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China downplays Japan's construction of India's first bullet train project

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A necessary cost, i suppose. Japan will make INDIA its base for industry in South Asia as we begin to redirect our heavy manufacturing there. To increase and guarantee Japanese production efficiency, we will help and augment the Governmetn of India's mandate to improve infrastructure. To make money you need to spend. India is worth it.



I am not kissing any gluteus maximus (and gluteus minimi) , but speaking pragmatically and in truth. India is a massive market; Japan is reaping profits there. LOL!

Can't handle the truth? Step out of the kitchen. :)
@Nihonjin:cheers:
We need Japanese expertise in manufacturing
TO Chinese members :nana: keep Butthurt comming :D:D:D

China already exported trains and built railway in India, this is not the first time also not the last time ... it's obviously China CRH train also will appear in India. Is there something so funny ?
Exactly, this is not the end rather it's just a start Chinese companies will get their share in infrastructure development
No need for other Chinese members to Butthurt
 
@xunzi

The Japanese have been in India for more time, than any other investor. They entered this market when others would not touch it with a pole. Hence, the comfort for Indians with Japanese, because we know them to be long term players. Having consulted with a Japanese company, Dentsu let me tell you their approach is very good. Though, they do get frustrated a lot with Indians, they have not quit.

Coming to the current projects, there is no point in being sore. We, Indians, will choose what we believe is good for us. Not, what either you or the Americans feel is good for us. And therein lies something, the Chinese will need to accept when they work with India. It makes no sense, whatsoever, to compare the Indian market with Indonesia or Philipines or any EU country for that matter. The Indian infrastructure market is just opening up. The scale and depth of requirements is bigger than any single market. For this, there is a cost. Rates will have to be the lowest and you will need patience. The second, the Japs have a lot of.

The first, seems they are beating you at it. For now. So, instead of making this about nationality, you should follow your own advice. Its business. Either compete or let the better person take the business.
I'm going to make this ONE last attempt at educating you Indian. WE DID NOT MAKE ANY OFFER of this project that the Japanese win. We made offer on other Indian railway projects but NOT this one. So I could care less if the Japanese won. It is imply because we didn't make any offer and have no interest in making a low offer.

Secondly, if we see no profit, there would be NO DEAL. Don't expect us to hang out free money to fund your infrastructure. As mentioned by other Chinese, helping you build infrastructure is equivalent of putting a bullet in our head. We might as well talk in term of business, a win-win business deal rather than a deal which risk our money. Our money is better and well spent elsewhere where we are more willing to take the risks for political reasons and with friendly country. For example, Africa and Thailand to mention a few.

As I said, trading and economy is largely stand outside of Political Difference. Think of it this way, while most people in US think China is a threat and most people in China think US is a threat, if trade and financial activities were depended largely on political difference, then by no mean US and China can rack up a large trade bilaterally. And you won't see many Chinese product selling in the US.

The Project (I will to admit upfront I did not follow the story closely) if I were not mistaken, was chosen because Japan have a cheaper solution to the HSR in Mumbai-Ahmedabad Sector, IIRC the Japanese offer is 14.6 billions for the sector while the Chinese offer is upward to 20 billions.

Financial incentive (such as repayment) is one of the issue regarding contract. Indeed for the Chinese proposal, the Chinese propose a 50% loan on the project with low interest repayment scheme for the next 10 years. Where the Japanese were offered 8.1 Billions in loan and probably market rate repayment.

Problem is, depend on how you see it, incentive not always works especially if the country you are loan to could afford such a loan. And if you look at it this way, the different between the Chinese and Japanese proposal is nearly 6 billions dollars. And then you need to look at 3 different problems

1.) Would the incentive Chinese offer worth the 5.4 billions cost offset?

2.) Would India be able to repay the Japanese loan on a market rate?

3.) How about quality of the project?

In this case, India have make a decision in favor of the Japanese, and at first glance, the Japanese plan were indeed better (there are no way the incentive can make up the 5.4 billions different between the Japanese Offer and Chinese Offer) and I don't think India would be unable to pay the loan without the Chinese incentive and lastly, even if the offer is the same, I too would have gone for Japanese Stocks, I have seen the Rolling Stock Chinese Build for Sydney rail, and I travel in it EVERYDAY. and let me tell you this, I would prefer the older K-Set build by the British/Australia. You can see the finish is not great with the Chinese Train, Air-Con not working most of the time and the seat not really comfortable in design.

I would have to say, Chinese proposal got beaten by the Japanese Proposal fair and square, if Chinese were to bid on the further project in India, they would probably need to put on a better proposal in order to win contract, these term may works in country without much spare money to spend but not going to work if you want to bid contract in Singapore or Taiwan alike.
Stop misleading the people. WE DID NOT MAKE ANY OFFER on this project that the Japanese won. Get your fact straight! I'm getting tire and irritate of the bullshit of this misinformation.
 
Parts of this thread have been hijacked by jingoism. To put the record straight:

1. The Indian bid was secured by Japan primarily because of the liberal funding terms offered by Japan.
2. That in no way means that China may not secure future bids, as this is just the first of many more to come.
3. Contrary to what some of the Chinese members here have opined, China is indeed desperate to secure HSR contracts. The Indonesian bid was ultimately sealed after a fierce bidding war with Japan, and only because the Chinese finally dropped their sovereign guarantee demand. That shows that the Chinese are feeling the heat.
4. Do not for a moment assume that other countries will not react to these developments. Sri Lanka has already re-opened all Chinese contracts under OBOR as they realize the Chinese gave them a not-so-good deal. More countries will follow suit.
5. Japan probably cannot match China $-for-$ in the funding stakes, but their purpose is more than served by winning a few high profile projects that will put pressure on China to modify its project terms, as in the case of Indonesia, India and now Sri Lanka.
6. To the Chinese members who claim that China is not interested in the project, that is just sour grapes. The timing of the project was decided by India, and not by either Japan or China. It is a buyer's market, something the Chinese would do well to understand. We are not a tinpot African dictatorship glad for Chinese projects as it takes Western pressure off our backs. We gel quite well with the West and Japan.
7. To those who wish to find loopholes in the Japanese funding, there are none. Japan has been funding projects in India for over 50 years. The only problem so far arose in the case of the latest round of funding for Delhi Metro due to Japanese requirements about compulsory purchases from Japanese companies, and the HSR project has already taken that scenario into account.
 
As I said, trading and economy is largely stand outside of Political Difference. Think of it this way, while most people in US think China is a threat and most people in China think US is a threat, if trade and financial activities were depended largely on political difference, then by no mean US and China can rack up a large trade bilaterally. And you won't see many Chinese product selling in the US.

The Project (I will to admit upfront I did not follow the story closely) if I were not mistaken, was chosen because Japan have a cheaper solution to the HSR in Mumbai-Ahmedabad Sector, IIRC the Japanese offer is 14.6 billions for the sector while the Chinese offer is upward to 20 billions.

Financial incentive (such as repayment) is one of the issue regarding contract. Indeed for the Chinese proposal, the Chinese propose a 50% loan on the project with low interest repayment scheme for the next 10 years. Where the Japanese were offered 8.1 Billions in loan and probably market rate repayment.

Problem is, depend on how you see it, incentive not always works especially if the country you are loan to could afford such a loan. And if you look at it this way, the different between the Chinese and Japanese proposal is nearly 6 billions dollars. And then you need to look at 3 different problems

1.) Would the incentive Chinese offer worth the 5.4 billions cost offset?

2.) Would India be able to repay the Japanese loan on a market rate?

3.) How about quality of the project?

In this case, India have make a decision in favor of the Japanese, and at first glance, the Japanese plan were indeed better (there are no way the incentive can make up the 5.4 billions different between the Japanese Offer and Chinese Offer) and I don't think India would be unable to pay the loan without the Chinese incentive and lastly, even if the offer is the same, I too would have gone for Japanese Stocks, I have seen the Rolling Stock Chinese Build for Sydney rail, and I travel in it EVERYDAY. and let me tell you this, I would prefer the older K-Set build by the British/Australia. You can see the finish is not great with the Chinese Train, Air-Con not working most of the time and the seat not really comfortable in design.

I would have to say, Chinese proposal got beaten by the Japanese Proposal fair and square, if Chinese were to bid on the further project in India, they would probably need to put on a better proposal in order to win contract, these term may works in country without much spare money to spend but not going to work if you want to bid contract in Singapore or Taiwan alike.

Agreed. The Chinese may have achieved relative parity technologically but they are still lacking in finesse. That said India is not rich enough to be too particular about the finishing and polish.

India is a unique case because it is ambitious and aspirational enough to go for HSR when the bread and butter trains themselves are woefully unsafe, too few and crumbling due to ageing infrastructure. Arguably money could have been better spent in improving and expanding the existing infrastructure first rather than going for HSR which caters to the segment already served by Low Cost Airlines efficiently.

Now as for financials of the deal - Your information about Chinese bid is incorrect - The details of "Japanese bid"/ G2G negotiations will soon be public. The truth of the matter is that Chinese as many have surmised are not interested in winning HSR contracts in India. Ahmedabad - Mumbai is the only viable HSR corridor in India for all intents and purposes and Japanese bought their A-Game to the field. As for Chennai - Delhi Corridor which Chinese are supposedly interested in -The project is still a decade away from contract stage.
 
There is no doubt that Indians are astute business men.But if India thinks that it can make China rush into its infrastructure developing by simply creating some competition or sentiment of fear, then it needs try harder.

Investment is not trade. Trade is simply an exchange of goods,motivated by self greed of making profit. That is why even enemy states trade with each others if no other alternatives.

Investment is a totally different story because it requires allocating investors' capital and resources to other countries for a long period of time. We all know the economic problem of "scarcity" ,so we will never see China put its rare resources to a unfriendly or potential hostile country, at least not in a large scale.

Besides capital, China has another valuable commodity that, developed countries like Japan are lacking, and other developing countries need. That is the experience and know-how about how to transform a country from what it was few decades ago to what is now. China loves to share these with those friendly nations like Pakistan and African countries, I don't think India is in that category despite those nice talks from the leaders of both sides.

Last but not the least,for developing countries there are five basic inputs required to develop a modern agriculture:steel, cement,fertilizer, energy and agriculture machinery. And needless to say that China's annual output for all these are more than half of the world total. So it is only China can modernize African countries' agriculture sector. It is win-win for both, Africa gets richer, China gets a larger market. This called making the cake as opposed to cutting the cake.

Therefore good luck to the India-Japan marriage, we are not butt hurting at all. We will continue on our way with other friendly counties.
 
There is no doubt that Indians are astute business men.But if India thinks that it can make China rush into its infrastructure developing by simply creating some competition or sentiment of fear, then it needs try harder.

Investment is not trade. Trade is simply an exchange of goods,motivated by self greed of making profit. That is why even enemy states trade with each others if no other alternatives.

Investment is a totally different story because it requires allocating investors' capital and resources to other countries for a long period of time. We all know the economic problem of "scarcity" ,so we will never see China put its rare resources to a unfriendly or potential hostile country, at least not in a large scale.

Besides capital, China has another valuable commodity that, developed countries like Japan are lacking, and other developing countries need. That is the experience and know-how about how to transform a country from what it was few decades ago to what is now. China loves to share these with those friendly nations like Pakistan and African countries, I don't think India is in that category despite those nice talks from the leaders of both sides.

Last but not the least,for developing countries there are five basic inputs required to develop a modern agriculture:steel, cement,fertilizer, energy and agriculture machinery. And needless to say that China's annual output for all these are more than half of the world total. So it is only China can modernize African countries' agriculture sector. It is win-win for both, Africa gets richer, China gets a larger market. This called making the cake as opposed to cutting the cake.

Therefore good luck to the India-Japan marriage, we are not butt hurting at all. We will continue on our way with other friendly counties.

Are you saying china has a know how to transofrm any country to china. lol
in that case nobody will want to become china. :D
 
@ganesh623
I actually like what you are saying.If that is the case it means more resources on earth for China.It's also a win-win.
 
Stop misleading the people. WE DID NOT MAKE ANY OFFER on this project that the Japanese won. Get your fact straight! I'm getting tire and irritate of the bullshit of this misinformation.

Well, China have offer the Price Tag (20 Billions), Condition (including Technology Transfer with Train Car and Train Operation System) and the loan is finalized, and the Chinese does not make any offer??

India set to spend HK$113 billion on Japan’s shinkansen bullet train; first for developing nation | South China Morning Post

China loses race to win India's first bullet train project - Rediff.com Business
 
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Well, China have offer the Price Tag (20 Billions), Condition (including Technology Transfer with Train Car and Train Operation System) and the loan is finalized, and the Chinese does not make any offer??

India set to spend HK$113 billion on Japan’s shinkansen bullet train; first for developing nation | South China Morning Post

China loses race to win India's first bullet train project - Rediff.com Business
Our offer is on the 2,200-km Chennai-Delhi route for $20B. The one the Japanese got is the 500-km Mumbai-Ahmedabad in WHICH WE DID NOT MAKE ANY OFFER! GET YOUR FACT STRAIGHT!!!
 
Our offer is on the 2,200-km Chennai-Delhi route for $20B. The one the Japanese got is the 500-km Mumbai-Ahmedabad in WHICH WE DID NOT MAKE ANY OFFER! GET YOUR FACT STRAIGHT!!!

So you are saying. Japan offer the 550 km Mumbai-Ahmadabad which Japan is offered for 14.6 billions but the Chinese offer of 20 billion is for the 2200km Chennai-Delhi route? So the Japanese build is about 4 times as expensive than the Chinese one? Given if Japan would bid on the Chennai-Delhi as well, it would have been on the 60-70 billions range vs the Chinese bid of 20billions?

lol Chinese Technology is cheap, it's not "That" cheap.........

If I have to believe any one side of the story, I would choose SCMP over you.
 
So you are saying. Japan offer the 550 km Mumbai-Ahmadabad which Japan is offered for 14.6 billions but the Chinese offer of 20 billion is for the 2200km Chennai-Delhi route? So the Japanese build is about 4 times as expensive than the Chinese one? Given if Japan would bid on the Chennai-Delhi as well, it would have been on the 60-70 billions range vs the Chinese bid of 20billions?

lol Chinese Technology is cheap, it's not "That" cheap.........

If I have to believe any one side of the story, I would choose SCMP over you.
Our offer of $20B is 50% of the total cost that we are willing to invest. the other 50% will go to the Indian govt. In other words, the total cost could be $40B.

I'm not going to waste my time with a moron. I will let the Indian talk to you. They know full well in their country HSR deal. That is the hope!
 
Our offer of $20B is 50% of the total cost that we are willing to invest. the other 50% will go to the Indian govt. In other words, the total cost could be $40B.

I'm not going to waste my time with a moron. I will let the Indian talk to you. They know full well in their country HSR deal. That is the hope!

First of all, don't engage in a post if you know you are going to end up in an insult. There are always alternative if you don't want to reply, you simply don't reply for it.

And then, whatever you say. I don't really care how you interpret the deal or what deal you are interpreting, as I said so already, I would much rather trust SCMP than you or any Indian member in this sense.
 
Those areas are being assessed in conjunction with this HSR project.
LOL.... You speak like you live in India and have taken up taken up human development projects.
Your post suggest nothing without reference to evidence.
 
India is only a 2.2 trillion economy

What was your GDP when you started your 'speed-up' campaign ?

China economy is almost 3 times of Japan. Little Japan.

You're 10 times larger in terms of population,kid.

LOL.... You speak like you live in India and have taken up taken up human development projects.
Your post suggest nothing without reference to evidence.

This,is what he meant.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delhi_Mumbai_Industrial_Corridor_Project
 
As I said, trading and economy is largely stand outside of Political Difference. Think of it this way, while most people in US think China is a threat and most people in China think US is a threat, if trade and financial activities were depended largely on political difference, then by no mean US and China can rack up a large trade bilaterally. And you won't see many Chinese product selling in the US.
business is business an politics comes second but your precieveing china's business and political relationship with the US the same as india and japan economic and political relationship. thats a bad way of thinking. i may as well say turkey and russia needs to set aside its problems and continue doing business, as the value of trade is billions. but they wont due to political reasons.


The Project (I will to admit upfront I did not follow the story closely) if I were not mistaken, was chosen because Japan have a cheaper solution to the HSR in Mumbai-Ahmedabad Sector, IIRC the Japanese offer is 14.6 billions for the sector while the Chinese offer is upward to 20 billions.
i go on google news and the japan and china tender hsr contract for indoneasia came up quiet frequenty, i read a very informative article from i think it was the financail time which took me up to speed then i read some chinese and japanese articles to get a broad view two sided view of the tender. i can find it where china's offer is 20+ billion, can you provide the source?


Financial incentive (such as repayment) is one of the issue regarding contract. Indeed for the Chinese proposal, the Chinese propose a 50% loan on the project with low interest repayment scheme for the next 10 years. Where the Japanese were offered 8.1 Billions in loan and probably market rate repayment.
i see you have been reading from the economic times as your saying exactly what they are saying.
Japan offers to fund 81% of India's first bullet train worth $15 billion - The Economic Times

again can you provide a reliable source to where china's loan agreement was to finance 50% of the project?

Problem is, depend on how you see it, incentive not always works especially if the country you are loan to could afford such a loan. And if you look at it this way, the different between the Chinese and Japanese proposal is nearly 6 billions dollars. And then you need to look at 3 different problems

1.) Would the incentive Chinese offer worth the 5.4 billions cost offset?

2.) Would India be able to repay the Japanese loan on a market rate?

3.) How about quality of the project?

1) well again it depends on the source for the $5.4 billion price differance.

2) wouldnt the interest rate be frozen? and woulnt the repayment date be flexible

3) will be explained in the next paragraph


In this case, India have make a decision in favor of the Japanese, and at first glance, the Japanese plan were indeed better (there are no way the incentive can make up the 5.4 billions different between the Japanese Offer and Chinese Offer) and I don't think India would be unable to pay the loan without the Chinese incentive and lastly, even if the offer is the same, I too would have gone for Japanese Stocks, I have seen the Rolling Stock Chinese Build for Sydney rail, and I travel in it EVERYDAY. and let me tell you this, I would prefer the older K-Set build by the British/Australia. You can see the finish is not great with the Chinese Train, Air-Con not working most of the time and the seat not really comfortable in design.
i shall ignore the 5.4 billion in differance. unitl i find a source thats reliable that reflects what you say.
are you trying to say japan could have given a better loan incentive than china? the chinese are almost begging people to take their money. only down side you have to give it back but the rates are uncompared. BUT, they may be substance in this. now lets say i beleve you and say china would loan 50% of the project whilst japan would give in 81%(japan giving 81% is correct). now this could be a big factor. because in the end its almost an investment. the japanese may be more willing to make more of a risk whilst the chinese are a bit wary as the economy is flat lining at the moment despite what the indian media says. now this means either japan is more willing to invest in india and take the risk or are being very agressive and stupid.(my guess is the first.)
to quality i know goods that are made in china come with the low quality perception too. and in some cases thats true. in regards to the trains in sydney, well i have not been to austraila so i have not seen them. but when you mentioned the aircondioning noe working. dont you think that trains working long hours are supposed to come with problems. besides when a product worth milions/billions, they will be inspected inside out by the client and the problems would be rectified. dont you think the ac unit would be just fine upo inspection prior to delevery?. also ac units are not even that high tech and can be procured from any country. and a problem in them not working would most probably reflect on the maintainance of the train not the manufacturer. also about 4 years ago i was looking for a water pump for my fish tank it needed to be 12000lhr and cheap. now i was either given the option to go for a well known fluval pump or a chinese jebao pump. i choose the later and after 4 years it has not failed, not once. most of my gadets are chinese they have not broken.

also the jf-17 thats chinese, the pakistanis are not complaining, yes they have admited its not as good as western kit but it works and is improving to western standards.

in regards to the stock exchange the chinese stock market has been fluctuating hugely andi woud not out money in it now. im not to familiar with the tokyo stock exchange. but i do look at austrailia for mining companies. the shares are down and its prime time to buy and glencore went up 3.9% about a few das ago but thats at lse.



I would have to say, Chinese proposal got beaten by the Japanese Proposal fair and square, if Chinese were to bid on the further project in India, they would probably need to put on a better proposal in order to win contract, these term may works in country without much spare money to spend but not going to work if you want to bid contract in Singapore or Taiwan alike.
its not that im complaning that the tender was unfair. the point im making is that as long as if japan made a good deal, they would get the job. i think you would agree that india is tring to offset china. you do have a point in that countrys that dont have a lot of money would choose the cheapest option.


p.s.
below is not a reliable source
Japan pips China in race to build India's first bullet train : World, News - India Today

regards bm
 
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