northern nomadic tribes for extensive period of time. Later, China was conquered by Manchurian, which quickly colonized the whole country.

Imperial China, like any empire of that era, was no nation state. Various minorities lived under the realm of Chinese emperor. Manchus were subject of Ming dynasty, who later seized the throne by allying with another faction of Han Chinese. They claimed Chinese mandate of heaven, followed Chinese imperial system, culture and language. Colonizer imposed their system and culture, the other way round.


I have said it before, I'll said again. You're a false flag.

 

[nang2]

Imperial China, like any empire of that era, was no nation state. Various minorities lived under the realm of Chinese emperor. Manchus were subject of Ming dynasty, who later seized the throne by allying with another faction of Han Chinese. They claimed Chinese mandate of heaven, followed Chinese imperial system, culture and language.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Grievances

I have said it before, I'll said again. You're a false flag.

According to your theory, India was never colonized, either. Also, you probably didn't know Manchus had their own distinct language and culture. The Qin Dynasty's imperial court expressed a culture that was certainly not Han Chinese.

 

[Kamikaze Pilot]

But on the other hand they orchestrated integration on dozen fronts. No British. No India. Don't forget that. When British arrived there was no 'India'.

Phew! At least desist from cherry picking when confronted with facts. Read point#3.

3. The treaties which bound the princely states to the central government ceased to exist. It was left to Indian leaders to unite the country by persuasion or by force.

Sardar Patel is called the Bismarck of India.

If India wasn't a country, how come it has been united and stable for 70 years?

 

[VCheng]

Be it war or be it economy, the comparison between China and India is not fair because India was under colonial rule for 200 years.

Look at it this way: China in 1948 at the time of its communist revolution was economically very comparable to India at the time of its independence in 1947, perhaps even worse in certain measures.

 

[Shamsher1990]

'Colonization' was a feature of imperial age. China had her own perils of imperialism. China was divided into what is called as 'Spheres of Influence' among European powers post opium wars. This was called as Cutting of Chinese Melon. This guy covers it nicely.

https://hubpages.com/education/Imperialism-China

Imperialism in China

Imperialist domination of China began with what are known as the Opium Wars. Before these wars, only two ports were open to foreign traders. British merchants bought Chinese tea, silk and other goods, but there was no market for British goods in China. Then British merchants started smuggling opium into China on a large scale.

The illegal opium trade was profitable to the British traders but did immense physical and moral damage to the Chinese. In 1839, when a Chinese government official seized an opium cargo and destroyed it, Britain declared war and easily defeated the Chinese. The Chinese were then forced to pay heavy damages to the British and tfl open five port cities to British traders. The Chinese government also agreed that in future British subjects in these ports would be tried for any crimes in English rather than in Chinese courts. This provision, which other western countries copied, came to be known as extraterritorial rights. The Chinese government was no longer free to impose tariff on foreign goods. The island of Hong Kong was turned over to Britain.

Soon France entered into similar unequal treaties with China. On the pretext that a French missionary had been murdered, England and France fought another war with China. China was defeated and was forced to grant more privileges to her conquerors.

The next important stage in the growth of imperialism in China came after the war with Japan. This came about when Japan tried to increase her influence over Korea which was under Chinese over-lordship. China resented this and the two countries went to war, which ended in victory for Japan. China gave Korea her independence and ceded Formosa and other islands to Japan. She was also forced to pay Japan heavy war damages amounting to about 150 million dollars.

France, Russia, Britain and Germany gave loans to China to help her to meet this payment But not for nothing, These western countries then divided China into spheres of influence, which meant that each country had certain regions of China reserved exclusively for its purposes. For example, in its sphere of influence, a country might have the right to build railways or work mines. Germany got Kiaochow Bay and exclusive rights in Shantung and in the Hwang-Ho valley; Russia took Liaotung Peninsula, along with the right to build railroads in Manchuria. France received Kwangchow Bay and extensive rights in three southern provinces of China. Britain got Wei-hi-Wei in addition to her sphere of influence in the Yangtze valley.

The United States feared that China would be completely parcelled out in exclusive spheres of influence and that its trade with China would be shut off. The United States, therefore, suggested the policy known as the 'Open Door'. This policy is also described as 'Me too' policy. According to this policy, all countries would have equal rights to trade anywhere in China. Britain supported the United States thinking that this policy would discourage the annexation of China by Japan and Russia, the two countries that could most easily send their armies to the mainland.

The scramble for privileges stopped in China after an uprising against the foreign powers known as the Boxer Rebellion. But the foreign powers were victorious and levied heavy damages on China as punishment. Imperialism continued, with the cooperation of Chinese warlords. These military commanders were supported by the loans which they got from foreign powers in exchange for more privileges. Though China was not conquered and occupied by any imperialist country, the effects of these developments on China were the same as in areas which and been colonized. In a period of a few decades, China had been reduced to the status of an international colony. The division of China into spheres of influence has often been described as the 'cutting of the Chinese melon'.

 

[nang2]

'Colonization' was a feature of imperial age. China had her own perils of imperialism. China was divided into what is called as 'Spheres of Influence' among European powers post opium wars. This was called as Cutting of Chinese Melon. This guy covers it nicely.

https://hubpages.com/education/Imperialism-China

Imperialism in China

Imperialist domination of China began with what are known as the Opium Wars. Before these wars, only two ports were open to foreign traders. British merchants bought Chinese tea, silk and other goods, but there was no market for British goods in China. Then British merchants started smuggling opium into China on a large scale.

The illegal opium trade was profitable to the British traders but did immense physical and moral damage to the Chinese. In 1839, when a Chinese government official seized an opium cargo and destroyed it, Britain declared war and easily defeated the Chinese. The Chinese were then forced to pay heavy damages to the British and tfl open five port cities to British traders. The Chinese government also agreed that in future British subjects in these ports would be tried for any crimes in English rather than in Chinese courts. This provision, which other western countries copied, came to be known as extraterritorial rights. The Chinese government was no longer free to impose tariff on foreign goods. The island of Hong Kong was turned over to Britain.

Soon France entered into similar unequal treaties with China. On the pretext that a French missionary had been murdered, England and France fought another war with China. China was defeated and was forced to grant more privileges to her conquerors.

The next important stage in the growth of imperialism in China came after the war with Japan. This came about when Japan tried to increase her influence over Korea which was under Chinese over-lordship. China resented this and the two countries went to war, which ended in victory for Japan. China gave Korea her independence and ceded Formosa and other islands to Japan. She was also forced to pay Japan heavy war damages amounting to about 150 million dollars.

France, Russia, Britain and Germany gave loans to China to help her to meet this payment But not for nothing, These western countries then divided China into spheres of influence, which meant that each country had certain regions of China reserved exclusively for its purposes. For example, in its sphere of influence, a country might have the right to build railways or work mines. Germany got Kiaochow Bay and exclusive rights in Shantung and in the Hwang-Ho valley; Russia took Liaotung Peninsula, along with the right to build railroads in Manchuria. France received Kwangchow Bay and extensive rights in three southern provinces of China. Britain got Wei-hi-Wei in addition to her sphere of influence in the Yangtze valley.

The United States feared that China would be completely parcelled out in exclusive spheres of influence and that its trade with China would be shut off. The United States, therefore, suggested the policy known as the 'Open Door'. This policy is also described as 'Me too' policy. According to this policy, all countries would have equal rights to trade anywhere in China. Britain supported the United States thinking that this policy would discourage the annexation of China by Japan and Russia, the two countries that could most easily send their armies to the mainland.

The scramble for privileges stopped in China after an uprising against the foreign powers known as the Boxer Rebellion. But the foreign powers were victorious and levied heavy damages on China as punishment. Imperialism continued, with the cooperation of Chinese warlords. These military commanders were supported by the loans which they got from foreign powers in exchange for more privileges. Though China was not conquered and occupied by any imperialist country, the effects of these developments on China were the same as in areas which and been colonized. In a period of a few decades, China had been reduced to the status of an international colony. The division of China into spheres of influence has often been described as the 'cutting of the Chinese melon'.

Since China always maintained a head of the state and diplomatic relationship with other countries in the world during this era, in our history books, we call it half-colonization.

 

[Shamsher1990]

Since China always maintained a head of the state and diplomatic relationship with other countries in the world during this era, in our history books, we call it half-colonization.

Yes, thats what I meant. 'Perils of Imperialism'.

That said, opium trade into China was no less evil that European did. I will say it was similar to Bengal famine of India caused by British policies. Opium trade into China destroyed one whole generation.

 

[Kamikaze Pilot]

@Jackdaws

 

[Indus Pakistan]

If India wasn't a country, how come it has been united and stable for 70 years?

I will address the other points you made later but 70 years proves nothing. For nearly 100 years the British united and kept stable present day Burma/Myanmar, Bangladesh, India and Pakistan. Does that mean their empire was a "country"?

 

[Shamsher1990]

For nearly 100 years the British united and kept stable present day Burma/Myanmar, Bangladesh, India and Pakistan. Does that mean that was a "country"?

What is a country?

 

[nature is]

According to your theory, India was never colonized, either. Also, you probably didn't know Manchus had their own distinct language and culture. The Qin Dynasty's imperial court expressed a culture that was certainly not Han Chinese.

Were British a subject of any Indian kingdom? Did British claim Indian throne, call themselves Indian, follow Indian imperial administration and culture? No. British imposed their system on India. That is colonization. Look at what's the emblem on your British India flag.


Qing dynasty flag is a Chinese dragon.

Manchus are multiple-ethnics, only 16% of Manchu troops were Manchu, the rest Han Chinese and other tribes.

Manchu called itself as China and Chinese.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

What is a country?

It can mean many things but I am picking on it in the manner @abcxyz0000 is trying to articulate.

 

[nang2]

Were British a subject of any Indian kingdom? Did British claim Indian throne, call themselves Indian, follow Indian imperial administration and culture.


Qing dynasty flag is Chinese dragon.

View attachment 496808


Less than 16% of Manchu troops were Manchu but Han Chinese and other tribes.

View attachment 496807

Qing imperial decree were in Chinese
View attachment 496810

Why do you bring up facts BEFORE Machu conquered Ming Dynasty? Why is that relevant at all? AFTER the conquest, they were the masters of China, just like British were the masters of India.