China is the fulcrum of Pakistan's National Security Policy

[blain2]

Did you watch the video? Do note a significant faction of Pakistani populace loves the west (as all Chinese should've experienced here in PDF) just like India does, they will and can choose the west any time. Our two nations are pulled together by convergence of geo-economic interests aka the BRI or CPEC, and pushed together by common threat from India. But on China vs west, Pakistan will at best stay neutral, this is a choice.

Till the west has control of international monetary institutions and the world's economy is pegged to the west, it leaves little choice for Pakistan to abandon the west. This is realpolitik. This does not mean that Pakistan's policy makers are looking to not have strategic ties with China if they had the western option. Throughout the honeymoon periods of Pakistan-US relations, Pakistan has always made sure that its relations with China were not impacted.

This is the reality of a smaller power having to maneuver between two larger powers. So while it is a choice, it is a forced one or one of compulsion.

 

[Shotgunner51]

China and USA are bound to return to normal

No way, not even the slightest chance. Nazism is rising in US, as a reaction Nationalism is rising in China, the hate is increasingly deep rooted among the mainstream populace on both sides. This compounded with the reckless dollar printing & skyrocketing US debt, the relationship has way passed the point of no return.

Pakistan ... a bridge connecting China and USA

It's more like maintaining a back channel to minimize miscalculation or misadventure. China-Pakistan alliance is about regional prosperity and deterrence against Indian threat, not about US.

 

[AMG_12]

I did my bit for China-Pakistan strategic relations by engaging a Mainland Chinese girl.

 

[retaxis]

No way, not even the slightest chance. The hate is increasingly deep rooted among the populace, it has way passed the point of no return.

It's more like maintaining a back channel to minimize miscalculation or misadventure. China-Pakistan alliance is about regional prosperity and deterrence against Indian threat, not about US.

American demographics are changing heavily in favour of hispanic and blacks because they immigrate to america and have big families. Hispanics and blacks don't give a sh1t about China in fact most respect China. I think China and America will have similar relations to China and Brazil/Mexico in the future.

 

[TheSolution]

I did my bit for China-Pakistan strategic relations by engaging a Mainland Chinese girl.

Was the engagement strategic?

 

[Shotgunner51]

American demographics are changing heavily in favour of hispanic and blacks because they immigrate to america and have big families. Hispanics and blacks don't give a sh1t about China in fact most respect China. I think China and America will have similar relations to China and Brazil/Mexico in the future.

That's the best outcome, but that's also based on the assumption that US debt (or US dollar as international reserve currency) gets a gradual & soft landing peacefully. That's a very big assumption my friend.

 

[MH.Yang]

No way, not even the slightest chance. Nazism is rising in US, as a reaction Nationalism is rising in China, the hate is increasingly deep rooted among the mainstream populace on both sides. This compounded with the reckless dollar printing & skyrocketing US debt, the relationship has way passed the point of no return.

It's more like maintaining a back channel to minimize miscalculation or misadventure. China-Pakistan alliance is about regional prosperity and deterrence against Indian threat, not about US.

There is no unresolved hatred between China and USA. Korean War? Neither side is a loser. Siege of the International Legations war? The Chinese hate the incompetence of the Qing govt, and USA is not the main enemy. On the contrary, China and the USA have been allies for most of history, even it is not only a military alliance, but also an economic alliance.

Although the so-called hatred between China and USA at this stage masks the disguise of ideology, in the final analysis, it is the competition for economic interests, that is, the problem of money. This hatred originates from money, so when all the competition results, the two countries will inevitably come together because of money.

Because the economic foundations of the two countries are complementary. The cooperation between the two countries is a historical inevitability, and the quarrel is a historical contingency.

 

[satyamev]

A very good discussion.
Only thing I would add is that extreme positions are not needed.
Pakistan doesn't have to hate the west to prove its loyalty to the Chinese.
Even the Chinese understand the attraction the west ,with its standard of living has for any developing country.
The Pakistan governments understood this well and maintained ok relations with both.
Though now I am not too sure where this government is headed.
Ofcourse as a Indian I would prefer that so much energy and attention of 2 countries was not focused on us , but that's something we can't control, can only react to it.

Pakistan is our neighbor, it has a population of 200 million, and it is a transportation hub connecting Central Asia, South Asia, East Asia, the Middle East and the Indian Ocean. The history of mankind will be very long, and we also need to get along with the Pakistani people for a long time, so we must become good friends with the Pakistani people.
Now we are indeed friends with the Pakistani people. But now the friendship is not stable, because our friendship is based on military and strategy, there is a lack of sufficient economic ties and interest binding between us. Economic relations determine political relations, and political relations determine military relations. Our relationship with Pakistan is that military relations affect political relations, and political relations affect economic relations. This is an opposite causality, which is unreliable, so we need to establish more economic ties through CPEC.
The relationship between Pakistan and USA is not a problem. In the near future, China and USA are indeed in a period of strategic competition, and the relationship between China and USA is not good. But in the long run, the economic foundations of China and USA complement each other, once the fields of competition between the two sides produce results, China and USA are bound to return to normal. On the contrary, the economic foundations of USA and India are actually in conflict, the only common interest of both sides is China, which is unreliable. With the development of Indian economy, the relationship between USA and India will break up sooner or later. India's true and reliable ally is Russia, which is complementary to India's economic base.
China should position its relations with Pakistan as a "bridge". A bridge connecting China and the Indian Ocean, a bridge connecting China and the Islamic world, and a bridge connecting China and USA. So we need Pakistan to be more open and proactive in international politics, rather than choosing sides between China and USA.

View attachment 814982

you were doing well but then you slyly inserted a imaginary India usa split. Carry on.

 

[Shotgunner51]

Korean War

China and the USA have been allies for most of history

Citing such contradicting statements in one single paragraph, let alone knowing PRC is US ally during most of 70+ years of history, that's refreshing I must say.

Although the so-called hatred between China and USA at this stage masks the disguise of ideology, in the final analysis, it is the competition for economic interests, that is, the problem of money

There is no unresolved hatred between China and USA

Another pair

This hatred originates from money, so when all the competition results, the two countries will inevitably come together because of money.

Third pair, and stunning logic

Because the economic foundations of the two countries are complementary

One is printing greenbacks for real goods, the other one is making real goods for greenbacks.

 

[khansaheeb]

It is a choice out of no choice.

Always good to have a big brother on our side!

 

[Maula Jatt]

Always good to have a big brother on our side!

Just brother... "Big" is insulting and sounds hegomonic

 

[Last starfighter]

they'll try to as much as they can unless US pushes pak into a corner of "choosing"
where you know choice is obvious

(also PDF isn't exactly representitive of Pak society as many are from Pak-western diaspora)

And many are not PAK at all
Yanks and bendians

 

[Shotgunner51]

Ofcourse as a Indian I would prefer that so much energy and attention of 2 countries was not focused on us , but that's something we can't control, can only react to it.

No offence to you personally, but on topic, it's always India at the core of Pakistan's national security policy, and India is also becoming an integral part of China's west-centric security concern. For China-Pakistan, it's not just the BRI/CPEC under Indian threat but more, say territorial integrity, terrorism/separatism, SLOC disruption (vital to economy), even nuclear misadventure (Indian stockpile is atomic/fission only but still can inflict 1MT damage). I think the newly published NSP 2022~2026 should address how the two militaries are going to mitigate or preempt these threats, say setting up joint command for combined forces. We must take actions before it's too late.

 

[satyamev]

No offence to you personally, but on topic, it's always India at the core of Pakistan's national security policy, and India is also becoming an integral part of China's west-centric security concern. For China-Pakistan, it's not just the BRI/CPEC under Indian threat but more, say territorial integrity, terrorism/separatism, SLOC disruption (vital to economy), even nuclear misadventure (Indian stockpile is atomic/fission only but still can inflict damage). I think the newly published NSP 2022~2026 should address how the two militaries are going to mitigate or preempt these threats, say setting up joint command for combined forces. We must take actions before it's too late.

frankly most Indians don't even understand the Indian obsession in Pakistan.
Modi is a convenient scapegoat now but he came into power in 2016 , the Congress was in power for most of the other 75 years. All our conflicts and bad blood were under the liberal Congress rule.
Pragmatically China would be stupid not to use the indo pak animosity to advance its strategic goals , which are mostly economic.
I feel the recent friction between China and India is a gambit to divert India from its economic goals and Pakistan ofcourse is a ever ready participant.
But in the process Pakistan is feeling the blowback both from the west and India.
How a country can allow its own interests to be so easily compromised is mystifying ?

 

[Shotgunner51]

frankly most Indians don't even understand the Indian obsession in Pakistan.
Modi is a convenient scapegoat now but he came into power in 2016 , the Congress was in power for most of the other 75 years. All our conflicts and bad blood were under the liberal Congress rule.
Pragmatically China would be stupid not to use the indo pak animosity to advance its strategic goals , which are mostly economic.
I feel the recent friction between China and India is a gambit to divert India from its economic goals and Pakistan ofcourse is a ever ready participant.
But in the process Pakistan is feeling the blowback both from the west and India.
How a country can allow its own interests to be so easily compromised is mystifying ?

Most Chinese including myself know little about Indian politics so I can't comment much, what we've seen is the widespread loyalty towards the west and extreme hostility towards China & Pakistan in mainstream India (government, media, social app, etc), let alone physical conflicts. You are right, economy is the ultimate goal, and a prosperous regional economic future can't be achieved in a dangerous presence. That's why in my opinion actions should be taken asap for the sake of all peace-loving people in the region, not to cure the symptoms but to eradicate root of the problem.