China developing Naval version JF-17 for aricraft carrier?

[Neo]

Yar its not that PN doesn't have money, A Aircraft carrier is no use to us.

Sir,

Imho even if we had the money there are certain factors to be considered before we talk about an AC Carrier. First of all our 1000km coastline is too short to justify the purchase of an aircraft carrier, we can do the job with Orions in both ASW and Awacs role and a dedicated naval air arm with atleast 3-4 squadrons of block II JF-17's (48-72 jets).

A single aircraft carrier isn't viable, we'll need atleast two ($2 billion) to form two battle fleets. Each battle group would need 4-6 advanced subs ($1-1,5 billion), 4-6 frigates ($0.5-0.8 billion), 2-3 minesweepers ($0.1-0.3 billion), atleast 1 transport vessel ($0.1 billion), 1 ship borne Awacs ($0.2 billion), 2-4 ASW and 2 SAR choppers ($0.1 billion) plus force multipliers bringing the cost of each battle group to atleast $5 billion.

Maintenance of each batlle group will take another $0.7-1.2 billion per annum.

With (budgeted) defence expenditure of $4.5-5 billion its impossible to maintain two battle groups, they'll suck up all our sources leaving very little for airforce or army.

Unless we have a $500 billion economy with defence budget of $25-30 billion per annum its merely a day dream to have aircraft carriers in PN.

 

[Neo]

Another thing is our doctrine; we're a defensive naval force with no global ambitions. Aircraft carriers just don't fit in.

 

[Muradk]

Another thing is our doctrine; we're a defensive naval force with no global ambitions. Aircraft carriers just don't fit in.

Well lets suppose we do get one we have a total 12 miles to internation waters.
Another thing I wanted to tell all of you, in 71 Navy had zero capabilities, there guns were pointed at the city to fire at IAF, PN killed more pakistani then the Indians most of the shells fell in Larari area and 22 fell at Masroor base.
Sorry If I piss someone here but the Navy had the same problem as the Army did they thought they dont need Air cover.
4 am we get a call that there is Indian ship standing at Kachori Island there is a small cut in the Island the ship was standing there. we scrambled 2 Sabers at 4 am so the Navy High Command said shoot it down, both pilots said it is standing and we will not shoot untill we confirm that its Indian Navy, They came back and landed, Navy command complaint that your 2 pilots didn't listen to us, So PAF scrambled the same to pilots again at 6 am now they could see the Ship and sailors standing waving to the F-86s, The leader said bullshit we will not shoot and they were ordered that I repeat the word ( Shoot the fuckers right now or we will have PAF take your wings. The leader went close he didn't see a pakistani Flag or the Navy Symbol, Orders were orders Sabers tore the ship apart while they were shooting they raised the pakistani flag at that time the leader started giving abuses to Navy till he landed, before they even came out of the cockpit the Navy said your 2 sabers shot our ship and killed 14 sailors, PAF said that our pilot were right the first time and you ordered them to fire. Then the Navy took resposibility of that accident.
Now the 50 mirages we got from Aussis they are in Masoor and now both Pakistan and Navy do joint excercises. But again we the PAF is ever ready for them and they still do things there own way.

 

[niaz]

Hon Murad Sahib,

I do remember the incident. I think it was PNS Zulfiqar. Without any disrespect to the PAF command, let me state the following.

Esso Fertilizer plant at Dharki near Rahim Yar Khan.

They were advised that some PAF fighters were flying over to attack India in the Rajasthan sector and no action is to be taken if they are seen. This was understood by the Civil Defence assigned to Dharki plant as no need to sound the Alert siren. True to form two aircraft appeared in the afternoon and no alert was sounded (Hunters look a bit like Sabres when afar). Only when these started strafing the plant resulting in damage to the plant and casualties including deaths, did people realize that these were Indian. This incident is not heresy but related to me personally by a colleague who was one of the senior most managers at Dharki in 1971.

It is also a well-known fact that the Armour attack on the Jaiselmer sector ended up as a disaster due to lack of PAF air cover.

I was myself posted as Engineer in charge of Esso Kerosene terminal at Kemari, on rotating shift basis at the start of hostilities in 1971.Twice I experienced IAF Hunters attacking Keamari Installations (once in the evening and once early morning) with PAF no where to be seen. Additionally, IAF used to attack 3 or 4 times each night with impunity. Once I could even see dark outline of the IAF Canberra in the sky. It was during this time when I asked the Naval Commander, who used to drive in after each 'All Clear' to check the damage; " Haven’t you guys got any recce or night interception ". His reply was that Fokkers had been drafted for recce work and there were a couple of F-104's stationed at Maripur (now called Masroor) for night interception. Star fighter has a peculiar sound but we didn’t hear it during the 6 nights and 7 days that I was there.

This is however true that most of the shells of the AA guns used to fall on the plant and surrounding areas causing minor damage.

I understand the limited resources of the PAF; however some of the blame of the above must surely lie on the PAF high command.

 

[Neo]

Yes, I remember it aswell, a sad day in our history.
Most modern navies have their own air arm, whats the reason PN doesn't have one?

 

[Myth_buster_1]

our air force will be having enough capability to defend PN

how much support will the airforce be able to provide with JF-17 and a thousand KM parked 18 odd new F-16s aganist possible Karachi coast blockade from IN surface fleet or IN/IAF air supremacy consisting of super hornets, mig-29K, and MKIs?
i think IN will be pretty much be well prepared to pick up every single fighter taking off and landing from ABs in karachi.. however if Aircraft carrier used as a defensive coastal role it would be harder for IN to suppress both AB and AC at the same time..
no one is planing to take AC all the way behind enemy lines.... as a defensive role it should be prepared to provide air support to surface fleet...
we are only talking about light AC not Super carriers...

 

[Muradk]

Yes, I remember it aswell, a sad day in our history.
Most modern navies have their own air arm, whats the reason PN doesn't have one?

Now they do every move PN makes PAF are on top of them, after 71 PN and Army realized that without air cover things can go bad.

 

[IceCold]

Now they do every move PN makes PAF are on top of them, after 71 PN and Army realized that without air cover things can go bad.

Even then sir the major chunk of the military budget is being taken out by the army and not the airforce and not the navy. Once in my history class i was reading as stated in the book regarding WW2:
"that a country that looses air control cannot win a war"

How true it is for Pakistan as we have witnessed it.

 

[IceCold]

Yes, I remember it aswell, a sad day in our history.
Most modern navies have their own air arm, whats the reason PN doesn't have one?

Exactly. PN as any other modern day navy should have its own naval aviation arm of fighter jets. Its weapons integrations, tactics and every other related matter should be PN responsibility and not PAFs. This way we can ensure two things, one that during any conflict PAF will be heavily occupied defending the skies and with counter attacks, not having the responsibility to defend the vital assests of PN will cut them some slack and two, the chances of any misceps as happened in 71 due to lack of communication will diminish.

 

[Munir]

Exactly. PN as any other modern day navy should have its own naval aviation arm of fighter jets. Its weapons integrations, tactics and every other related matter should be PN responsibility and not PAFs. This way we can ensure two things, one that during any conflict PAF will be heavily occupied defending the skies and with counter attacks, not having the responsibility to defend the vital assests of PN will cut them some slack and two, the chances of any misceps as happened in 71 due to lack of communication will diminish.

Size does matter. Pakistan is not USA. It does not have cash, manpower, equipment, shore to handle air arm. Even if the pilots would use PAF training and equipment it is still unrealistic to dream about Icy's ideas.

Let me put it simple. Does Pakistan have the budget to do it? I don't think so. Will it add value? Nopes. Better coordination will do a lot more.

Does it show that they will not add navy air arm? Sure. JF17 will get naval strike capability. Rose have the same. All equipment is either manned by PAF trained pilots or PAF pilots.

The idea would suit Jang newspaper but in reality not realistic. If history showed lack of communication then it doesn't mean it is justified or wise to build a second airforce.

 

[melb4aust]

Size does matter. Pakistan is not USA. It does not have cash, manpower, equipment, shore to handle air arm. Even if the pilots would use PAF training and equipment it is still unrealistic to dream about Icy's ideas.

Let me put it simple. Does Pakistan have the budget to do it? I don't think so. Will it add value? Nopes. Better coordination will do a lot more.

Does it show that they will not add navy air arm? Sure. JF17 will get naval strike capability. Rose have the same. All equipment is either manned by PAF trained pilots or PAF pilots.

The idea would suit Jang newspaper but in reality not realistic. If history showed lack of communication then it doesn't mean it is justified or wise to build a second airforce.

Its not about building a second airforce, it is just to have an effecient way to counter enemy along with every possible mode to defened our assets, our country.

Indeed we lack funds hence cannot afford such arms but i dont see any reason we cant think about having them by making our way strategically, politically and economically.

now i will ask u to stop countring on some1's dream like u mentioned icy's.

 

[Jliu]

Even then sir the major chunk of the military budget is being taken out by the army and not the airforce and not the navy.

Once in my history class i was reading as stated in the book regarding WW2:
"that a country that looses air control cannot win a war"

The book then should have added "and an air force without an army cannot defend the country".

It's all about the opportunity costs and the threat matrix (ie. ORBAT and dispostion etc) of OPFOR facing you. It goes without saying for a regional power with a funding constraints that when facing the bulk of Indian forces on the IA Western Front the PA should recieve the lion's share of funding with the PAF in a supporting role and the Navy providing whatever assistance it can before it ceases to operate in the ops theatre.

 

[Muradk]

Hon Murad Sahib,

I do remember the incident. I think it was PNS Zulfiqar. Without any disrespect to the PAF command, let me state the following.

Esso Fertilizer plant at Dharki near Rahim Yar Khan.

They were advised that some PAF fighters were flying over to attack India in the Rajasthan sector and no action is to be taken if they are seen. This was understood by the Civil Defence assigned to Dharki plant as no need to sound the Alert siren. True to form two aircraft appeared in the afternoon and no alert was sounded (Hunters look a bit like Sabres when afar). Only when these started strafing the plant resulting in damage to the plant and casualties including deaths, did people realize that these were Indian. This incident is not heresy but related to me personally by a colleague who was one of the senior most managers at Dharki in 1971.

It is also a well-known fact that the Armour attack on the Jaiselmer sector ended up as a disaster due to lack of PAF air cover.

I was myself posted as Engineer in charge of Esso Kerosene terminal at Kemari, on rotating shift basis at the start of hostilities in 1971.Twice I experienced IAF Hunters attacking Keamari Installations (once in the evening and once early morning) with PAF no where to be seen. Additionally, IAF used to attack 3 or 4 times each night with impunity. Once I could even see dark outline of the IAF Canberra in the sky. It was during this time when I asked the Naval Commander, who used to drive in after each 'All Clear' to check the damage; " Haven’t you guys got any recce or night interception ". His reply was that Fokkers had been drafted for recce work and there were a couple of F-104's stationed at Maripur (now called Masroor) for night interception. Star fighter has a peculiar sound but we didn’t hear it during the 6 nights and 7 days that I was there.

This is however true that most of the shells of the AA guns used to fall on the plant and surrounding areas causing minor damage.

I understand the limited resources of the PAF; however some of the blame of the above must surely lie on the PAF high command.

Naiz my friend , I am not tying to defend PAF but on the other hand if you notice that Army and Navy took operations in there own hands without telling PAF.
A very good example is longawala, We informed Army that PAF is spread out fighting in all corners and they can't defend them in Rajistan sector , so don't do anything where we cannot give you cover, But Army took matters in there own hands and PAF found out the very next day when all was over and then the blame was on PAF, Army made PAF there escape Goat.

 

[IceCold]

The book then should have added "and an air force without an army cannot defend the country".

It's all about the opportunity costs and the threat matrix (ie. ORBAT and dispostion etc) of OPFOR facing you. It goes without saying for a regional power with a funding constraints that when facing the bulk of Indian forces on the IA Western Front the PA should recieve the lion's share of funding with the PAF in a supporting role and the Navy providing whatever assistance it can before it ceases to operate in the ops theatre.

While it would be true some time back i would disagree on the fact that threat matrix have been significantly changed during the past decade. If you closely monitor at the situation arrising all around us, i do not see why there is a need for 700000 strong men army. We need something rather small, but more agile, quick to manuever, hard hitting mobile force with a strong air and a naval arm. I say strong air arm because if we loose air control, then no matter how strong the ground forces are, without proper air cover, they will be a target pratice. A strong navy because in case of a conflict you cannot allow your sea lanes to be choked as a result of which your economy dies and you cannot sustain a war with dead economy.

 

[SurvivoR]

After reading all your posts, I do believe that the best option for the Navy to go with is the Stealth Submarines armed with both conventional and unconventional SLBMs and cruise missiles. Thats the most feasible way out for Pak Navy... the more stealth subs the better. We should have enough subs to spawn the indian coastline. Also we must have some naval UAVs.

However a Naval air arm is a Must. No question about it.