China’s Noisy Subs Get Busier — And Easier to Track

[Anonymous user]

Thanks for the info. But tell me this, if you have a noisier sub, you are letting it be tracked giving the first striker knowledge of where they are and a chance of taking them out. If you are operating with a different noise signature not a noisier signature I can take that argument.
It seems strange to my non military brain.

Actually that does make sense, no sub is 100% silent so I am assuming if I am reading this correctly assuming the sub generates a certain noise of say 50 Decibels they would send out another signal of 150 Decibels which would mask any parts of the real sound. During war time the actual sound produced will be a fraction of what they use to mask the noise signature.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

Thanks for the info. But tell me this, if you have a noisier sub, you are letting it be tracked giving the first striker knowledge of where they are and a chance of taking them out. If you are operating with a different noise signature not a noisier signature I can take that argument.
It seems strange to my non military brain.

Thanks for the advice, but our current subs aren't noisy.

So this isn't even a pre-condition.

 

[Akasa]

Both Type 095 and Type 096 have it, just check my EMALS topic.

Prefessor Ma has already made this a reality for PLAN.

When will the Type 096 be deployed? Does the Type 095 load only 4 cruise missiles?

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

When will the Type 096 be deployed? Does the Type 095 load only 4 cruise missiles?

Not about how many CMs that the Type 095 can load, but the JL-3 SLBM is in its testing stage right now, so once it is ready, then the Type 096 will also be ready.

 

[below_freezing]

Thanks for the info. But tell me this, if you have a noisier sub, you are letting it be tracked giving the first striker knowledge of where they are and a chance of taking them out. If you are operating with a different noise signature not a noisier signature I can take that argument.
It seems strange to my non military brain.

yes, you have a noisier sub, but this is peacetime. in war time, of course you won't go out with the emitters. you just don't put them on/turn them on.

 

[gambit]

So, you wait for war to come and turn off the noise? Really??? That does not make sense to me at all.

It does not.

Obviously you have no clue to use of deception in masking sound signature in navy ships. Gathering individual ship's sound signature is a modern day version of those old days photo-recon of enemy ship silhouette. With a data bank of ships sound signatures, a sonar operator can recognise an individual ship and whether it is freind or enemy.

To counter such intelligence gathering in peace time, it is normal to mask actual sound of a ship by generating fake sounds, and noise maker is one such device. In war time, turning off the noise maker, or altering the previous sound render enemy's sound signature data useless and make sonar operator's work harder.

Actually, it is YOU who do not have that clue.

Masking is not the same thing as silencing. Surface ships on the move cannot suppress their noise, however, they can mask their signatures. Both signatures can have the same noise level with one signature the true one belonging to the ship.

On the other hand, subs belongs in a different issue. A sub tries to be as silent as possible at all times. No masking. If a sub cannot be detected, then it does not matter its signature. But if a sub continues to produce masking noises that are greater than its true signature, it can be tracked, so what good is it then? You can try to argue that producing a louder but false signature during peace time to deceive potential adversary is a 'valid' tactic but then it begs the question of why bother to design subs to be as silent as possible in the first place?

This lead us back to the issue of being silent. If you cannot produce a sub that is superior to the enemy, then it does not matter if you mask your true signature or not. As long as you are on the move, trying to mask your true signature is pointless, you will be tracked with that false signature AS IF it is your true one. Turning it off does what? Nothing. Your true signature is just as loud. So what if the enemy detect a supposedly 'new' signature? Do you think he cannot deduce the fact that the new signature is in the same position as the old and most likely that mean you? If the new signature does not match known 'friendlies' what does that make the new signature? How about you being a 'foe'? What good was your masking then?

Another clue for you: Radar detection and sonar detection are 99.999% philosophically identical. EEs from one discipline can transition to the other with little trouble. In radar detection, the F-22 flies with enhancers primarily to assist air traffic controllers with the secondary benefit of masking its true RCS. Underwater, there are no traffic controllers, so even if the sub's masking signature is as low noise level as the true, if the false is finally detected, the true will eventually be figured out and that deduction will be without your knowledge, in other words, if the enemy figured out your mask, he will do whatever he can to convince you of your perceived advantage to keep you in the dark of his advantage.

This is why your friend's claim to have worked on sonar is getting more dubious upon closer examination of his statement that a sub MUST employ masking techniques.

 

[sweetgrape]

Before the J20 be publicized, I also think chinese F-22 will be a daydream, But this year chinese military industry not surprise the alien, but also the chinese. Most of chinese don't think of those!!! Many western and indian attack chinese defence policy, said that we lack of trasparency, many secret military expenditure are out of people eyes, I don't know why now they forget these expenditure. Chinese spend too much money in R&D, From the J-20 and other military project, I do believe chinese military industry make a great program!! The difference between china defence and india defence is that, India spend too much money in homemade weapon and R&D, but India choose to import advanced weapon from western and russian!!!
Of course chinese Nuke sub is behind USA and Russia, at least, we develop fastly!!! We can wait for our own submarine!!

 

[applesauce]

my biggest problem with this report...

china has had the kilo class for 15 years, your telling me in all this time with full access they could not produce something at least close to the signature of the kilo class? what bs is that? these are the same people who are saying that china made the j-20 from stolen information...so they can make a stealth jet from spying but not a sub with full access to the original?

 

[UKBengali]

According to Chinese military sources, Type 095's quieting is at 105 decibel, Virginia and Seawolf is 90 to 100 decibel while later 688 Los Angeles is at 105 to 110 decibel. So Type 095 is between Virginia / Seawolf and later Los Angeles. Part of Type 095's quieting comes from the pumpjet propulsion.

Type 095 also carries "a small number" of cruise missiles in canted launchers (4?). The first Type 095 was launched in late 2010 and will enter service in 2012.

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If this is true, then US dominance of the world's oceans is finished.

 

[SinoChallenger]

If this is true, then US dominance of the world's oceans is finished.

Not yet. Nuclear subs are one area where the US is head and shoulders above everybody, because they are true blue water vessels. US submarine fleet underwent a generational upgrade since 90's with Seawolf / Viriginia. The Virginias are now being mass produced at a rate of ~1 per year.

China's own "Virginia" (Type 095) is still not quite as quiet as the US and won't enter service until 2012. We are about 20 years behind USA in this area. I don't see China contesting the blue waters even in Asia until the end of the decade 2020.

In diesel-electric submarines, though, China is doing very well. Our latest Qing-class submarines are already comparable to global standards, such as Japan (Soryu class) and Germany (Type 212). In the littoral waters of East Asia, the diesel-electrics have the advantage over nuclear submarines.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

Not yet. Nuclear subs are one area where the US is head and shoulders above everybody, because they are true blue water vessels. US submarine fleet underwent a generational upgrade since 90's with Seawolf / Viriginia. The Virginias are now being mass produced at a rate of ~1 per year.

China's own "Virginia" (Type 095) is still not quite as quiet as the US and won't enter service until 2012. We are about 20 years behind USA in this area. I don't see China contesting the blue waters even in Asia until the end of the decade 2020.

In diesel-electric submarines, though, China is doing very well. Our latest Qing-class submarines are already comparable to global standards, such as Japan (Soryu class) and Germany (Type 212). In the littoral waters of East Asia, the diesel-electrics have the advantage over nuclear submarines.

The Type 095 has the totally electrified power, so it is still quite unique compared to other nuclear subs.

 

[UKBengali]

Not yet. Nuclear subs are one area where the US is head and shoulders above everybody, because they are true blue water vessels. US submarine fleet underwent a generational upgrade since 90's with Seawolf / Viriginia. The Virginias are now being mass produced at a rate of ~1 per year.

China's own "Virginia" (Type 095) is still not quite as quiet as the US and won't enter service until 2012. We are about 20 years behind USA in this area. I don't see China contesting the blue waters even in Asia until the end of the decade 2020.

In diesel-electric submarines, though, China is doing very well. Our latest Qing-class submarines are already comparable to global standards, such as Japan (Soryu class) and Germany (Type 212). In the littoral waters of East Asia, the diesel-electrics have the advantage over nuclear submarines.

Service in 2012 is not really all that bad. If the Type-095SSN really is inbetween late Los Angeles and the Virginia SSNs in terms of noise then that is actually a really fanatastic achievement.

What some people forget is that very soon, China will become richer(and much richer over time) than the US.

It really won't matter that the US Virginia SSN will still be better than the Type-095 as the Chinese boat will most probably cost around half as much as
that of the US one. Things reallty get interesting by 2020 as then China will become a altogether more prosperous country than the US is. In fact the US will
soon need to reduce the massive US defence budget as the economic consequences of losing the dollar as world's reserve currency hits it hard.

China will displace the US from it's current Superpower position not just by deploying weapons such as the J-20 and the Type-095 SSN but also by
being the main force in ending the dominance of the US dollar as the world's number one reserve currency.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

Service in 2012 is not really all that bad. If the Type-095SSN really is inbetween late Los Angeles and the Virginia SSNs in terms of noise then that is actually a really fanatastic achievement.

What some people forget is that very soon, China will become richer(and much richer over time) than the US.

It really won't matter that the US Virginia SSN will still be better than the Type-095 as the Chinese boat will most probably cost around half as much as
that of the US one. Things reallty get interesting by 2020 as then China will become a altogether more prosperous country than the US is. In fact the US will
soon need to reduce the massive US defence budget as the economic consequences of losing the dollar as world's reserve currency hits it hard.

China will displace the US from it's current Superpower position not just by deploying weapons such as the J-20 and the Type-095 SSN but also by
being the main force in ending the dominance of the US dollar as the world's number one reserve currency.

I think the 100% electrified propulsion of the Type 095 gonna boast its overall performance against other SSNs.

All the future PLAN warships gonna be 100% electrified propulsion.

 

[UKBengali]

I think the 100% electrified propulsion of the Type 095 gonna boast its overall performance against other SSNs.

All the future PLAN warships gonna be 100% electrified propulsion.

IMO, the Type-095SSN will still lack when compared to the latest USS SSNs but it will be much better than the late Los Angelese class.

However, weapons such as the J-20 and Type-052 Destroyer will be virtually identical to what the US has produced in the last decade.

China is nearly there and in the next decade should be able to match the US toe-to-toe in any field, civilian or military.

 

[Aramsogo]

I worked at 9500 Godwin Drive in Manassas, VA. Use to be called IBM Federal System, now part of Lockheed Martin. They made every single sonar in the US sub fleet ever, except for Seawolf which was made by GE in Syracuse. Tom Clancy even visited to learn how sonar works.

As for saying passive sonar and airplane radar work on the same principles and the EE are interchangeable, I have never scene that in practice. Nor has that ever been explained to me that way. Sonar requires way more computer processing power, more than would be possible to fit on a fighter jet. Nor have I ever had someone from Lockheed transfer in from the division that makes fighter jets. Most of the techs were ex sonarman. This interchangeability is almost laughable. Air does not equal water. Simple logic should tell you that. If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nial. If you are an radar technician, then everything must look like radar??

Have you ever even been in a modern sub?? I haven't but I was surrounded by 20 men that have and the Navy did offer us tours but frankly I wasn't that interested (I wanted to do finance). The ride is as smooth as silk. Everything is damped. It's easy to generate noise and make a sub noisier.

You really don't know what you are talking about on this one.

I highly recommend you watch The Hunt for Red October to learn how sonar works. That movie is considered very accurate by sonarmen and yes the producers of that film did come to Manassas to see how sonar works too (Or so I was proudly told, it was before my time).

It does not.


Actually, it is YOU who do not have that clue.

Masking is not the same thing as silencing. Surface ships on the move cannot suppress their noise, however, they can mask their signatures. Both signatures can have the same noise level with one signature the true one belonging to the ship.

On the other hand, subs belongs in a different issue. A sub tries to be as silent as possible at all times. No masking. If a sub cannot be detected, then it does not matter its signature. But if a sub continues to produce masking noises that are greater than its true signature, it can be tracked, so what good is it then? You can try to argue that producing a louder but false signature during peace time to deceive potential adversary is a 'valid' tactic but then it begs the question of why bother to design subs to be as silent as possible in the first place?

This lead us back to the issue of being silent. If you cannot produce a sub that is superior to the enemy, then it does not matter if you mask your true signature or not. As long as you are on the move, trying to mask your true signature is pointless, you will be tracked with that false signature AS IF it is your true one. Turning it off does what? Nothing. Your true signature is just as loud. So what if the enemy detect a supposedly 'new' signature? Do you think he cannot deduce the fact that the new signature is in the same position as the old and most likely that mean you? If the new signature does not match known 'friendlies' what does that make the new signature? How about you being a 'foe'? What good was your masking then?

Another clue for you: Radar detection and sonar detection are 99.999% philosophically identical. EEs from one discipline can transition to the other with little trouble. In radar detection, the F-22 flies with enhancers primarily to assist air traffic controllers with the secondary benefit of masking its true RCS. Underwater, there are no traffic controllers, so even if the sub's masking signature is as low noise level as the true, if the false is finally detected, the true will eventually be figured out and that deduction will be without your knowledge, in other words, if the enemy figured out your mask, he will do whatever he can to convince you of your perceived advantage to keep you in the dark of his advantage.

This is why your friend's claim to have worked on sonar is getting more dubious upon closer examination of his statement that a sub MUST employ masking techniques.