China to invest $2.2 trillion in transport by 2020

[onebyone]

We must learn the lesson from the last 2 decades:
We had underestimated the transport need of today.
We should not build for 2017. but build for 2030, 2050.

This is a massive amount of money spent in short. This isn't about their infrastructure, it's about saving their economy. This is a ucking stimulus package designed to create jobs and spread money.
There's a major issue with their economy and they are not saying it.

Infrastructure is definitely one aspect where India should learn from the Chinese but also to make sure we don't overbuild these and end up having ghost towns and unused infra

Along with land cost, labor and equipment-material costs tend to increase every year

 

[AndrewJin]

We must learn the lesson from the last 2 decades:
We had underestimated the transport need of today.
We should not build for 2017. but build for 2030, 2050.




Along with land cost, labor and equipment-material costs tend to increase every year

Their problem is they do not build for today but for the last century.

They lack money, technology, expertise, experiences as well as willingness and vision.

 

[Jlaw]

Agree with you fully!!

One example from my city Shanghai, the inner ring elevated roads (内环高架). Inner ring was built in mid-1990s'. It has only two lanes at one direction, a very narrow road, so you can imagine how congested it is.

However, when inner ring was built in 1990s', people in Shanghai all saw it as a crazy and useless project. At that time there were almost NO private cars in Shanghai, so why we need this "empty road over the sky"??

But now, every one in Shanghai is complaining why government did not make it a 4-lane road from the very beginning!!! People are all very clear that, given the expensive land cost in Shanghai, we miss the chance to have a spacious inner ring FOREVER!!

That's why I say infrastructure is something NOW or NEVER
View attachment 382461

In another word the infra is built for the future. It's a hard concept for Indians to conceive.

 

[Mangus Ortus Novem]

Infrastructure is essentially writing The History of the Future Today.

It is the grand design on which the Great Building Blocks of Real Economy come to fruition.

An investment of 'just' 2 Trillion is going to facilitate and economic output of 20Ts.

@Shotgunner51 you are good in valution of assets both appreciation and deprecidations...if you have time you can enlighten some folks here at PDF about the net worth of the PRC infrastructure and its cummaltive impact of actual/real GDP growth. I guess in your valuation you will also have to factor in HDI, Social Change and addition to Comprehensive National Strength and security of the state.

I do believe that in any valuation mere economic output is restrictive in nature.

We need to see the impact on overall Human Condition. But given your background I am sure you will help people understand thing better. If you have time that is.

OBOR can have much better and deeper explanation in this way @TaiShang

 

[MarcsPakistan]

Wish to travel to CHina for a couple of weeks or more

 

[shadows888]

Infrastructure is definitely one aspect where India should learn from the Chinese but also to make sure we don't overbuild these and end up having ghost towns and unused infra

what a ridiculous statement, in a country of 1.4 billion people (and india's close) there can never be not enough Infrastructure. more housing pushes down the cost of real estate so more average person can afford it. when your planning to move 350 million people into the cities in the next 8 years, your not going to have "ghost towns" which have been debunked over and over again. building 2 land highways will just mean 3 years down the road, that road will be clogged and become bottlenecks thereby shaving some 2-3 percent gdp growth.

 

[Mrc]

mean while in Pakistan... few people are bending upside down arguing against few metros and motorways

 

[AndrewJin]

Wish to travel to CHina for a couple of weeks or more

Welcome!
You will enjoy every sort of natural and urban landscapes in one country.

what a ridiculous statement, in a country of 1.4 billion people (and india's close) there can never be not enough Infrastructure. more housing pushes down the cost of real estate so more average person can afford it. when your planning to move 350 million people into the cities in the next 8 years, your not going to have "ghost towns" which have been debunked over and over again. building 2 land highways will just mean 3 years down the road, that road will be clogged and become bottlenecks thereby shaving some 2-3 percent gdp growth.

Zhengzhou East District, famous ghost town according to western corporate media and its brainwashed followers.

 

[Papa Dragon]

what a ridiculous statement, in a country of 1.4 billion people (and india's close) there can never be not enough Infrastructure. more housing pushes down the cost of real estate so more average person can afford it. when your planning to move 350 million people into the cities in the next 8 years, your not going to have "ghost towns" which have been debunked over and over again. building 2 land highways will just mean 3 years down the road, that road will be clogged and become bottlenecks thereby shaving some 2-3 percent gdp growth.

What I meant was to build towns with demand but not to build them in prior. The Chinese could definitely afford these as your economy is way more than ours. I'm talking about the present infrastructure scenario in India, where we need to primarily concentrate on developing existing cities and executing world class town planning systems when we try to expand them and also to concentrate on improving the road and rail infra in our country which is definitely one aspect we could learn from China.

 

[AndrewJin]

What I meant was to build towns with demand but not to build them in prior. The Chinese could definitely afford these as your economy is way more than ours. I'm talking about the present infrastructure scenario in India, where we need to primarily concentrate on developing existing cities and executing world class town planning systems when we try to expand them and also to concentrate on improving the road and rail infra in our country which is definitely one aspect we could learn from China.

To cope with millions of new urban dwellers, building in demand is way too late.
One can estimate how many people to come in the next decade, then build all required infra now.
Otherwise, the failure of those congested suburbs in Mumbai where even the basic infra cannot be ensured will just repeat everywhere in india.

 

[Papa Dragon]

To cope with millions of new urban dwellers, building in demand is way too late.
One can estimate how many people to come in the next decade, then build all required infra now.
Otherwise, the failure of those congested suburbs in Mumbai where even the basic infra cannot be ensured will just repeat everywhere in india.

Democracy dude. Do you think land acquisition is so easy in India that you could force people outta your way to accommodate those urban dwellers. The best part about communists is they take decisions but you have to deal with a whole lot of groups and political parties in a democracy. I do understand what you're saying is totally correct but you also gotta know how things work in India which is very different from China.

 

[AndrewJin]

Democracy dude. Do you think land acquisition is so easy in India that you could force people outta your way to accommodate those urban dwellers. The best part about communists is they take decisions but you have to deal with a whole lot of groups and political parties in a democracy. I do understand what you're saying is totally correct but you also gotta know how things work in India which is very different from China.

Don't blame politics as always.
There is no real democracy in india.
Urban redevelopment is relatively efficient in many western countries.
How about blame the incompetence of people who lack vision and brain?

 

[TaiShang]

Infrastructure is essentially writing The History of the Future Today.

It is the grand design on which the Great Building Blocks of Real Economy come to fruition.

An investment of 'just' 2 Trillion is going to facilitate and economic output of 20Ts.

@Shotgunner51 you are good in valution of assets both appreciation and deprecidations...if you have time you can enlighten some folks here at PDF about the net worth of the PRC infrastructure and its cummaltive impact of actual/real GDP growth. I guess in your valuation you will also have to factor in HDI, Social Change and addition to Comprehensive National Strength and security of the state.

I do believe that in any valuation mere economic output is restrictive in nature.

We need to see the impact on overall Human Condition. But given your background I am sure you will help people understand thing better. If you have time that is.

OBOR can have much better and deeper explanation in this way @TaiShang

Very well said. A comprehensive analysis as you suggested on the ripple effects/positive externalities that include both tangible benefits that are easily calculable and intangible benefits that are not easy to put in numbers (such as HDI, as you have put forward) would be really very enlightening. On this, @Shotgunner51 is the most well-equipped member in here.

Also, as you have pointed out, given that the OBOR places China as the hub of the entire emerging Eurasian supercontinent, China would not only develop an infra for its domestic economic/social needs, but also for the needs of an entire Eurasian landmass. OBOR will literally transform Northwest and Central China, bringing in immense global demand and supply. A mediocre infrastructure would be unable to cope with it.

We need to remember that China is not US geographically. The US has a very limited number of land neighbors. China is a country with the most number of neighbors and it is probably the most diverse neighborhood: On the one side, we have Japan, the highest human development achievement human race have attained so far. On the other side, we have developing nations with much lower income, technological advancement and public development. China is situated right in the middle. How cannot China think and plan ahead when it is located right at the center of the most significant development story of the century?

I would say, the 2+ trillion USD is only an initial investment to set up the very basic of national infrastructure. Long term spending will likely continue well into 2020s up until 2050.

 

[GS Zhou]

Do you think land acquisition is so easy in India that you could force people outta your way to accommodate those urban dwellers. The best part about communists is they take decisions but you have to deal with a whole lot of groups and political parties in a democracy.

Land acquisition in China is difficult too, and extremely expensive. I've seen too many examples that normal families becoming millionaires, simply because government needs to build a new bridge, or new road, that passing through their houses. In fact, most Chinese families will become super excited, rather than frustrated, if they hear the news that government wants to build some stuff in their areas. Because this means they will get a large amount of compensation from the government.

That's why I say infrastructure is something now or never. Today we still could afford the land clearance cost, although it is already stupidly expensive. But if we don't build these bridges or roads today, the higher cost in 2030 or 2040 will kill any attempt.

Just read a news from UK. The British government will spend $65 billion to build a high speed rail that linking London to Birmingham. The distance in between London and Birmingham is 160km only. But even such a short route needs $65 billion!!! Or $400 million per km.

While, the Beijing to Shanghai high speed rail line, 1,100km in distance, costs us $30 billion only, or $27 million per km.

$400 million per km vs. $27 million per km, which you prefer?

 

[Dungeness]

Talking about spending trillions on infrastructure, India had a grand plan too a few years back. They are catching up quickly.

India to spend USD 1 trillion on infrastructure in next 5 yrs
http://archive.indianexpress.com/ne...lion-on-infrastructure-in-next-5-yrs/1027738/