China may export J-10B fighters with Russian AL31FN-S3 engines to Pakistan

[A2Z]

The dilemma of PAF would arise if India opts for 126 Rafale (as decided originally) then Pakistan will have to decide whether to go for a 4.5 generation or directly for a 5 generation plane because India will eventually have PAK-FA. I believe Pakistan should opt for a good 4.5 generation to counter the likes of MKIs and Rafales because with 5 generation plane even India will have a limited number of them. But PAF will have to up the game if India goes for 126 Rafales, if it relies on F-16 and JF17s then IAF will have a decisive edge in any confrontation

India not going for Rafale is the only thing that is keeping PAF from not going for J-10B. PAF has given signs at times that until IAF goes for Rafale or Eurofighter we wont opt for J-10B. Until then they plan to given thunder as much teeth as possible and then directly jump to 5th generation platform.

 

[IR-TR]

China won't ever sell any Sukhoi derivatives. Simply because that's their unwritten agreement with Russia. China reverse engineered them, and as such can't sell them to anybody (same for their engines). J-10 surely will be exported. And I predict to Pakistan first.

 

[New World]

And why do you think our F-16s and JF-17s wont be armed with such weapons?

how many bvr missiles did a f-16 and jf-17 can carry??

 

[Kakaspai]

China won't ever sell any Sukhoi derivatives. Simply because that's their unwritten agreement with Russia. China reverse engineered them, and as such can't sell them to anybody (same for their engines). J-10 surely will be exported. And I predict to Pakistan first.

i thought j11d was full indigenous.it has Chinese avionics and Chinese engine

 

[IR-TR]

i thought j11d was full indigenous.it has Chinese avionics and Chinese engine

That may be true, but the basic airframe is still a Sukhoi. Russia can tolerate China equipping themselves with it (that means only obstructing Russian exports TO China), but it cannot tolerate China exporting reverse engineered Russian designs (destroying ALL Russian exports to anybody). That's pretty much the unwritten agreement between both nations. So no Sukhoi derivative exports ever. All that will be exported in the foreseeable future are the J-10, J-31 or any other aircraft that the Chinese may design/develop.

 

[abdulbarijan]

how many bvr missiles did a f-16 and jf-17 can carry??

You know.. I thought I wouldn't respond to you ... but then I see posts like these on multiple threads .. and I usually hold back when it comes to brethren but I guess we have to make an exception in your case ...

If China were to arm JH-7's with BVR's and nothing but BVR's -- by your logic it would become the best aircraft in the subcontinent .... atleast in BVR combat ..

BVR arena isn't as simple as that .. I've been following debates surrounding BVR's from the days where discussions were held around the topics of PAF forcing the IAF in to WVR, because we didn't have any "declared" BVR capability at the time .. then there were many rumors of the weapons that are declared stand off A2G weapons ... were actually BVR A2A weapons .. that Pakistan had somehow reverse engineered .... until the AMRAAM deal with the blk-52's was signed and then we had SD-10 with JFT's ...

When your talking about BVR, first off you have to know where your opponent is and then get a lock and fire ... so first step is detection /tracking and then lock and fire ... the factor that you brush off all the time i.e RCS is the basic dictator of when an aircraft is going to be detected along with the radar that you field ... as far as the general calculations go .. SU-30 MKI's will see F-16's / JFT's around the same range as the F-16's/JFT's will detect/track the MKI's .. then it comes down to your weapons .. carrying capability matters but then again .. what type of weapon you have matters a heck of a lot more ... With Aim-120 C5 and SD-10 A, we have very credible BVR weaponry .. you can go about and see senior members and professionals and usually when the discussion is whats the best BVR pound for pound in the subcontinent ... the usual inclination is towards the AMRAAM, and by whats already in the public domain ... SD-10 A isn't far behind and it already has another version coming out soon enough ... the last thing you have to have is .. how much time will the BVR fight even last -- you have two aircrafts that detect each other at 120 odd Km's and fire at 40 Km range to maximize the capability of their weapons ... if both the weapons fail ... what will be the time frame in which they get in to WVR ... mere seconds if you know a little of relative velocity -- though we learned it back in the good old days where you had matric and not these goody toshoo O levels stuff ...

So what happens to a a bigger aircraft, that is granted ... more maneuverable --- but you have on the other hand aircrafts that are alot easier to fly in the hands of an airforce ... whose breakfast, lunch and dinner is about WVR ... because we didn't really have anything to work with back 5-7 years ... hence the extra focus on WVR and the results show .. when the likes of F-22 pilots from USAF are out parsing the PAF pilots on how good and battle hardened they are (we were using PG's in those exercises (indus viper I think) .. that is correct the freakin F-7 PG!!!) ---so you can figure out the rest by yourself ...

There is a huge list of cognitive biases ... which includes something called "anchoring bias" in which a person usually values a piece of information alot more then the "whole picture" --

so I urge you to see the whole picture and maybe look around and see a couple discussions from senior members around the topic ... You can find alot on the information pool thread of JF-17, the exercises thread, the thread on F-16 and the JF-17 multi role thread ...

 

[MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n]

You know I like the posts of criticism on these defense matters and have criticized myself on some of the things that I found illogical and such but after Mastan Sahib has done 2-3 odd threads pointing out some factors ... seems as if being a "harsh critic" is now in fashion on PDF ... Now don't get me wrong ... I respect Mastan sahib's opinions, because of the simple fact that he actually expands upon what he believes and all that ...

and then there are critics like yourself --- whose entire post is like "ohh MKI has BVR -- what will we do" --- Do read up a little on here -- because the arguments you present are frankly laughable ...

First off your going about 230 MKI's as if IAF is going to launch 230 MKI's in one strike -- completely disregarding the fact that they have a future super power to worry about at one front .. and then they have to worry about the nuclear threshold, the times have changed to a point where India has lost its biggest weapon i.e numerical superiority as it becomes a non factor because crossing a certain threshold means jumping in to hell -- literally ...

Secondly -- the defensive doctrine of PAF is such that it has to maintain a 3:1 ratio with the IAF to meet the challenges ... and that we are ... as for your SU-30 MKI being almighty and powerful -- seems like you have been too much on IDF or BR .. look what happened to the almighty MKI at red flag 08 where it became the breakfast, lunch and dinner of the 15's and 16's ...

this defensive doctrine is no less than digging ditches for our nation ...
and this 3:1 ratio is no joke , can a single man fight against 3 others and that too more stronger & faster ...?

 

[abdulbarijan]

this defensive doctrine is no less than digging ditches for our nation ...
and this 3:1 ratio is no joke , can a single man fight against 3 others and that too more stronger & faster ...?

by your logic .. numerical superiority is everything .. tactics, the conditions under which a battle takes place, the fact that there are other players in the immediate region whose stakes are directly involved in our land etc etc ... means nothing ..

refer to what happened to the Soviet Union at the hands of Finland in world war II and thats before nukes ever got in the picture ... and the basic goal of the fins was to last enough time until allies come to help them out ... even though they ultimately lost --- the made the myth of the "almighty soviets" in to a mockery .... Infact lets remain on air war PAF itself has demonstrated that it can hold its own fighting under much worse then these 3:1 conditions against the very same IAF in 65 and 71 ... Many nations have demonstrated that if you use your resources carefully and are intelligent and aware of the opponents weaknesses and are able to exploit them you can not only last against a bigger opponent ... but whoop their behinds ...

But then again... when you have a budget which is many times smaller then what you counter part is having, don't expect the same numbers, the same level of technology -- the best thing one can hope for is the smart use of the funds at hand ...

 

[CAPRICORN-88]

That may be true, but the basic airframe is still a Sukhoi. Russia can tolerate China equipping themselves with it (that means only obstructing Russian exports TO China), but it cannot tolerate China exporting reverse engineered Russian designs (destroying ALL Russian exports to anybody). That's pretty much the unwritten agreement between both nations. So no Sukhoi derivative exports ever. All that will be exported in the foreseeable future are the J-10, J-31 or any other aircraft that the Chinese may design/develop.

You may have a point there although the J11B series is a completely different plane apart from the outlook e.g. J11B is slightly smaller in dimension hence the component parts for J11B will not fitted into the SU27 or SU30.

But who knows J11B series is still evolving and soon a completely new redesigned J11B series variant will appeared and be exported. How about the J-21 aka J31 stealth fighter?

 

[IR-TR]

You may have a point there although the J11B series is a completely different plane apart from the outlook e.g. J11B is slightly smaller in dimension hence the component parts for J11B will not fitted into the SU27 or SU30.

But who knows J11B series is still evolving and soon a completely new redesigned J11B series variant will appeared and be exported. How about the J-21 aka J31 stealth fighter?

The J-31 will be exported, but that will be a long while, although perhaps comparable with the Indian Pak-FA variant's development timeline. Although the Pak-FA should be superior to it (like India's flankers are superior to F-16s today). All in all, I see a good sized J-10 (modern) fleet in Pakistan's air force, and later on J-31s too. No J-11/16s. Because of the Russia deal. Russia and China are 'buddies', but that will go away when China takes over Russia's last bastion (arms exports).

 

[Tipu7]

You know.. I thought I wouldn't respond to you ... but then I see posts like these on multiple threads .. and I usually hold back when it comes to brethren but I guess we have to make an exception in your case ...

If China were to arm JH-7's with BVR's and nothing but BVR's -- by your logic it would become the best aircraft in the subcontinent .... atleast in BVR combat ..

BVR arena isn't as simple as that .. I've been following debates surrounding BVR's from the days where discussions were held around the topics of PAF forcing the IAF in to WVR, because we didn't have any "declared" BVR capability at the time .. then there were many rumors of the weapons that are declared stand off A2G weapons ... were actually BVR A2A weapons .. that Pakistan had somehow reverse engineered .... until the AMRAAM deal with the blk-52's was signed and then we had SD-10 with JFT's ...

When your talking about BVR, first off you have to know where your opponent is and then get a lock and fire ... so first step is detection /tracking and then lock and fire ... the factor that you brush off all the time i.e RCS is the basic dictator of when an aircraft is going to be detected along with the radar that you field ... as far as the general calculations go .. SU-30 MKI's will see F-16's / JFT's around the same range as the F-16's/JFT's will detect/track the MKI's .. then it comes down to your weapons .. carrying capability matters but then again .. what type of weapon you have matters a heck of a lot more ... With Aim-120 C5 and SD-10 A, we have very credible BVR weaponry .. you can go about and see senior members and professionals and usually when the discussion is whats the best BVR pound for pound in the subcontinent ... the usual inclination is towards the AMRAAM, and by whats already in the public domain ... SD-10 A isn't far behind and it already has another version coming out soon enough ... the last thing you have to have is .. how much time will the BVR fight even last -- you have two aircrafts that detect each other at 120 odd Km's and fire at 40 Km range to maximize the capability of their weapons ... if both the weapons fail ... what will be the time frame in which they get in to WVR ... mere seconds if you know a little of relative velocity -- though we learned it back in the good old days where you had matric and not these goody toshoo O levels stuff ...

So what happens to a a bigger aircraft, that is granted ... more maneuverable --- but you have on the other hand aircrafts that are alot easier to fly in the hands of an airforce ... whose breakfast, lunch and dinner is about WVR ... because we didn't really have anything to work with back 5-7 years ... hence the extra focus on WVR and the results show .. when the likes of F-22 pilots from USAF are out parsing the PAF pilots on how good and battle hardened they are (we were using PG's in those exercises (indus viper I think) .. that is correct the freakin F-7 PG!!!) ---so you can figure out the rest by yourself ...

There is a huge list of cognitive biases ... which includes something called "anchoring bias" in which a person usually values a piece of information alot more then the "whole picture" --

so I urge you to see the whole picture and maybe look around and see a couple discussions from senior members around the topic ... You can find alot on the information pool thread of JF-17, the exercises thread, the thread on F-16 and the JF-17 multi role thread ...

Compared to Rafael...... what is RCS value of J10b.......?

 

[New World]

You know.. I thought I wouldn't respond to you ... but then I see posts like these on multiple threads .. and I usually hold back when it comes to brethren but I guess we have to make an exception in your case ...

If China were to arm JH-7's with BVR's and nothing but BVR's -- by your logic it would become the best aircraft in the subcontinent .... atleast in BVR combat ..

BVR arena isn't as simple as that .. I've been following debates surrounding BVR's from the days where discussions were held around the topics of PAF forcing the IAF in to WVR, because we didn't have any "declared" BVR capability at the time .. then there were many rumors of the weapons that are declared stand off A2G weapons ... were actually BVR A2A weapons .. that Pakistan had somehow reverse engineered .... until the AMRAAM deal with the blk-52's was signed and then we had SD-10 with JFT's ...

When your talking about BVR, first off you have to know where your opponent is and then get a lock and fire ... so first step is detection /tracking and then lock and fire ... the factor that you brush off all the time i.e RCS is the basic dictator of when an aircraft is going to be detected along with the radar that you field ... as far as the general calculations go .. SU-30 MKI's will see F-16's / JFT's around the same range as the F-16's/JFT's will detect/track the MKI's .. then it comes down to your weapons .. carrying capability matters but then again .. what type of weapon you have matters a heck of a lot more ... With Aim-120 C5 and SD-10 A, we have very credible BVR weaponry .. you can go about and see senior members and professionals and usually when the discussion is whats the best BVR pound for pound in the subcontinent ... the usual inclination is towards the AMRAAM, and by whats already in the public domain ... SD-10 A isn't far behind and it already has another version coming out soon enough ... the last thing you have to have is .. how much time will the BVR fight even last -- you have two aircrafts that detect each other at 120 odd Km's and fire at 40 Km range to maximize the capability of their weapons ... if both the weapons fail ... what will be the time frame in which they get in to WVR ... mere seconds if you know a little of relative velocity -- though we learned it back in the good old days where you had matric and not these goody toshoo O levels stuff ...

So what happens to a a bigger aircraft, that is granted ... more maneuverable --- but you have on the other hand aircrafts that are alot easier to fly in the hands of an airforce ... whose breakfast, lunch and dinner is about WVR ... because we didn't really have anything to work with back 5-7 years ... hence the extra focus on WVR and the results show .. when the likes of F-22 pilots from USAF are out parsing the PAF pilots on how good and battle hardened they are (we were using PG's in those exercises (indus viper I think) .. that is correct the freakin F-7 PG!!!) ---so you can figure out the rest by yourself ...

There is a huge list of cognitive biases ... which includes something called "anchoring bias" in which a person usually values a piece of information alot more then the "whole picture" --

so I urge you to see the whole picture and maybe look around and see a couple discussions from senior members around the topic ... You can find alot on the information pool thread of JF-17, the exercises thread, the thread on F-16 and the JF-17 multi role thread ...

bhai, me tou bs ye jan'na chahta tha k f-16 aur f-17 kitne bvr missile carry kar sakty confirmation k lye..
is lye maine @A2Z se sawal kya..... lekin app ne tou puri raam katha suna de bina jawab dye..

 

[abdulbarijan]

Compared to Rafael...... what is RCS value of J10b.......?

We used to have a good thread back in the days about situational awareness ... I think it was "RCS of different fighters" .. You might need to do some digging but the thread is a good one ... plus do refer to Gambits posts on RCS to get a better grip of the concept...

First off, RCS of a single fighter differs ... depends on the direction ... to put it in simple terms that the like of us can get ... the frontal RCS of a fighter is different ... the RCS of the sides is different etc etc... but usually the standard is the frontal RCS ...

As far as the figures go .. I read it somewhere, perhaps the same thread I was talking about previously, that the RCS for thee rafale is 1/10th of Mirage 2000 so that would be 0.1 m2 frontal RCS ... As far as the J-10 B goes, I don't know of any figures that have been floating ... but from the Chinese forums we do know that the J-11 B in clean configuration has a RCS of 3m2 ... while the original SU-27's are in excess of 15m2 RCS ... and RCS reduction on J-10B has been claimed ... so you can draw your own conclusions there ...

But then again, with such 4th generation aircrafts where you have weapons and fuel tanks outside the body, the RCS rises quite a bit ...

bhai, me tou bs ye jan'na chahta tha k f-16 aur f-17 kitne bvr missile carry kar sakty confirmation k lye..
is lye maine @A2Z se sawal kya..... lekin app ne tou puri raam katha suna de bina jawab dye..

F-16 can carry around 6 odd AMRAAMS, while JF-17 in current configurations is supposed to carry two -- and with multi-ejector racks will be able to carry 4 SD-10's ....

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

The next few year we will see the emergence of a different kind of aircraft. A re-furbished 3 gen aircraft with the technology and weapons of the 4 and 4.5 gen aircraft. We are actually seeing some of them now.

The KFIR with and aesa upgrade------the BLK 52 F 16 with an aesa upgrade----the mirage 2000 with an aesa upgrade----the JH7B with an aesa upgrade.

All these aircraft will get the state of the art avionics, radars, jammers and missiles and smart bombs. 5th gen aircraft are extremely expensive to manufacture---maintain and operate---so these older updated aircraft will do most of the leg work.

Right now we can only speculate---but with the high kill ratios of these modern day BVR missiles---it will not be very easy to assess what the first couple of days of air war look like.

The Tornados could launch WVR range missiles as well as BVR missiles----along with their regular weapons load----this just gave them some tools to fight back with.

The problem over here is with coming to grips with the technology---the conventional wisdom takes technology only so far----after that they just don't want to accept its powers and strengths.

So---let us put two aircraft side by side---A J11 and a JH7B-----both aircraft have the same aesa radar---bth have the same number of SD10B BVR missiles-----both are facing a similar oncoming target at the same distance-----both are going to launch at the same time---so why would the results are going to be different---no reason to under similar circumstances---because it is the radar lock and the missile doing the talking and not the aircraft---which is just a conduit of delivery at BVR.

 

[Viper0011.]

As far as the figures go .. I read it somewhere, perhaps the same thread I was talking about previously, that the RCS for thee rafale is 1/10th of Mirage 2000 so that would be 0.1 m2 frontal RCS ...

and RCS reduction on J-10B has been claimed

1) Rafale's RCS isn't .1m2. Its much more than that. Rafale is a twin engine plane......the comparison with a Mirage 2000, was: (1): for marketing, and (2): frontal only.
US radars (TPS 77) and other advanced Chinese radars Pakistan has, are 3-D. Frontal RCS means nothing......try about .7m2 for Rafale, which is still very good for its size. If you were flying against Sudan or Nigeria or Bogota, you might get .1m2 due to older radars being used.

2) The J-10B has around .8m2 to 1m2, depending on the configuration (I am quoting A2A and frontal only). Add heavier bombs or anti-ship missiles, it adds up an additional 1.5m2 or slightly above. So overall, around 2m2-3m2, depending upon the loadout. J-10A has a bigger RCS around 4-5m2.