China, Pakistan, Islam

[Jaanbaz]

Good post. Pakistan foreign ministry should use this exact speech later this year when China bans Ramadan fasting again.

Sure. First stop electing mass murderers as your PM.

 

[Lord ZeN]

Sure. First stop electing mass murderers as your PM.

 

[dray]

Too much has been said about the China's Islam "problem", but not many are focusing on the next part of this word puzzle, extremism and separatism. China isn't a fan of religion, that was true in the 1960s, and it's less true today. We must distingush between China against Islam, and China angainst Extremist and Separtists, who happens to be Muslim.

Case and point is that China is also against and won't hesitate to use force against Taiwan, who is ruled by a rival government that BOTH claims to be greater China, exactly like the Confederacy in the US. Taiwan is neither religious nor of a different race.

Separatism and Extremism are the focus of this campaign, it just so happens, some are using religion as a tool.

If I understand the Pakistan, middle east situation correctly, Pakistan and ME countries are also against the extremism of Islam, and certainly separatists.

The continued terriorsm inside both Pakistan and Middle East are also being fought with force, and most importantly, a lot of news I read does say Islamic countries don't recoinize ISIS or any separatists' Islam as being part of the faith.

What's also not mentioned is Uygur celebrities are also coming out in support of government efforts on anti terrorism and the intergration of the Uygur people as a whole. Uygur people's voices are not heard, part of it is because we closed it off, but it's also because they don't want to look in the big cities in Xinjiang, but only those villages that are the breading ground of extremism. If you were to just go into the South of America, you might think America is a nation of cousin kissers and Nazi worshippers.

This is a distinction often left out when certain groups try to paint China as anti Islam. We may not encourage it, but we certainly don't outlaw Islam for the other millions of followers, we have trips that bring people to the Haj every year, and we have official temples and Imans.

We have programs that bring foriegn Imans into China to teach, and we certainly have classes for people to learn their language if they choose to.

The recent banning of Burka, and the cracking down is against the separatists, and the terriorists, not against Islam in general, if that were true, we be cracking down more. remember china is 1.3 billion, we don't have a little bit of anything.

China and Pakistan relationship is bult on the foundation of mutual strategic, economic and political interests. that was true in the 60s, and it's true today. Pakistan opened the way for America and China's renewed "friendship", and China is now investing billions into Pakistan.

We have mutual disdain for terror and separatism, to say the least, which makes our goal very much the same in this field as well, to claim otherwise, you either need to prove Pakistan is not against Separatists and Terrorists, or China is against Islam as a whole rather than the specific people who are using Islam as a tool for separatism and terror.

Unfortunately you have totally misunderstood the whole issue, allow me to point out:

If I understand the Pakistan, middle east situation correctly, Pakistan and ME countries are also against the extremism of Islam, and certainly separatists.

We have mutual disdain for terror and separatism, to say the least, which makes our goal very much the same in this field as well, to claim otherwise, you either need to prove Pakistan is not against Separatists and Terrorists, or China is against Islam as a whole rather than the specific people who are using Islam as a tool for separatism and terror.

Every country on this planet are against terrorism and separatism when it is directed against them, but it would be opposite when the same terrorism and separatism is directed against an enemy country, China and Pakistan are no exceptions.

and China angainst Extremist and Separtists, who happens to be Muslim.

Separatism and Extremism are the focus of this campaign, it just so happens, some are using religion as a tool.

Not really!! Islam is not the 'tool' here, rather 'separatism' and 'extremism' are the tools to ensure exclusivity of Islam in an Islam majority area. Islam is an expansionist religion, and there is always a mandate to establish exclusive Islamic zones, depending upon the numbers and strengths it can be a small area to a whole country, so that Islamic way of life can be practiced unhindered, this is how Islam has grown in last 1400 years, there were also threads here by certain members that described Islamic verses mandating the above. Separatism is an attempt to create that exclusive Islamic zone, and extremism is a way to get it, because you won't give it away for a decently written application demanding separation.

This is a distinction often left out when certain groups try to paint China as anti Islam.

Oh come on! For last few years China is banning Ramadan fasting by Uighur Muslims, burqa is banned, even beard is banned, Muslim kids cannot be taught Islam, there were photos showing that Chinese authorities have hanged Chinese flags inside mosques for god knows why! China is certainly seeing Islam as a threat.

Conclusion:

Officially Islam will not be a problem between China and Pakistan as long as these two countries are seeing mutual gains, but do note that within Pakistan, both among general population and high up in government & military, there are sympathizers of extremists, Taliban, Al Qaeda, Sharia law, and all such things including Uighur Muslims movement, so an unofficial support by certain sections within Pakistan cannot be ruled out at all. For example, Osama Bin Laden was having a relaxed life few hundred meters off Pakistan's military training academy for all those years Pakistan was officially fighting a war against him.

Btw, she is beautiful.

 

[Genesis]

Unfortunately you have totally misunderstood the whole issue, allow me to point out:




Every country on this planet are against terrorism and separatism when it is directed against them, but it would be opposite when the same terrorism and separatism is directed against an enemy country, China and Pakistan are no exceptions.

China and Pakistan are not enemy nations, so this is moot.

Not really!! Islam is not the 'tool' here, rather 'separatism' and 'extremism' are the tools to ensure exclusivity of Islam in an Islam majority area. Islam is an expansionist religion, and there is always a mandate to establish exclusive Islamic zones, depending upon the numbers and strengths it can be a small area to a whole country, so that Islamic way of life can be practiced unhindered, this is how Islam has grown in last 1400 years, there were also threads here by certain members that described Islamic verses mandating the above. Separatism is an attempt to create that exclusive Islamic zone, and extremism is a way to get it, because you won't give it away for a decently written application demanding separation.

China is neither Islamic nor Christian, or even that religious and we have expanded, Rome empire was worshiping pagan gods and they expanded, I'm assuming India didn't get to where it was by being Islamic did it, America went from 13 colonies to now, are Americans Islamic?

We all expand, we love power, we love wealth, and we love prestige. If it's not this, it be something else, we will always have the desire to expand, every single one of us.

India has Maoists, are they Islamic? They could be, I don't know.

Oh come on! For last few years China is banning Ramadan fasting by Uighur Muslims, burqa is banned, even beard is banned, Muslim kids cannot be taught Islam, there were photos showing that Chinese authorities have hanged Chinese flags inside mosques for god knows why! China is certainly seeing Islam as a threat.

Extremists thoughts have came from ME because of the religious "connection," that's why I said Islam as a tool, if Islam is not the tool like you said, then Uygurs are not Arabs, and thus, there should be no similarities there and are as different with them as they are with us.

Islam is a threat the same way a knife is, if someone were to use Islam for what it was intended as a religion for self enlightenment, then it could be a great too, in fact many Han Chinese practice the religion for peace and tranquility. However when used as a tool to spread hatred and violence, then obviously we need to act, and we are limiting to the people most likely to be able to convert.

China is "Against" Islam, the same way India is against knives in public. It's fine if you use it for the billions of things that are done constructively or even stupidly but no harm to others, but if you are to bring a knife to a public place, you are going to jail.

However just because of that, Indian police won't go into your home to arrest you because someone else had a knife in public, but might discourage others of the same persuasion to not do the same thing or even confiscate some. Same thing here, we won't allow Islam to be used as a tool to spread violence, at the same time, we won't stop anyone else from following Ramadan or preying, in fact Beijing air port has quite a few that prey everyday, and police don't care.

Conclusion:

Officially Islam will not be a problem between China and Pakistan as long as these two countries are seeing mutual gains, but do note that within Pakistan, both among general population and high up in government & military, there are sympathizers of extremists, Taliban, Al Qaeda, Sharia law, and all such things including Uighur Muslims movement, so an unofficial support by certain sections within Pakistan cannot be ruled out at all. For example, Osama Bin Laden was having a relaxed life few hundred meters off Pakistan's military training academy for all those years Pakistan was officially fighting a war against him.

I'm going to put this out there, if you are going to say Pakistan sympathies with terror, then I'm going to have to take Pakistan's word that India sponsor terror inside Pakistan and Bangladesh are swarming with RAW agents.

I have no reason to believe India's version more than the others. Especially considering India isn't exactly a shinning beacon of human rights, development, and enlightenment.

If there's one thing Chinese history has taught me is these covert ops are never as clear cut as it seems. Spy agencies are made for the purpose of doing things the president can't be seen doing, for them to do something that can be done in the light is frankly a waste of time and money.

Spies don't lie because they are all lairs, they lie because that's their job. If something can be told truthfully, a politician would take that glory.

 

[dray]

China and Pakistan are not enemy nations, so this is moot.




China is neither Islamic nor Christian, or even that religious and we have expanded, Rome empire was worshiping pagan gods and they expanded, I'm assuming India didn't get to where it was by being Islamic did it, America went from 13 colonies to now, are Americans Islamic?

We all expand, we love power, we love wealth, and we love prestige. If it's not this, it be something else, we will always have the desire to expand, every single one of us.

India has Maoists, are they Islamic? They could be, I don't know.



Extremists thoughts have came from ME because of the religious "connection," that's why I said Islam as a tool, if Islam is not the tool like you said, then Uygurs are not Arabs, and thus, there should be no similarities there and are as different with them as they are with us.

Islam is a threat the same way a knife is, if someone were to use Islam for what it was intended as a religion for self enlightenment, then it could be a great too, in fact many Han Chinese practice the religion for peace and tranquility. However when used as a tool to spread hatred and violence, then obviously we need to act, and we are limiting to the people most likely to be able to convert.

China is "Against" Islam, the same way India is against knives in public. It's fine if you use it for the billions of things that are done constructively or even stupidly but no harm to others, but if you are to bring a knife to a public place, you are going to jail.

However just because of that, Indian police won't go into your home to arrest you because someone else had a knife in public, but might discourage others of the same persuasion to not do the same thing or even confiscate some. Same thing here, we won't allow Islam to be used as a tool to spread violence, at the same time, we won't stop anyone else from following Ramadan or preying, in fact Beijing air port has quite a few that prey everyday, and police don't care.




I'm going to put this out there, if you are going to say Pakistan sympathies with terror, then I'm going to have to take Pakistan's word that India sponsor terror inside Pakistan and Bangladesh are swarming with RAW agents.

I have no reason to believe India's version more than the others. Especially considering India isn't exactly a shinning beacon of human rights, development, and enlightenment.

If there's one thing Chinese history has taught me is these covert ops are never as clear cut as it seems. Spy agencies are made for the purpose of doing things the president can't be seen doing, for them to do something that can be done in the light is frankly a waste of time and money.

Spies don't lie because they are all lairs, they lie because that's their job. If something can be told truthfully, a politician would take that glory.

Ok. And all the best.

 

[Armstrong]

@Genesis - No reply to my post ?

I thought we were Brothers !

 

[Genesis]

@Genesis - No reply to my post ?

I thought we were Brothers !

you didn't disagree with me, lol.

 

[dray]

Why UIghurs want to separate, can anyone list the primary reasons for their seperatism in a coherent manner?

 

[Beast]

I think non-Chinese newspapers are all liars. I found this:

China bans Ramadan fasting in Muslim province - Al Jazeera English

But since countless of these (like BBC, Telegraph and The Independent) non-Chinese media houses are liars, I don't have anything for you to consider my argument. I guess I am gonna have to accept that none of this banning has ever taken place.

Al Jazeera is never an independent news agency. It was bought over by Saudi Royal on behalf of US request to stop bad mouthing US war on terror campaign on middle east. That means it effectively under US control. You see how many the report quote from World Uyghur Congress. Who is extremely anti PRC and resort to malign and draw up rumour.

 

[Jf Thunder]

Btw, she is beautiful.

Bring in the Anti Tharki Brigade

 

[Beast]

Why UIghurs want to separate, can anyone list the primary reasons for their seperatism in a coherent manner?

How are you sure all Uyghur wants separatism from China? Just becos of a few uyghur terrorist who committed those acts? Your theory is as good as all muslim are terrorist and anti-other religion becos of a few extremist.

 

[dray]

How are you sure all Uyghur wants separatism from China? Just becos of a few uyghur terrorist who committed those acts? Your theory is as good as all muslim are terrorist and anti-other religion becos of a few extremist.

Ok, let me rephrase the question:

Why some UIghurs want to separate, can anyone list the primary reasons for their seperatism in a coherent manner?

Bring in the Anti Tharki Brigade

Uh, it was all pletonic!

Btw, though off-topic, but doesn't she look more like an Indian/South Asian?

 

[Jf Thunder]

Uh, it was all pletonic!

Btw, though off-topic, but doesn't she look more like an Indian/South Asian?

she has a fair complexion, while is rare in this region of India/Pakistan/Bangladesh but aside from her complexion she does look like from these parts.

STILL THARKI

 

[Genesis]

Ok, let me rephrase the question:

Why some UIghurs want to separate, can anyone list the primary reasons for their seperatism in a coherent manner?

Not going to lie, life for rural Chinese is hard, there is discrimination, religion does play a role, outside influence, and simply being different(African Americans wanted to separate at one point).

 

[Mujahid Memon]

@Genesis
But the problem starts when they start differentiating between terrorists --1) good terrorists & bad terrorists
2) my terrorist & their terrorists.

They usually fail to realize that a terrorist is a terrorist & should be treated like one. When they all realize this, then most of the problems in ME & Pakistan will be solved. This also requires well co-ordinated efforts by all the governments in that region instead of getting swayed by regional rivalry & sectarianism. China realized this & hence they are really effective in countering terrorism.

why you supported/sponsored terrorists in 1971 ???????

Lies,Lies & yet more Lies.Lets not forget who is the prime funder of terrorism in South Asia & who has waged a proxy war on it's neighbor for 25 years

who waged proxy war 40 yrs ago ?? who invented terrorism in 1971