China, India battle for aerospace lead

[Adux]

China, India battle for aerospace lead
20 Jul, 2007, 0114 hrs IST,Hormuz P Mama,

China's air force has more than 2,000 operational aircraft — mainly indigenous copies of Soviet-era designs, like the A-5 (based on the MiG-19), the F-7 (MiG-21) and Y-8 (An-12). Their derivatives continue to be developed.

Long after the An-12 went out of service, China not only continues to operate the Shanxi Y8F-400 derivative, but is now working on a further development — the Y-9.

That keeps China mired in obsolete technology. Similarly, while the A-5III is very different from the original MiG-19, it has little value in today’s warfare.

More recently, though, China has begun licence-production of Russian Su-27 and Su-30MKK, and has also indigenously designed more advanced types, like the J-10 and JF-17 fighters, the FBC-1 fighter-bomber, and the K-8 and L-15 trainers.

By contrast, the IAF had operated licence-produced and imported types like the MiG-21, MiG-23, MiG-25, MiG-27, MiG-29, Su-30MKI, Mirage 2000 and Jaguar. It is only now going in for indigenous designs like the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft, Dhruv Advanced Light Helicopter and the HJT-36 intermediate jet trainer, with the HJT-39 advanced jet trainer and the Light Combat Helicopter to follow.

How do China’s and India’s aerospace technologies compare? Importantly, unlike India, China has had no access to western technology for decades. Its technology base has thus been built up through vigorous in-house R&D, reverse engineering of foreign products, and the like.

India’s Tejas, Asia’s only fourth-generation combat aircraft, has technologies on par with those of most comparable aircraft, and superior to those of one such design.

China’s most advanced fighter, the Chengdu J-10, said to be based on the technology of Israel’s Lavi, has some structural composites, advanced avionics and a fly-by-wire flight control system, but lacks fourth-generation technology. A large, twin-engined derivative, designated the J-13, is said to be under development.

The technology embargo has hit China’s engine development hardest. All their aircraft, to date, have had Soviet-era clones or imported Russian engines, like the AL-31FN for the J-10 and the RD-93 for the JF-17. The Shenyang WS-10A, China’s first indigenous engine, was only recently announced. Its problems will take years to overcome before it powers the J-10. India’s problem-plagued Kaveri engine for Tejas, will also take years to enter service. but appears to be a more advanced design than the WS-10A.

Similarly, while China licence-produces several helicopters, there is none of Chinese design to match the HAL Dhruv — which had an infusion of German technology. Dhruv is among the most advanced helicopters in its class, and India’s most exportable product.

India has nothing to match the Hongdu L-15 – only the world’s second, modern, supersonic advanced jet trainer. However, the more recent transonic, HAL HJT-39, now under development, should be a technologically-superior, world-class product. Incidentally, should the IAF require a supersonic trainer, a toned-down Tejas could become the world’s first such fourth-generation aircraft.

Regarding missiles, India has the formidable Indo-Russian BrahMos cruise missile, while the Akash, Trishul, Astra and Nag are under development. By contrast, China has had a family of less-capable missiles, indigenous as well as Russian clones, for years.

China leads India in exports — mainly of early-vintage aircraft to countries like Algeria, Egypt, Iran, Myanmar and Pakistan, at “friendship” prices. Pakistan will have large numbers of JF-17s, which it jointly developed with China. In the future though, India will have far more advanced export products to offer.

Interestingly, both countries have joint helicopter projects. China has teamed with Eurocopter for the 6 to 7 tonne EC-175 (Z-15 in China), while India is to develop a 10-tonne battlefield helicopter with Russia.

China is well ahead of India for the development of commercial aircraft. It has several turboprop derivatives, of which the recent Xian MA-60 has been exported to countries like Fiji, Indonesia, Nepal and Zimbabwe.

China jointly assembles the Embraer ERJ-145 regional jet, is setting up a locals assembly line for the A320-family aircraft at Tianjin, is indigenously developing the ARJ21 regional jet, and plans to produce its own single-aisle mainline aircraft. India’s only product may be an airliner development of the Indo-Russian medium transport aircraft.

China’s airliners will mainly meet domestic demand, while the Indian market is too small to justify such a venture.
What of the future ? China’s relentless, single-minded pursuit of aerospace development, with several times India’s investment in that field, its numerous R&D and manufacturing facilities, and its large, well-trained work force, is showing results. China’s latest aircraft, while still not world-class, are way ahead of its earlier products.

India will have to invest much more, to further refine its capabilities, particularly in fields like prime contractorship and systems integration, and to develop technologies not yet in hand. India’s current technological lead over China can no longer be taken for granted.


http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/msid-2218747,prtpage-1.cms

 

[Keysersoze]

Other replies withstanding there was a bias in the article that was almost humourous. It forgets that there has been a lot of foreign input on successful Indian programs and then says that China's programs are reliant on outsiders. it mentions the Ws-10 but forgets the ws-13 Mentions the Druv but forgets the WZ-10.

Simply put this is another typical south Asian newspaper report....full of bluster and light on facts

 

[Adux]

what is LCH?
China has made great strides, but she hasnt reached anywhere near the tech marvels of USA.

 

[Ababeel]

China is far ahead in Aerospace technology, I mean the Fighter aircrafts specially. And as their R & D in hitech reaserch is very fast as per some US Strategic Reports they are marching fast to catch the US in many depts of this technology. However India with the help of US particularly and West generally can also make important strides in these fields.

 

[joey]

Other replies withstanding there was a bias in the article that was almost humourous. It forgets that there has been a lot of foreign input on successful Indian programs and then says that China's programs are reliant on outsiders. it mentions the Ws-10 but forgets the ws-13 Mentions the Druv but forgets the WZ-10.

Simply put this is another typical south Asian newspaper report....full of bluster and light on facts

The article is obviously has bias and huge technical mismatches in some parts I can already see em. however If your going to conclude that Indias programmes are reliant on outsiders while Chinese programmes are, its incorrect as well.

From What I feel and know and understand Indias Aeronautics industry and Chinas Aeronautics industry is neck to neck when capabilities are concerned bar a few instanced where admitedly China has pulled up things better using their industrial manufacturing base and de-centralisation policy however rare in a communist/socialist state, But The Chinese are pursuing things vigorously compared to the lousy babudom approach by GOI which would seek me to place Chinese industry above India [Engine comes to my mind, not because we cannot design one but we have done it it is because we dont even have invested in many experimenting facilities regarding the same yet) , Its not a matter of technical knowhow or capability but the will of the state to pursue things, as Aeronautics industry is entirely dependent on the will of the state and pumping of money in the same and constant support of the government. NAL has been lobbying for over years for approval of a 70 seater RTA civilian jet yet has not been sanctioned yet they sanctions Campuses of Cambridge in India, What a pity and another form of huge suffering in form of not thinking strategically w.r.t IPR is we suffering form this babudom.

I'll quote someone regarding the same from a presentation,

First Slide,

CAN IT BE BOOM-TIME FOR INDIAN AEROSPACE?

RODDAM NARASIMHA
National Institute of Advanced Studies

5 September 2003


Prasthutha
Indian Institute of Science, Bangalore

And the last slide,

CONCLUSION

So: Is India all set for an Aerospace boom?

Answer: Everything needed is there, except possibly

– an appreciation of how vast the opportunities
are, and

– the will of the State to pursue them aggressively

 

[Mercenary]

Whatever this analysis shows is irrelevant. The Question remains which other countries prefer their equipment to come from, India or China?

Even Countries within the Indian sphere of influence prefer Chinese Equipment such as Sri Lanka, Nepal and Bangladesh.

Besides that, India has no other potential customers to sell weaponry too.

China besides Pakistan has North Korea, various African Countries and the leftist regimes in South America.

India is still very behind China in terms of Indigenous Weaponry produced. Another fact is that China is very aggressive in terms of being the super-power in the East-Pacific rim and ending the hegemony of the USA in Japan, South Korea, and Taiwan.

This makes China much more competitive in getting its armed forces up to speed than India whose sole competitor is Pakistan and to a lesser extent China.

So comparing India to China is wishful thinking.

 

[joey]

^^ Illogical Argument w.r.t Topic substantiation, and totally void of the topics main point.

Arms sales is dictated by politics.
India dont need to sell RTA to anyone or such ventures, its home industry is big enough to absorb.
India is very behind or behind or in which terms behind indigenous production off China is a matter of debate, again aeronautics is what we are talking of not defence sector.
Competitiveness of armed forces is determined by states will which china has irrespective of its sales.

again what you said is just a summation of here and there things, not what the topic is one, So i'm sorry If I cannot comprehend properly what to reply.

 

[Mercenary]

^^ Illogical Argument w.r.t Topic substantiation, and totally void of the topics main point.

Arms sales is dictated by politics.
India dont need to sell RTA to anyone or such ventures, its home industry is big enough to absorb.
India is very behind or behind or in which terms behind indigenous production off China is a matter of debate, again aeronautics is what we are talking of not defence sector.
Competitiveness of armed forces is determined by states will which china has irrespective of its sales.

again what you said is just a summation of here and there things, not what the topic is one, So i'm sorry If I cannot comprehend properly what to reply.

How exactly is that a matter of debate that India is behind China in terms of indigenous weapons production?

China makes its own tanks, makes its own jet fighters, its own frigates, strategic missiles....

what does india make?

Arjun tank was a total failure, bramos is india-russia joint production, LCA has been a failure as well

where as China is making the J-10 fighter which challenges the F-16, its own naval warships, and tanks and selling them all over the world...

the reason that people don't buy Indian weaponry is not because India doesn't feel like selling it, its because India has nothing to sell...

Bangladesh, Sri Lanka and Nepal, all are under India's sphere of influence and yet they are buying weapons from Pakistan and China....

says a lot for Indian weaponry

 

[Adux]

Mercenary,

The above post is really out of touch with reality?
Arjun a failure? why? Ask a person like zraver what he thinks of Arjun, especially its suspension
LCA of all is a failure? How?
There are more LCA prototypes than JF-17's.

J-10 has a long way to go before it even compares with blk-52 let alone the blk-60.
Sri Lanka doesnt buy Indian weapons? Ever thought why? Unlike pakistan we have to adhere by consitutition, By law we are not allowed to supply to sri lanka.

What aircrafts did Pakistan buy from China, F-7's. Copied MiG-21's.
JF-17's, an aircarft which is atleast 2 generations old in design and avionics.
JF-17's pales in comparison to the LCA.
J-10, an Israeli Lavi project retrofitted with a Russian engine.

We dont sell M-11's etc, if thats what you mean. We do make Agni series and Prithvi series, dont sell them to other countries.
Law and Order somehow takes more importance to us than petty strategic gains intended for short-term future.

 

[Titanium]

It is amusing to note still some Indians claiming aerospace parity with China!!! For what? the pathetic attempt at LCA... which is comparable to Typhoon, rafale and 80% of F-22 ...go on and based on these fancy...compare now to Europeans. Yeah eorupeans don't have 5 gen aircraft under development and India has MCA...which makes India lead over eouropeans .......right?

 

[Adux]

Another troll in the offing.

 

[Titanium]

YEAH DEAR .....LCA.... you contributed to our immense knowledge the power of India's aerospace........maaned by 50,000 engineer and sciebntist for the last 30 years studying the design handed down by france.

I don't doubt they are good students by the sheer no. of papers put up ..... studying the Mirage III design handed down by french to Israel, Saouth afarica and India at the same time. It is another matter that Israel and Sauth africa were more interested in putting the desing in work in Kfir and Cheetha... and retired their aircraft when India is deciding to build.

 

[Adux]

lol@that, its classic

 

[Mercenary]

Mercenary,

The above post is really out of touch with reality?
Arjun a failure? why? Ask a person like zraver what he thinks of Arjun, especially its suspension

Arjun is a failure because it took 30 years to make the Tank and only begrudgingly is India inducting it into its Tank Force and yet it has placed an order for more T-90 Tanks from Russia. Arjun was suppose to replace India's foreign purchases of Tanks, the fact that India is placing massive orders for T-90 shows the lack of confidence that Indian generals have in the Arjun.

LCA of all is a failure? How?
There are more LCA prototypes than JF-17's.

Having more prototypes is not a benchmark in which a plane can be judged as a success or a failure. Its the induction into the armed forces which is the benchmark. The fact that it hasn't is a sign of its failure. Is it any wonder that Indian Airmen call LCA, Last chance aircraft.

J-10 has a long way to go before it even compares with blk-52 let alone the blk-60.

Apparently that long way is getting shorter as China is getting more sophisticated avionic equipment. Is it any wonder that a large part of F-35 JSF is being deployed with the US Pacific Forces.

Sri Lanka doesnt buy Indian weapons? Ever thought why? Unlike pakistan we have to adhere by consitutition, By law we are not allowed to supply to sri lanka.

Oh please. India refuses to sell weapons to Sri Lanka because the Tamils in India will get angry and thus Sri Lanka has to rely on Pakistan and China for weaponry. Infact the Pakistani Rocket Launcher Systems that we sold to Sri Lanka devastated the LTTE in 1996 which led to the capture of Jaffna.

What aircrafts did Pakistan buy from China, F-7's. Copied MiG-21's.

Ya but we are getting Frigates, Tanks, Missiles, Mortars, and J-10 fighters in the future.

JF-17's, an aircarft which is atleast 2 generations old in design and avionics.
JF-17's pales in comparison to the LCA.

Really?

Please prove it.

J-10, an Israeli Lavi project retrofitted with a Russian engine.

Well China has made such a good aircraft it has caused worry to Taiwan and to the US Pacific Forces that a 5th generation fighters are being deployed there.

We dont sell M-11's etc, if thats what you mean. We do make Agni series and Prithvi series, dont sell them to other countries.

What are those? Russian missiles with Indian paint?

Law and Order somehow takes more importance to us than petty strategic gains intended for short-term future.

Oh like the time that India's disastrous deployment of combat troops in Sri Lanka to show the world that India has arrived at a global stage.

 

[Titanium]

Mercenary,
Adux does not know what he is talking.... going through his posts ....he seems to be call center employee..... employed to bs about defence sector advancement. Just look at the kind of posts he has started.