China is rushing to put railguns on warships, but the superguns are likely worthless in a war

[powastick]

The answer is in between this two illustration.

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I'm pretty sure railgun are beyond line of sight weapons.

 

[lcloo]

I'm pretty sure railgun are beyond line of sight weapons.

Yes you are right. I slipped on that one.

CG illustration on how a rail gun would be fitted on 12,000 tons type 055B destroyer.

 

[jhungary]

Yeah, keep your wishful thinking for yourself, this is not about Zumwalt, this is China railguns thread, unless you have information about it, you just attempting to derailed this thread. You still want discuss your beloved Zumwalt, make your own thread, and go discuss somewhere else!

Actually, you should applies what you said to this very same thread

"Unless you have concrete proof that both Railgun and 055 are operational" you are doing nothing more than your lot accused the Indian is doing. And that is bragging on something WIHTOUT it having been made.

And what's funny to me is the fact that You aren't even Chinese to begin with, as I said, I am more Chinese than you ever have, at least they give me a Chinese passport for whatever reason lol

I am not an expert in ship building but US appears over confident and lack patience when it comes to developing new weapons system. They do not spend enough time testing and debugging new weapons system. They always rush straight into production without properly designing out the bugs. Not only Zummalt, even your litoral combat ship have the same problem. Not to mention the F35, the new aircraft carrier arresting gear and electromagnetic launch system.

In manufacturing this process is called something like "Designing in" the Quality.

I doubt any new generation destroyer would be any different.

Every new design would suffer a setback stage, you are talking about new design, not something that currently exist and you simply modified and upgrade it.

To which end, Zumwalt is on a scale that the world had never seen before, and to which, it will spend more time in debugging stage than other ship that was just passing by the yards (like Arleigh Burke Class destroyer) on the other hand, the technology for Zumwalt is already mature, the development/debugging stage is over, and you can expect the 2nd and the 3rd (Which one is waiting to be commission this month and the other end of this year) would be learning from the first one (which take almost 3 years to complete sea trial.

And in "reality" the "Design in" effect does not exist, because where you have a paper solution to the real world problem, if "designing in" is actually something of a factor in real life, then new aircraft would not be having accident or new ship would never sink or have problem, which is an absurd assumption to put in the manufacturing process.

Fact also remains (no. 4)... Facts dont really matter here in CPC stronk subforum.

Fact also remains (no 5)....vast hordes of CPC stronk ppl here are just deep down mad/bitter/envious that if it weren't for the US, they would likely be talking japanese and pretty much be japanese if they were even alive now (and simply had a different kind of cultural revolution that make them forget/ignore different parts of history/reality).

This at its root leads to all the complexes they have now....and why they have to clamour to compare and stronk no.1 whenever possible (regardless of how much sense it actually makes on the issue).

Its simply because some countries get genuine respect without asking for it.....others constantly desire and cry for it (with stronk tears and wails) but do not genuinely receive it from anyone. Add insulated, anti-social princeling complex to it...and it is a very plain and boring rancour of yelling the same thing repeatedly without actual thought process....emboldened by the systemic favoritism heaped on them by the forces that be here.

Add to all of that even some more.... clear over-delivery of promise as to what will be done to opponents/adversaries physically ...and clear vast under-delivery of it over time. That gnaws at them even more (especially given they go all in with the buffer afforded to them here...in spewing that its the case only with other non-middle kingdom countries, not theirs)...and thus causes the cycle to keep repeating, just louder each time.

They are quite amusing in the dullness in the end....sharp wit/creative retort/debate is not honed/projected/sustained as a talent of theirs...and add to that....this forum literally makes them look even more dumb in the end by letting "nuke everyone/mass genocide" princeling character run amok at his fancy (which only happens because of his nationality). Like literally giving a super special kid crayons to keep sticking up his nose as hard as possible (instead of potty training and enforced discipline)....thinking that will somehow change everyones impression of his lot (indulge the stupidity even more, so it bends under its own weight to come full circle with witty intelligence?...an amusing, novel idea I suppose).

Like do they literally have no higher reasoning on the actual reality of what actually everyone else thinks of this behaviour and the tacit dbl standard encouragement?

Very small handful of quality, reasonable Chinese posters are worth engaging with now because of it....there is clearly "two camps"...one much larger than the other. Quite sad given the size of China....those camp sizes shouldnt be so different.

@Viet @Viva_Viet @gambit @VCheng @Hamartia Antidote @KAL-EL @Joe Shearer @padamchen @Vergennes @Desert Fox @The Sandman @Psychic

lol, these people have a very simple mind. "If Chinese build something, then there are credit to the Chinese"

A smart people will not "reinvent the wheel" per se, from what I am seeing, and where I have information on, Railgun project does not offer much edge over the current 5 inch naval gun system. Yes, you can shoot a round further and faster, however, at the current technology level, if a ship can afford to fire a 32Kj rail gun (which is a bit better than a 120mm tank gun in damage and slightly lower than 8 In naval gun damage) you would already have to draw much more than you can give, thus, until this problem is solved, this render the whole project useless.

And then the naval adaptation of railgun in itself is a flaw concept to begin with, because railgun is an unguided projectile, which mean at most point, you aren't going to use them against any ship to begin with, and where they are limited on land bombardment, and the power of these gun modern ship can afford is seriously limited to begin with, which give the railgun less edge than sea base cruise missile, which literally can travel further, hit smarter, and does more damage on target. Again, thus, rendering the railgun useless.

However, for most Chinese poster, all these is ignored, mostly because they don't even know how or what railgun is for to begin with, and they simply seeing "this" and hailed it as an achievement. For me, if I am the chief Scientist in China involved in the railgun project, I probably wouldn't bother to drop money for its development until at least the energy problem is sorted, I mean, what is the point spending billions of dollars just to get stuck like the US did back in 2008.

Kind of sick an tired to discuss with these uninformed bunch, and lately I have several case for me where I have absolutely no time to come up on here frequently to begin with, I am thinking of retiring from this forum altogether.

 

[nahtanbob]

Don't equate all others to be spineless like Indians who lost the whole continent to just 3000 British East India Company soldiers.
Unless Japan convert to be Chinese like the Mongols and the Manchurians did, they can never rule China.
Japan and China war took 8 long years and may take longer without the US but the conclusion will always be defeat for the Japanese.
If the dumb Japanese were smart, they could have won if they speak Chinese and rule as Chinese.
In that case Japan would have gained the vast land, resources and manpower to rule the world.

The US should thank their God that the Chinese held down 1 million of the Japanese military and resources in a long drawn war.

https://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/18/opinion/the-worlds-wartime-debt-to-china.html
The World’s Wartime Debt to China
.

even if the chinese joined the japanese war effort what chance does japan have against the nukes ? USA would have delivered dozen nukes on japanese cities by the end of 1945

 

[sinait]

even if the chinese joined the japanese war effort what chance does japan have against the nukes ? USA would have delivered dozen nukes on japanese cities by the end of 1945

We may never know.
China Japan war started in 1937 and lasted 8 years instead of 3 months that the Japanese envisaged.
China not so "sick man of Asia" after all.
Better luck if Japan targeted India instead.

Japan with China would give the Japanese huge resources, manpower and vast lands.
Japan could then give support and resources to the Axis Alliance instead of having around a million men bogged down in China, losing men and expending huge resources.
Japan could very well be at the doorstep of the USA instead and all Europe would be speaking German.

So yet again. below statement is TRUE.
https://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/18/opinion/the-worlds-wartime-debt-to-china.html
The World’s Wartime Debt to China
.

 

[nahtanbob]

We may never know.
China Japan war started in 1937 and lasted 8 years instead of 3 months that the Japanese envisaged.
China not so "sick man of Asia" after all.
Better luck if Japan targeted India instead.

Japan with China would give the Japanese huge resources, manpower and vast lands.
Japan could then give support and resources to the Axis Alliance instead of having around a million men bogged down in China, losing men and expending huge resources.
Japan could very well be at the doorstep of the USA instead and all Europe would be speaking German.

So yet again. below statement is TRUE.
https://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/18/opinion/the-worlds-wartime-debt-to-china.html
The World’s Wartime Debt to China
.

Without naval or air superiority no one can cross the Pacific or Atlantic to conquer USA. Japanese troops not being bogged down in China does not help on both counts. USA had air superiority in WW 2. Japanese naval aviation from aircraft carriers and German U-boats were closest threats to US naval dominance. The American navy won both the battles rather easily.

China or no China - The Imperial Navy had no answer to the island hopping strategy employed by the US Navy. Imperial Army could have extra 1 million soldiers. If you cannot transport them to the island where the battles are being waged what good are they ?

The other possibility those Japanese troops could be used in attack on British India. I have no idea how that would have panned out.

USA was on path to build three hundred nukes by end of 1948. I do not see Japan or China surviving 300 nuclear strikes. I can see the most of the hardcore Japanese militarists raising the white flag after a dozen strikes. That would have happened by the end of 1945.

Having said all that it was nice to have China on our side.

 

[sinait]

Without naval or air superiority no one can cross the Pacific or Atlantic to conquer USA. Japanese troops not being bogged down in China does not help on both counts. USA had air superiority in WW 2. Japanese naval aviation from aircraft carriers and German U-boats were closest threats to US naval dominance. The American navy won both the battles rather easily.

China or no China - The Imperial Navy had no answer to the island hopping strategy employed by the US Navy. Imperial Army could have extra 1 million soldiers. If you cannot transport them to the island where the battles are being waged what good are they ?

The other possibility those Japanese troops could be used in attack on British India. I have no idea how that would have panned out.

USA was on path to build three hundred nukes by end of 1948. I do not see Japan or China surviving 300 nuclear strikes. I can see the most of the hardcore Japanese militarists raising the white flag after a dozen strikes. That would by the end of 1945.

Having said all that it was nice to have China on our side.

You are talking about what happened to Japan without the HUGE manpower and resources that a subdued China could provide to the Japan from 1937 onwards so they can concentrate on other fronts.
With China on Japan's side there is also no need to bomb Pearl Harbor.
The possibilities are too much to discuss here, as well as being pointless.

I believe the Chinese are not very particular who sits on the throne as long as they declare they rule with the Chinese "mandate from heaven" and maybe have to look East Asian.
So the Japanese could have achieved their 3 months victory if they just convert to Chinese and rule from Beijing.
That's what happened during the Mongol and Manchu controlled dynasties.

The Chinese have no animosity towards the US.
This is demonstrated by Chinese affinity for things American.
Trump and trade war is going ruin all that.
.

 

[nahtanbob]

You are talking about what happened to Japan without the HUGE manpower and resources that a subdued China could provide to the Japan from 1937 onwards so they can concentrate on other fronts.
With China on Japan's side there is also no need to bomb Pearl Harbor.
The possibilities are too much to discuss here, as well as being pointless.
.

I never thought of that possibility. USA was entering the war one way or the other to fight Nazi Germany

 

[zectech]

We may never know.
China Japan war started in 1937 and lasted 8 years instead of 3 months that the Japanese envisaged.
China not so "sick man of Asia" after all.
Better luck if Japan targeted India instead.

Japan with China would give the Japanese huge resources, manpower and vast lands.
Japan could then give support and resources to the Axis Alliance instead of having around a million men bogged down in China, losing men and expending huge resources.
Japan could very well be at the doorstep of the USA instead and all Europe would be speaking German.

So yet again. below statement is TRUE.
https://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/18/opinion/the-worlds-wartime-debt-to-china.html
The World’s Wartime Debt to China
.

This proves not to go after your own, China and Japan were on friendly terms before the Imperialist western nations corrupted Japan and gave Japan ideas of Empire and conquest.

Some say the Ming Dynasty fell because of East Asian infighting between Chinese and Japanese.

 

[Nan Yang]

The Navy's taking a hard look at hypervelocity railgun rounds for the Zumwalt destroyers that still don't have any ammo

• The Navy is considering arming the ammoless Zumwalt destroyers with hypervelocity railgun rounds.
• The service successfully test-fired hypervelocity projectiles, rounds designed for railguns, out of the standard Mk 45 5-inch deck guns aboard the destroyer USS Dewey during last year's Rim of the Pacific exercises.
• The test has apparently created new possibilities for the Zumwalt.
• "That is one thing that has been considered with respect to capability for this ship class," Zumwalt program manager Capt. Kevin Smith revealed recently, according to USNI News.

The embattled Zumwalt-class destroyers still don't have any ammunition, but the US Navy has an idea, or at least the beginnings of an idea.

The Navy has invested hundreds of millions of dollars and more than a decade into railgun research, which has run up against several technological roadblocks. But while the railgun may not turn out to be a worthwhile project, the railgun rounds seem to show promise.

The Navy fired nearly two dozen hypervelocity projectiles (HVPs) — special rounds initially designed for electromagnetic railguns — from the Mk 45 5-inch deck gun aboard the Arleigh Burke-class destroyer USS Dewey at one point during last year's Rim of the Pacific exercises, USNI News first reported. The guns are the same 40-year-old guns that come standard on cruisers and destroyers.

The Arleigh Burke-class guided-missile destroyer USS Jason Dunham (DDG 109) fires its Mk 45 5-inch gun.
U.S. Navy photo by Senior Chief Intelligence Specialist Matt Bodenner/Released
The same concept could presumably be applied to the 155 mm Advanced Gun Systems (AGS) aboard the Zumwalt-class destroyers. "That is one thing that has been considered with respect to capability for this ship class. We're looking at a longer-range bullet that's affordable, and so that's one thing that's being considered," Capt. Kevin Smith, a program manager for the Zumwalt, revealed at the Surface Navy Association Symposium, USNI News reportedTuesday.

"The surface Navy is really excited about this capability," he added, saying that nothing has been decided.

This is apparently only one of several possibilities. "There are a lot of things that we're looking at as far as deeper magazines with other types of weapons that have longer range," Smith said. Previous considerations have included the Raytheon Excalibur 155 mm guided artillery, but that plan was abandoned.

USS Zumwalt (DDG-1000).
The destroyer Zumwalt's big guns don't have any ammo, and the Navy may ditch them entirely because they don't even work right

The Zumwalt's 155 mm AGS guns, intended to strike targets farther than 80 miles away, are ridiculously expensive to fire — a single Long Range Land Attack Projectile costs almost $1 million. Procurement was shut down two years ago, leaving the Zumwalt without any ammunition.

Since then, the Navy has been looking hard at other alternatives.

The Navy "will be developing either the round that goes with that gun or what we are going to do with that space if we decide to remove that gun in the future," Vice Adm. William Merz, the deputy chief of naval operations for warfare systems, told the Senate Armed Services seapower subcommittee in November, Breaking Defense reported at the time.

So, if the Navy can't find suitable ammunition for the stealth destroyers, it may end up scrapping the guns altogether to be replaced with something else down the road.

Despite repeated setbacks, which include everything from loss of stealth to engine and electrical problems, the Navy said "the ship is doing fine." Merz told Congress that the vessel should be operational by 2021.