China rolls out red carpet for Sudan president

[Roybot]

That's right, he has been "charged", but not "convicted".

Do you have any special privilege, which allows you to determine whether he is guilty or innocent, BEFORE he is actually convicted of anything?

"Innocent until proven guilty" - What argument do you have against that?

Just cause he is running away from the court doesn't make him innocent, yes it makes him a fugitive. The International Court of Justice doesn't just charge someone of war crimes and genocides, and issues not one but two arrest warrants, based on hearsay you know.

States Parties or the United Nations Security Council may refer situations of crimes within the jurisdiction of the Court to the Prosecutor. The Prosecutor evaluates the available information and commences an investigation unless he determines there is no reasonable basis to proceed. The Prosecutor may also begin an investigation on his own initiative. In doing so, he receives and analyzes information submitted by a variety of reliable sources. If the Prosecutor concludes there is a reasonable basis to proceed with an investigation, he asks a Pre-Trial Chamber to authorize an investigation.

The Prosecutor’s investigations cover all facts and evidence relevant to an assessment of criminal responsibility. The Prosecutor investigates incriminating and exonerating circumstance equally and fully respects the rights of the accused. During the duration of an investigation, each situation is assigned to a Pre-Trial Chamber. The Pre-Trial Chamber is responsible for the judicial aspects of proceedings. Among its functions, the Pre-Trial Chamber, on the application of the Prosecutor, may issue a warrant of arrest or a summons to appear if there are reasonable grounds to believe a person has committed a crime within the jurisdiction of the Court. Once a wanted person has been surrendered to or voluntarily appears before the Court, the Pre-Trial Chamber holds a hearing to confirm the charges that will be the basis of the trial.

ICC - How the Court Works

 

[JayAtl]

Like I said, you arrest him if you want him.

He came to China for business purposes, and he represents his country as senior diplomat.



Yes, he came here because he knows that we don't arrest foreign diplomats, unless they have been convicted under International Law. Otherwise he wouldn't have come in the first place.



Under International Law (and your own laws) he is innocent until proven guilty. Something you have been unable to grasp so far.

Under International law ( ours too) if there is international arrest warrant for someone they get arrested. let alone for genocide ! the larger point is why are doing business with a guy who has arrest warrant for genocide- it's not some small charge - its killing/ responsible for killing 400,000 people!

would you do business with Hitler if he were alive- because he did not get convicted or Osama . just let us know which genocidal maniac would you not do business with LOL- tell us if you have some line one can't step over! Let me guess if he is an Indian general ?

and if can't grasp Innocent till proven guilty - then why do you ask nations to refuse or hand over the Dalia lama?

WHY ask other nations to hand over " accused" but yet innocent till proven guilty?
China asks Canada to hand over accused smuggler
The extradition of a Chinese man from Canada dominated discussions when Prime Minister Jean Chretien held a private meeting with Chinese President Jiang Zemin before the officials start of the Asia-Pacific Economic Sumit Saturday.

Jiang promised Chretien that Lai Changxing, now under house arrest in Vancouver, would not face the death penalty if turned over to Chinese authorities.

Changxing is accused of masterminding a network responsible for smuggling $10 billion US of goods into China.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

Just cause he is running away from the court doesn't make him innocent, yes it makes him a fugitive. The International Court of Justice doesn't just charge someone of war crimes and genocides, and issues not one but two arrest warrants, based on hearsay you know.

I guess you didn't actually read the article in the OP.

The violence also resulted in the war crimes charges against al-Bashir, the first against a sitting head of state until similar charges this week against Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi, who is accused him of crimes against humanity for killing civilians who rose up against his rule.

China is not a member of the court, based in The Hague, Netherlands, and has said the charges accusing al-Bashir of orchestrating atrocities in Sudan's Darfur could cause further instability in the region.

China is not actually member of the ICC, which kind of makes your post irrelevant.

Here is a quick paragraph from wiki, you can research further if you like.

43 United Nations member states have neither signed nor ratified or acceded to the Rome Statute; some of them, including China and India, are critical of the court.

States Parties to the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court

 

[Roybot]

Chinese welcome Bashir with open arms | The Australian

CHINESE leader Hu Jintao has welcomed another leader of a pariah state to the heart of the country's government, feting genocide-accused Sudanese President Omar al-Bashir at Beijing's Great Hall of the People.

Bashir is facing indictment from the International Criminal Court over war crimes charges stemming from fighting in the Darfur region, where as many as 300,000 people are believed to have died since 2003. "We continue to oppose invitations, facilitation, support for travel by ICC indictees," US State Department spokeswoman Victoria Nuland said.

ICC statutes dictate that any member country should arrest Bashir if he visits. China is not a party to those statutes -- nor is the US. New York-based Human Rights Watch described Bashir's trip as "an affront to victims of heinous crimes committed in Darfur" and had urged Beijing to arrest him on arrival.

Amnesty International said earlier this month that China risked becoming a "safe haven for alleged perpetrators of genocide" if it were to host Bashir. "As a friendly country of China, the Sudanese leader's visit to China is quite reasonable," Foreign Ministry spokesman Hong Lei said. The visit follows recent trips to China by North Korean leader Kim Jong-il, where he was met by all nine of China's ruling Politburo Standing Committee, as well as a visit by Burmese dictator Than Shwe.

"I believe your current trip will consolidate and develop the traditional Chinese-Sudanese friendship and promote substantial co-operation in various fields," Mr Hu said. Bashir referred to Mr Hu as "friend and brother" before the leaders signed two technological agreements and a loan deal for a bridge.

The two nations also inked an agreement to "deepen" oil and gas co-operation, China National Petroleum, the country's top oil producer, said in a statement.Beijing had been building ties with the emerging oil rich state of Southern Sudan, which will secede formally on July 9, but continues to be a major supporter of Bashir's regime. Bashir also met China' s National People's Congress chairman Wu Bangguo and Vice-Premier Li Keqiang, who, along with Mr Hu, sits on the Politburo Standing Committee.

In interviews with Chinese media, Bashir warned that the division of Sudan could still go wrong although he gave reassurances about his commitment to a peaceful secession of the south, which China has backed. "'Our policy, and also China's, stands on the principle that each country is free to adopt the procedures and build relations in the manner that preserves its interests and relations," Bashir told China's state-run Xinhua ahead of his trip.

 

[below_freezing]

if he lands in our shores we will... he landed in yours!. what you are doing is snake oil salesman tactics. you know if he is convicted you won't anyhow get to do business with him- because he will be in Jail! Stop with the diplomatic immunity excuse- there is no diplomatic immunity if interpol has warrant for your arrest!

if you catch a mass murderer in china of diplomatic status there are international laws that have clauses that will allow you to try him! and why the hell did you invite him in the first place or even do business with him - he did not have diplomatic immunity to force you do business with a genocidal maniac

see below - diplomat was convicted in the US: Articles about Gueorgui Makharadze - New York Times
"A Georgian diplomat imprisoned for manslaughter in the drunken-driving death three years ago of a 16-year-old girl has been transferred from the United States to serve the rest of his sentence in his homeland, Justice Department officials said today. The diplomat, Gueorgui Makharadze, had been serving a 7- to 21-year sentence in a federal prison. Jovine Waltrick of Kensington, Md., was killed in a five-car pileup at a traffic circle in Washington on Jan. 3, 1997. Prosecutors said Mr. Makharadze was drunk and driving about three times the speed limit."

The US is not a member of the ICC, so it has no power to arrest anyone for the ICC. That, in fact, would be violating US law as it would place the sovereignty of the US below a non-binding, non-ratified international treaty.

 

[Roybot]

I guess you didn't actually read the article in the OP.

Uh I did, whats your point?

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

Uh I did, whats your point?

We have not signed or ratified the ICC treaty, so their resolutions are meaningless for China.

He is a "fugitive" according to the ICC, but that status is not recognized in China, because we are not a part of the ICC. In fact China is often very critical of that organization.

And still, you have not countered my point about the fact that he is innocent until proven guilty. Which is a basic principle of international law.

 

[JayAtl]

The US is not a member of the ICC, so it has no power to arrest anyone for the ICC. That, in fact, would be violating US law as it would place the sovereignty of the US below a non-binding, non-ratified international treaty.

Wrong-- you are forced to arrest him if you are part of ICC but you can still arrest him if you are not a signatory to ICC. No laws are broken if you do- because you chose to respect an international warrant. Next- try again ...

 

[Ryan]

The American president wedged a war against Iraq under the faked cause and killed quite a number of Iraqi civilians. The Indian government has been making lots of its own civilians die of hunger and being very brutal to their Naxalite groups. Still China rolled out welcome doormat to the presidents of the two states. Then, why not the president of Sudan?

 

[JayAtl]

We have not signed or ratified the ICC treaty, so their resolutions are meaningless for China.

He is a "fugitive" according to the ICC, but that status is not recognized in China, because we are not a part of the ICC. In fact China is often very critical of that organization.

And still, you have not countered my point about the fact that he is innocent until proven guilty. Which is a basic principle of international law.

You been countered on the innocent till proven guilty. you were shown where your own country has asked for extradition based on not yet proven guilty but indicted persons. You just chose to keep repeating it in hopes it will all go away.

I have defunct the ICC charge/ excuse in my post above..

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

You been countered on the innocent till proven guilty.

No, you haven't countered anything at all.

China chose to receive him, because we have business ties, the ICC holds no relevance for us, and no one has proven that he is even guilty in the first place.

I suppose you guys can whine, like you did after the Sino-Pakistani nuclear deal, but your governments don't care enough to do anything about it. And by not doing anything, they are giving their tacit support.

 

[Roybot]

We have not signed or ratified the ICC treaty, so their resolutions are meaningless for China.

He is a "fugitive" according to the ICC, but that status is not recognized in China, because we are not a part of the ICC. In fact China is often very critical of that organization.

And still, you have not countered my point about the fact that he is innocent until proven guilty. Which is a basic principle of international law.

Am aware of that, neither is USA or India for that matter. However, the OP didn't say anything about China arresting Bashir. The article and many other similar ones talk about the red carpet treatment given to him in China.

Not to forget that Sudan itself is a signatory, making him a fugitive.

 

[below_freezing]

Am aware of that, neither is USA or India for that matter. However, the OP didn't say anything about China arresting Bashir. The article and many other similar ones talk about the red carpet treatment given to him in China.

George W. Bush killed the same number as Bashir did. We rolled out the red carpet for him. Probably to prevent the dripping blood from his hands from staining the floor.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

Am aware of that, neither is USA or India for that matter. However, the OP didn't say anything about China arresting Bashir. The article and many other similar ones talk about the red carpet treatment given to him in China.

Not to forget that Sudan itself is a signatory.

If he is a foreign diplomat of a nation that we have good ties with, and he has not been convicted of anything, then I don't see why not?

 

[JayAtl]

No, you haven't countered anything at all.

China chose to receive him, because we have business ties, the ICC holds no relevance for us, and no one has proven that he is even guilty in the first place.

I suppose you guys can whine, like you did after the Sino-Pakistani nuclear deal, but your governments don't care enough to do anything about it. And by not doing anything, they are giving their tacit support.

Stubbornness is not righteous in the world's eye. you may convince yourself with excuses- try to deflect to some sino pak nuclear deal rofl but everyone knows that you avoid answering this simple question. If proven till guilty is the standard of arresting someone ( which by itself is absurd in terms of anyones law)- then why did China ask for indicted persons to be handed over by other countries?

not being a part of ICC does not stop you from handing over a man, not doing business with a man who is responsible for 400,000 deaths!