China Space Military：Recon, Satcom, Navi, ASAT/BMD, Orbital Vehicle, SLV, etc.

[JOEY TRIBIANI]

26 countries was looking for it including USA , Australia and uk.

 

[kungfugymnast]

How much time is 'way before' ?

Vega-31 was shot down in March 1999. Milosevic called for a ceasefire on Apr 1999. NATO officially ended the air campaign in Jun 1999.

You call two months 'way before' ? You are typical of the Chinese way of debating: Do no homework.

As for the rest of the post, I finally concede that I am debating the issue with a 12 yr old.

Stop covering the shame oldman. Fact is fact that f117 phased out because your air force wouldn't dare to fly that defenseless f117 after its tech fell into enemy's hand. Milosevic has been calling for ceasefire many times but America wanted to attack serbia out of pleasing the oil rich nations. Because your stealth planes at risk, America only accepted Milosevic's agreement to ceasefire 1 month later.

So where's your reply on your country's coward arms and economy embargo imposed on iraq starving the country? Fight match between US and Iraq is like you getting the referee to bound your opponent's hands and feet before letting him into the ring. Will you become POW today if they had su30mk, mig33, su35 during Iraqi freedom 2003?

 

[BoQ77]

the lower-orbit satellite has much better resolution. But given its orbit height, it could only take picture of a very small area. In addition to that, it is a "moving" satellite, i.e. it could stay above of a specified area for very short time.

So you could either:
Option 1: launch lots of lower orbit satellites to make sure a 100%/24hour coverage! But it is an expensive way!

Option 2: launch a geostationary orbit satellite. Given its height (36000km), it could monitor a very large area, but with much lower resolution. However, its key task is not to assure a 100% accuracy, but to specify areas that "suspicious". After the suspicious areas specified, it is other low-orbit satellite's job to identify if there is really carrier there! Once other measurements matured, e.g. WU14 (Hypersonic Glide vehicle), they could also join the 2nd round, or even 3rd round search.

I see Geostationary orbit sat is very useful in weather forecast, when it can see a lot of natural phenomenon ( large typhoon, storm... ), I doubt that they could see anything more details in small size.

 

[applesauce]

US tested its f117 for the first time by slipping into panama and attacked the dictator Noriega's command center.

that's actual use, against a much weaker opponent. not testing in peace against capable near peers. If the Russian had parked a ton of sensors and maybe a battery or two of S-300s around the area then things would be different

Iranian pair of f4e's had flown near US fleet that the cruiser (if not mistaken) launched few SM-2MR missiles at the pair of phantoms. The Iranian phantoms turned around and performed evasive maneuvers dispensing chaffs and spoofed the missiles. Both phantoms made it back safely.

thats has nothing to do with testing sensors/signatures, phantoms are american built anyways and definitely not a secret in anyway whatsoever. the US also flew B-52 at the edge of the chinese declared ADIZ, again, B-52 not secret, they could have easily flown B-2s or F-22s but instead they choose B-52s and only at the very edge.

So why not j20 perform the same harassment? Besides, the j20 could outrun the slower super hornets while j15s could be sent in to help chase the hornets away if j20 stealth doesn't work. If the j20 stealth works, the Americans won't know it's there. To be safe, try not to get too close like 20nm away from the fleet.

same reason americans don't skirt Chinese and Russian air space with F-22's either during development or after deployment,

one. J-20 hasnt finished developing yet
its peace time and you want to allow your potential (capable) opponents as few chances as possible to try and get a reading on you.

and 5th gens like f-22, j-20 are still quite secretive, unlike say B-52s or F5s

I read from the article "Chinese specialists guess that Su-35, C-17 "may" used their radar to try .... "

again dont use wantchinatimes. nobody finds any credibility what the "expert" says on that source.

 

[BoQ77]

So is there any radar screenshot for F-22, B-52 detection available? it's good if someone has them, but it doesn't matter if there's NONE.

I learn from many members here that "the B-52 didn't enter China solely created ADIZ in ECS".
But it's illogical, the couple of B-52 didn't fly such a long way for nothing. And why American must be so scared of flying over a Zone 330-550km away from China coast and it's the zone they had been controlling until 1972 before passed to Japan? 1 year later of the incident American still flying their P-8A 135 miles ( 217km ) off coast of Hainan island

In addition, Japan SK, P-3C also challenged China claimed ADIZ later too.
And muted response too.

-----------------------
In summary,
1. American claimed their B-52s flied over Senkaku island, known as Diaoyu from China side, NOTHING happened to them ( No intercept, No communication from China ).
There's few scenario: China could detect them and MUTE / or couldn't detect them
- China claimed they can detect them flying at edge of the Zone, means if they put their radars in the China mainland coast, their radar range cover 330km to Senkaku plus 200km of radius to the edge of the ADIZ. So the minimum range for their radar to able to detect those B-52 is 500-530km. This raised another question.
China stated that they could detect B-52 at more than 530km+ away from their coast, anything support their statement or not?

In this situation, it's reasonable for China to state "they didn't communicate or intercept the B-52 because B52 didn't enter their Zone"

2. Later, SK and Japan flied their P-3C to the Zone,
in Japan case there's several photos showing their P-3C flying over the islands in real. And again, China MUTED
So according to 1. they must be able to detect Japan P-3C at shorter distance, about over 300km. But they MUTED. So we could have a guess, if the B-52 actually flied over those islands, China'd mute too. If this is true, China'd mute no matter what Japan or US does in Senkaku island.

But according to China logic, they control the airspace over Senkaku island, so they must intercept or atleast try to contact the Japan P-3C once detected the activities there. But the reality is they did NOTHING.
So someone could make an assumption China can't detect the Japan P3C or they can detect it but do NOTHING against its activity. This is the highly possible situation that happened.
@Nihonjin1051

 

[JSCh]

Window glass for China’s space station successfully developed
By Jin Chen (People's Daily Online) 16:07, October 15, 2015

Workers put a coating on the glass. (Photo by Xinhua News Agency/Yang Shiyao)​

Recently, the window glass to be used in the lighting system of China's space station has been successfully developed by Star Arrow Special Glass in Qinhuangdao, north China's Hebei province.

The first batch of products will be delivered to China Aerospace Science and Technology Corporation (CASC) at the end of October.

The glass produced by Star Arrow Special Glass have been successfully applied on Shenzhou-5 to Shenzhou-10 spacecraft, "Tiangong-1" target spacecraft, "Chang'e-1" to "Chang'e-3" lunar probes since the company's establishment in 2000.

 

[kungfugymnast]

that's actual use, against a much weaker opponent. not testing in peace against capable near peers. If the Russian had parked a ton of sensors and maybe a battery or two of S-300s around the area then things would be different



thats has nothing to do with testing sensors/signatures, phantoms are american built anyways and definitely not a secret in anyway whatsoever. the US also flew B-52 at the edge of the chinese declared ADIZ, again, B-52 not secret, they could have easily flown B-2s or F-22s but instead they choose B-52s and only at the very edge.



same reason americans don't skirt Chinese and Russian air space with F-22's either during development or after deployment,

one. J-20 hasnt finished developing yet
its peace time and you want to allow your potential (capable) opponents as few chances as possible to try and get a reading on you.

and 5th gens like f-22, j-20 are still quite secretive, unlike say B-52s or F5s



again dont use wantchinatimes. nobody finds any credibility what the "expert" says on that source.

Russian detection technology is similar to Chinese, no point testing stealth on radars that has been proven effective. Since the j20 is designed to counter American threats, the j20 needs to prove whether it works by flying too close near the minimum permitted range where US fleet would issue warning.

There are f22s operating from US airbase in Japan. We won't know if the US had tested the f22 stealth with Chinese and Russian radars especially if the test was successful.

PLAN did test their submarine stealth capability by going underneath US Arleigh Burke class destroyer and hit its towed sonar then fled while undetected. Also the type039 yuan class diesel~electric sub that slipped through Indian naval fleet in their territory to prove to Pakistan its effectiveness and immediately got the sales deal

So is there any radar screenshot for F-22, B-52 detection available? it's good if someone has them, but it doesn't matter if there's NONE.

I learn from many members here that "the B-52 didn't enter China solely created ADIZ in ECS".
But it's illogical, the couple of B-52 didn't fly such a long way for nothing. And why American must be so scared of flying over a Zone 330-550km away from China coast and it's the zone they had been controlling until 1972 before passed to Japan? 1 year later of the incident American still flying their P-8A 135 miles ( 217km ) off coast of Hainan island

In addition, Japan SK, P-3C also challenged China claimed ADIZ later too.
And muted response too.

-----------------------
In summary,
1. American claimed their B-52s flied over Senkaku island, known as Diaoyu from China side, NOTHING happened to them ( No intercept, No communication from China ).
There's few scenario: China could detect them and MUTE and couldn't detect them
- China claimed they can detect them flying at edge of the Zone, means if they put their radars in the China mainland coast, their radar range cover 330km to Senkaku plus 200km of radius to the edge of the ADIZ. So the minimum range for their radar to able to detect those B-52 is 500-530km. This raised another question.
China stated that they could detect B-52 at more than 530km+ away from their coast, anything support their statement or not?

In this situation, it's reasonable for China to state "they didn't communicate or intercept the B-52 because B52 didn't enter their Zone"

2. Later, SK and Japan flied their P-3C to the Zone,
in Japan case there's several photos showing their P-3C flying over the islands in real. And again, China MUTED
So according to 1. they must be able to detect Japan P-3C at shorter distance, about over 300km. But they MUTED. So we could have a guess, if the B-52 actually flied over those islands, China'd mute too. If this is true, China'd mute no matter what Japan or US does in Senkaku island.

But according to China logic, they control the airspace over Senkaku island, so they must intercept or atleast try to contact the Japan P-3C once detected the activities there. But the reality is they did NOTHING.
So someone could make an assumption China can't detect the Japan P3C or they can detect it but do NOTHING against its activity. This is the highly possible situation that happened.
@Nihonjin1051

The diaoyu/senkaku island is actually at middle of international sea intersection really close to taiwan and japanese small island. China claimed it just to prevent Taiwan or Japan setup regulation requiring ships entering/exiting china east ports to pay taxes. They don't really bother if aircraft flying past near the island. PLAAF will scramble fighters if the b52 getting real close into China mainland, then you'll see j11b doing topgun and JAG style harrasment maneuver. If the b52 has m61a1 in rear turret, then the j11b will approach from above avoid getting to its rear.

 

[BoQ77]

The diaoyu/senkaku island is actually at middle of international sea intersection really close to taiwan and japanese small island. China claimed it just to prevent Taiwan or Japan setup regulation requiring ships entering/exiting china east ports to pay taxes. They don't really bother if aircraft flying past near the island. PLAAF will scramble fighters if the b52 getting real close into China mainland, then you'll see j11b doing topgun and JAG style harrasment maneuver. If the b52 has m61a1 in rear turret, then the j11b will approach from above avoid getting to its rear.

Keep focus on the topic. To you, could China radar detect US B-52 330 / 530km+ or Japan P-3C 330km far away from China coast?

 

[jhungary]

How much time is 'way before' ?

Vega-31 was shot down in March 1999. Milosevic called for a ceasefire on Apr 1999. NATO officially ended the air campaign in Jun 1999.

You call two months 'way before' ? You are typical of the Chinese way of debating: Do no homework.

As for the rest of the post, I finally concede that I am debating the issue with a 12 yr old.

Well, you do know he is the one that said US Military was the second best paid job in all the world military, where an Marine earn (or brag about earning) $11k A MONTH serving Uncle Sam

Keep focus on the topic. To you, could China radar detect US B-52 330 / 530km+ or Japan P-3C 330km far away from China coast?

The question is not whether or not they can, but instead can they send aircraft to intercept them AFTER they had detected it.

The nearest Chinese Airfield (Nangan Airport) is about 350-400 KM away from Senkaku. By the time the Chinese detected the flight, they need to scramble aircraft to intercept the flight. And I don't know how advance technology got in China, but I would take a punt they yet to have the ability to teleport. Which mean they would need to fly there from their bases in Mainland. Which would mean even with afterburner, it will take at least 20 minutes to get there, by the flight would have already gone.

It does not matter whether or not Chinese can detect threat that far out, unless they (PLAAF) can take off from Taiwan Pengjia Islet (140km away) or from the Japanese Ishigaki Island (170km away) even they can detect them, they could not possibly intercept them. Which does not render any control to Chinese Air and Naval Force

 

[applesauce]

Russian detection technology is similar to Chinese, no point testing stealth on radars that has been proven effective. Since the j20 is designed to counter American threats, the j20 needs to prove whether it works by flying too close near the minimum permitted range where US fleet would issue warning.

similar /= the same, gold and lead is pretty similar too, how about i trade you some lead for gold? furthermore, while older and purchased sensors may be similar/same, the same cannot of held as always true for china's domestic sensors, and there is no known F-22/F-35 flights against the latest russian sensors. In addition what part of not letting the potential enemy get your reading don't you understand? it's like im literally explaining 1+1=2 to a 2 year old here. it is the most basic of military operations, the same reason why war ships and planes have different sensor, frequencies, and outputs for peace and for war so that they enemy don't read your exact signatures in peace then use it against you in war.

here are f22s operating from US airbase in Japan. We won't know if the US had tested the f22 stealth with Chinese and Russian radars especially if the test was successful.

hence we cannot say they have. you're making the same argument as: since you guys don't know my true identity, i must be batman.

PLAN did test their submarine stealth capability by going underneath US Arleigh Burke class destroyer and hit its towed sonar then fled while undetected. Also the type039 yuan class diesel~electric sub that slipped through Indian naval fleet in their territory to prove to Pakistan its effectiveness and immediately got the sales deal

source?, im betting those are tabloid pieces. even if true then it a cost/benefit calculation on their part, risk of losing signature secrets-vs-benefits of multi-billion dollar sale.

The diaoyu/senkaku island is actually at middle of international sea intersection really close to taiwan and japanese small island. China claimed it just to prevent Taiwan or Japan setup regulation requiring ships entering/exiting china east ports to pay taxes.

please stop smoking unknown powders and take off that tin foil hat while you're at it.

Keep focus on the topic. To you, could China radar detect US B-52 330 / 530km+ or Japan P-3C 330km far away from China coast?

sure they can, the B-52 signature is pretty huge, like 100m^2, tons of chinese land radars have targeting ranges in excess of 550 km for large targets like that. even more so if we only talk about detection and not targeting. now if the US had flown B-2s, especially at the edges, then the chinese would probably never had known about it, unless they by chance happen to have assets real close by the flight path.

 

[BoQ77]

applesauce
could you name few of tons of land radar as you said?
as I know, then China sent early warning aircraft to help monitoring coming targets

 

[kungfugymnast]

Keep focus on the topic. To you, could China radar detect US B-52 330 / 530km+ or Japan P-3C 330km far away from China coast?

Yes, China could detect them at such range. PLAAF and PLAN will only intercept if these aircraft flying into actual China territorial waters.

Well, you do know he is the one that said US Military was the second best paid job in all the world military, where an Marine earn (or brag about earning) $11k A MONTH serving Uncle Sam



The question is not whether or not they can, but instead can they send aircraft to intercept them AFTER they had detected it.

The nearest Chinese Airfield (Nangan Airport) is about 350-400 KM away from Senkaku. By the time the Chinese detected the flight, they need to scramble aircraft to intercept the flight. And I don't know how advance technology got in China, but I would take a punt they yet to have the ability to teleport. Which mean they would need to fly there from their bases in Mainland. Which would mean even with afterburner, it will take at least 20 minutes to get there, by the flight would have already gone.

It does not matter whether or not Chinese can detect threat that far out, unless they (PLAAF) can take off from Taiwan Pengjia Islet (14km away) or from the Japanese Ishigaki Island (170km away) even they can detect them, they could not possibly intercept them. Which does not render any control to Chinese Air and Naval Force

Still trying to cover up that USMC is the highest paid foot soldiers job when comes to war? Your Uncle Sam was so desperate to get people to sign up including non-locals migrants for invasion campaign fighting for natural resources. Most who signed up were those who don't get much education, poor that would do anything for executive level paychecks $5grand or more monthly.Better than just being store clerk earning less than $1.8k.

China still respect its neighboring countries around Diaoyu/Senkaku islands. They could have sent its naval forces to guard that those islands 24x7 but they didn't so that merchant ships and freighters would go freely between these countries for healthy economy. FYI, Taiwan, Japan, South Korea and even you Americans are friends in trade anyway.

At 350-400km away (that's over 200Nm away), even your American air force would take time to reach. Not like in that fictional crap "Stealth" movie where fighter jets could engage afterburner easily reach Mach 4 and fly all the way from South China Sea to Cambodia,Tajikistan then North Korea before having to refuel going 4000nm in such short time. Russian Tu-142 Bear H recon bomber often flew into Alaska where your F-15C and later F-22 intercepted would reach when the Bear was already near your Alaska coast. What is so advanced about your US fighters then?

that's actual use, against a much weaker opponent. not testing in peace against capable near peers. If the Russian had parked a ton of sensors and maybe a battery or two of S-300s around the area then things would be different



thats has nothing to do with testing sensors/signatures, phantoms are american built anyways and definitely not a secret in anyway whatsoever. the US also flew B-52 at the edge of the chinese declared ADIZ, again, B-52 not secret, they could have easily flown B-2s or F-22s but instead they choose B-52s and only at the very edge.



same reason americans don't skirt Chinese and Russian air space with F-22's either during development or after deployment,

one. J-20 hasnt finished developing yet
its peace time and you want to allow your potential (capable) opponents as few chances as possible to try and get a reading on you.

and 5th gens like f-22, j-20 are still quite secretive, unlike say B-52s or F5s



again dont use wantchinatimes. nobody finds any credibility what the "expert" says on that source.

B-52 flying over near Diaoyu/Senkaku island is either just to bicker or just making its way to Japan for airshow. Why would you think China is ruthless aggressor that it would attack any military plane that flew past Diaoyu/Senkaku islands?

Iranian F-4E Phantoms are American built. I posted that incident is just to prove that missiles are not 100% hit chance. F-4E 3rd generation managed to spoof considered new SM-2MR missiles is something to take note. If there are few wings of attacking forces, that US fleet would have been goner already within effective range of Exocet. Even Iraqi obsolete Mig25 and early Mig-29A with really poor RWR system managed to spoof and evade US considered advanced missiles at that time.

 

[jhungary]

Still trying to cover up that USMC is the highest paid foot soldiers job when comes to war? Your Uncle Sam was so desperate to get people to sign up including non-locals migrants for invasion campaign fighting for natural resources. Most who signed up were those who don't get much education, poor that would do anything for executive level paychecks $5grand or more monthly.Better than just being store clerk earning less than $1.8k.

Blah, Blah, Blah, you sounded like a 12 years old, all word but no proof, I can say Malaysian Military personnel earn 20k a day dealing drugs, thus make you lot the worse of it all? and You guys invade Philippine and continue to support the Moro Rebellion, thus making you the crappiest military in the world and the number one gun for hire. How about that?

Son, I asked you to show me the proof that Marine brag about earning 11k a month, you show me nothing, and I show you the job pays the same across all MOS and Branch and the only way anyone can earn 11k a month in the military is being a Lt Gen.

You can put on your tin foil hat (actually not even that would cover) all you want, but without proof, what you say is manure.

China still respect its neighboring countries around Diaoyu/Senkaku islands. They could have sent its naval forces to guard that those islands 24x7 but they didn't so that merchant ships and freighters would go freely between these countries for healthy economy. FYI, Taiwan, Japan, South Korea and even you Americans are friends in trade anyway.

Well, and Chinese Sailor don't eat and don't went to do number 1 and 2.

There are reason why the Chinese did not send ship into senkaku 24/7, and care to know why?

At 350-400km away (that's over 200Nm away), even your American air force would take time to reach. Not like in that fictional crap "Stealth" movie where fighter jets could engage afterburner easily reach Mach 4 and fly all the way from South China Sea to Cambodia,Tajikistan then North Korea before having to refuel going 4000nm in such short time. Russian Tu-142 Bear H recon bomber often flew into Alaska where your F-15C and later F-22 intercepted would reach when the Bear was already near your Alaska coast. What is so advanced about your US fighters then?

The problem is, we are not talking about US aircraft, we are talking about Chinese Aircraft intercepting Japanese Aircraft and US bomber.

And by the way, honestly you know little on how Aircraft Interception works. Thus render your point subpar and your post, honestly, shit. You do know not every flight were send to intercept, right? Consider there are over 10,000 flight, both commercial and military entering and leaving US Airspace every hour, you only ever intercept flight that are trying to plot a course into your airspace without proper contact.

If they are flying 200 nm off US coast, what is the point of intercepting them? I mean, we ain't China

 

[kungfugymnast]

Blah, Blah, Blah, you sounded like a 12 years old, all word but no proof, I can say Malaysian Military personnel earn 20k a day dealing drugs, thus make you lot the worse of it all? and You guys invade Philippine and continue to support the Moro Rebellion, thus making you the crappiest military in the world and the number one gun for hire. How about that?

Son, I asked you to show me the proof that Marine brag about earning 11k a month, you show me nothing, and I show you the job pays the same across all MOS and Branch and the only way anyone can earn 11k a month in the military is being a Lt Gen.

You can put on your tin foil hat (actually not even that would cover) all you want, but without proof, what you say is manure.



Well, and Chinese Sailor don't eat and don't went to do number 1 and 2.

There are reason why the Chinese did not send ship into senkaku 24/7, and care to know why?



The problem is, we are not talking about US aircraft, we are talking about Chinese Aircraft intercepting Japanese Aircraft and US bomber.

And by the way, honestly you know little on how Aircraft Interception works. Thus render your point subpar and your post, honestly, shit. You do know not every flight were send to intercept, right? Consider there are over 10,000 flight, both commercial and military entering and leaving US Airspace every hour, you only ever intercept flight that are trying to plot a course into your airspace without proper contact.

If they are flying 200 nm off US coast, what is the point of intercepting them? I mean, we ain't China

It was on CNN, BBC, and all newspapers headlines. Uncle Sam desperately luring people to join the infantry, USMC earning $11k a month, best deal ever during Iraqi Freedom. Black gold is what Uncle Sam wanted while paying nice exec level salary to those joining and risk dying. Even foreigners that weren't born in US got to join, few cried wanted to go home when they were sent to Iraq saying they are against war after taking 2-3 months pay. Fastest dropout, just few days in Iraq before seeing battlefield. How do you expect me to get you newspapers from more than 10 years ago?

Just like America, China is just trader. They treat neighbors as friends and trade partners too. The political infighting that you've seen on TV are just for show. In reality, they all sit down and have tea together talking about trade and economic.

Russian Tu-95/142 Bear has ability to carry nukes, you say 200nm away is no threat? If you recalled old case, your F-14A would pull dangerous maneuvers on some of the bears too, like how J11B done to your P-8. So why making so much noise when others treating your recon plane the same.

 

[jhungary]

It was on CNN, BBC, and all newspapers headlines. Uncle Sam desperately luring people to join the infantry, USMC earning $11k a month, best deal ever during Iraqi Freedom. Black gold is what Uncle Sam wanted while paying nice exec level salary to those joining and risk dying. Even foreigners that weren't born in US got to join, few cried wanted to go home when they were sent to Iraq saying they are against war after taking 2-3 months pay. Fastest dropout, just few days in Iraq before seeing battlefield. How do you expect me to get you newspapers from more than 10 years ago?

First CNN and BBC is NOT newspaper. They are TV News Network. And BBC not even American News Network. And PBS is running a program saying Malay Military rent themselves out to MORO Muslim, bad that your military trying to do that. And it's hard for me to pull out News Segment 10 years ago from PBS, so, do you believe your military is Gun for hire?

You do know why Military all around the world pays less than Commercial Sector, right? It's so that they will pledge their loyalty to the government, not to money, or else, we would not be spending 650 billions on Defence Budget on equipment and recruitment, we would simply use that 650 billions a year to buy-in and paid to win a war. 650 billions a year is not small number you know.

Man, if you have to fake a source, at least know what the source is.

Just like America, China is just trader. They treat neighbors as friends and trade partners too. The political infighting that you've seen on TV are just for show. In reality, they all sit down and have tea together talking about trade and economic.

Lol, what's that have to do with anything?

Russian Tu-95/142 Bear has ability to carry nukes, you say 200nm away is no threat? If you recalled old case, your F-14A would pull dangerous maneuvers on some of the bears too, like how J11B done to your P-8. So why making so much noise when others treating your recon plane the same.

So you are suggesting that every Bear carry nuke and their pilot will go insane and nuke US for no particular reason?

Oh, I am a pilot of Tu-95BN and I feel like dropping some nuke on Alaska today just because the weather is all good and dandy? And we did not use F-14A for at least 30 years....

And again, what's that have to do with China having NO ABILITY to intercept US Aircraft in Senkaku? That being a physical restriction, unless PLAAF aircraft can take off from Taiwan Island, there are no chance that it could reach that alt at that range before the US flight left. I don't quite understand why you pull out "We did this to the bear and now we bitch about the Chinese" Dude, did you have a random button and when pressed, you just randomly rumble something?.