China demands its share of Arunachal Pradesh
- Thread starter Shardul.....the lion
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Martian2
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Talk is cheap as they say
Continuation of analysis
1. India's air force is 1/3 the size of China's
2. India's air force is qualitatively inferior to the Chinese air force. Simply too many Mig-21s in the Indian air force (see http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/mig-21s-...-by-2017-124828).
3. India's military budget is 1/3 the size of China's (e.g. $30 billion vs. $90 billion; see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_count...ry_expenditures).
4. Indian troops are less well-trained and equipped than their richer Chinese counterparts.
5. India has a defense industry with far lower technological capability (e.g. buying light carbines, howitzers, and asking Russians to fix Smerch MLRS). While India is hoping to build a howitzer prototype by 2013 based on a foreign design and blueprint, China is perfecting its J-20 Mighty Dragon stealth fighter. There is a gigantic chasm between the Chinese military-industrial-complex and the Indian version.
Once you look at the complete picture, the only conclusion that can be drawn is that 100,000 more Indian troops will barely slow down the Chinese military machine. 100,000 Indian troops would have made a big difference during World War I (circa 1914), but not against a modern mechanized opponent. India needs a technological response; not a manpower response. I want to hear what the Indian military plans to do about the following issues:
1. Prevent China from shooting down the one or two Indian military/spy satellites, which will render India blind.
2. Attacking Chinese Beidou GPS and dedicated military satellites. If you can't disable Chinese satellites, they will have a complete situational awareness of the Sino-Indian battlefield.
3. How does India plan to rectify the huge imbalance in the quality and quantity of air power? How in the world is India going to stop the Chinese from gaining air superiority and raining down death from above on Indian troops?
4. How does India plan to mitigate the complete destruction of its military installations and infrastructure from hundreds (or thousands) of Chinese cruise and/or ballistic missiles?
5. How does India plan to handle Chinese attack helicopters and armor columns?
6. How does India plan to slow down the Chinese combined-arms military machine? How does India plan to handle China's blitzkrieg?
As far as I know, India has no answers to any of these questions. In 1962, India was defeated in 31 days by a small fraction of the PLA's forces. How does India plan to last for more than a month against today's far more powerful PLA?
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http://ibnlive.in.com/generalnewsfeed/news...hes/884535.html
"Indian Army's Russian Smerch rocket launchers facing hitches
PTI | 06:11 PM,Nov 02,2011
New Delhi, Nov 2 (PTI) Army has detected problems in its Russian-origin Smerch multi-barrel rocket launchers (MBRL) and complained to Moscow about it. There are problems in the barrels of some of these rocket launchers and we have told the Russians about the issues related to firing of the system, senior Army sources told PTI here. The Smerch rocket launchers are the latest inductions of the Indian Army after a deal was signed for their procurement in December 2005 for more than Rs 2,600 crore. The sources said the Russians will be visiting India to look into the issue and try to rectify the problems in the system. The issue is understood to have come up for discussion during the Indo-Russian Inter-Governmental Commission on Military-Technical Cooperation meeting between the Defence Ministers of the two countries earlier this month. The system has had several defects in its launch vehicles, outlaying fire controls and data transmission, which led to delays in its operationalisation in the service, the sources said. The Smerch long range rocket systems have a range of over 60 kms, almost three times the distance of the present Indian artillery rocket systems. India had signed two deals in December 2005, and March 2007, with Russian firm Rosoboronexport for importing 42 of the MBRL systems along with launcher, transloader and command and control systems. Smerch MBRL along with the Russian-origin Grad 122 mm rocket systems and indigenous Pinaka form the important part of the Indian Army's firepower."
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Yeti
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I can understand why panda wants AP but it wont happen
---------- Post added at 07:57 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:55 AM ----------
Petty China tried to block the ADB loan but to no use and they kicked up a stink when PM Singh went there but again no use.
Martian2
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China "has launched about 30 military spacecraft." India has launched zero.
In the next Sino-Indian war, China has at least 30 military spacecraft to observe the conflict. Keep in mind that China is continuously launching more military satellites each year. India is still trying to launch its first military satellite.
When war breaks out, China will use its ASAT (Anti-SATellite missile) to destroy the lone or few Indian satellites. While China can closely follow military developments in real time, India has no clue what is happening. Fighting a far superior opponent and being blind to events on the battlefield are a recipe for another Indian military disaster.
The following citations prove that China has dozens of military satellites and India has none. Since one country can observe the battlefield and the other cannot, who do you think is going to win the next border war?
China's Military Space Surge | SpaceRef - Your Space Reference
"China's Military Space Surge
By Craig Covault, Aerospace America
Posted Wednesday, March 9, 2011
China's surging military space program is poised to challenge U.S. aircraft carrier operations in the Pacific, as Chinese military spacecraft already gather significant new radar, electrooptical imaging, and signal intelligence data globally.
During 2010, China more than doubled its military satellite launch rate to 12. This compares with three to five military missions launched each year between 2006 and 2009. Since 2006, China has launched about 30 military related spacecraft. Its total of 15 launches in 2010 set a new record for China and for the first time equaled the U.S. flight rate for a given year.
Most U.S. public and media attention has focused on China's occasional manned flights and its maturing unmanned lunar program. But China's military space surge reveals a program where more than half of its spacecraft are like 'wolves in sheep's clothing,' posing a growing threat to U.S. Navy operations in the Pacific. India's navy is also concerned.
"This is a really big deal. These military spacecraft are being launched at a very rapid pace" says Andrew S. Erickson, a Naval War College expert on China's naval and space forces. China is becoming a military space power within a global context." At least three or four different Chinese military satellite systems are being networked to support China's 1,500 km+ range DF-21D antiship ballistic missile (ASBM) program, say U.S. analysts. The DF-21D is being designed to force U.S. Navy aircraft carrier battle groups and other large U.S. allied warships to operate hundreds of miles farther away from China or North Korea than they do today.
The ASBM "has undergone repeated tests and has reached initial operational capability," Adm. Robert Willard, commander of the U.S. Pacific Command said recently in Tokyo. The new Chinese space capabilities, combined with development of the DF-21D, are already having an effect on the planning of future operations in the Pacific, says Secretary of Defense Robert Gates.
"I'm trying to get people to think about how do we use aircraft carriers in a world environment where other countries [China specifically] will have the capability, between their missile and satellite capabilities, to knock out a carrier," Gates said recently at Duke University. "How do you use carriers differently in the future than we've used them in the past?" he asked.
The full article appears in the March 2011 issue of Aerospace America published by the American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics (AIAA)."
----------
Military satellite delayed again by a year - Times Of India
"Military satellite delayed again by a year
Rajat Pandit, TNN Oct 13, 2011, 04.47AM IST
NEW DELHI: PM Manmohan Singh may wax eloquent that the military will be equipped with "all necessary means to meet all threats", including those "which go beyond conventional warfare", but no sense of urgency is being shown in the space arena.
Indian armed forces are still to get their own dedicated surveillance and communication satellites despite several years of promises and plans, leave alone offensive space capabilities like ASAT (anti-satellite) weapons or advanced directed-energy laser weapons.
Moreover, the government continues to keep the desperately-needed tri-Service Aerospace Command in cold storage, even though China has taken to the military exploitation of space, which includes ASAT capabilities, in a major way.
Top defence officials admit the much-awaited launch of the naval communication and surveillance satellite, "Rohini", has been once again delayed by a year or so. Satellites for Army-IAF will only follow thereafter.
Incidentally, during the naval commanders' conference in 2009, defence minister A K Antony had declared that the satellite to boost connectivity over sea would be launched in early-2010.
Subsequently, Indian Space Research Organization ( ISRO) had revised the satellite's "launch window" to December 2010-March 2011. But to no avail.
"There has been another big delay now...it won't be possible before end-2012 at the earliest," said an official, even as all top military commanders are currently in New Delhi for their annual brain-storming sessions.
"The problem is the repeated failures of GSLV (geosynchronous satellite launch vehicle) and indigenous cryogenic engines (ISRO is now left with only one of the cryogenic engines imported from Russia)," he added.
With no early launch in sight, talk is gaining ground that India should contemplate a foreign launcher for its GSAT-7 series of military satellites.
The 2,330-kg naval satellite is supposed to have an around 1,000 nautical mile footprint over Indian Ocean, stretching from Red Sea to Malacca Strait, to ensure "network-centric operations" and "maritime domain awareness". The IAF-Army one, in turn, will have a similar footprint over land.
The Defence Space Vision-2020 identified only intelligence, reconnaissance, surveillance, communication and navigation as the thrust areas in Phase-I till 2012. But even such capabilities, which include the critical necessity to keep 24x7 tabs on enemy troop movements, warships, airbases and missile silos as well as bolster surveillance over Indian airspace, will remain limited in the absence of dedicated military satellites.
Interestingly, while India is publicly opposed to "militarization of space", the defence ministry last year had come out with a "Technology Perspective and Capability Roadmap" till 2025 which identified space warfare as a priority area, as was first reported by TOI."
In the next Sino-Indian war, China has at least 30 military spacecraft to observe the conflict. Keep in mind that China is continuously launching more military satellites each year. India is still trying to launch its first military satellite.
When war breaks out, China will use its ASAT (Anti-SATellite missile) to destroy the lone or few Indian satellites. While China can closely follow military developments in real time, India has no clue what is happening. Fighting a far superior opponent and being blind to events on the battlefield are a recipe for another Indian military disaster.
The following citations prove that China has dozens of military satellites and India has none. Since one country can observe the battlefield and the other cannot, who do you think is going to win the next border war?
China's Military Space Surge | SpaceRef - Your Space Reference
"China's Military Space Surge
By Craig Covault, Aerospace America
Posted Wednesday, March 9, 2011
China's surging military space program is poised to challenge U.S. aircraft carrier operations in the Pacific, as Chinese military spacecraft already gather significant new radar, electrooptical imaging, and signal intelligence data globally.
During 2010, China more than doubled its military satellite launch rate to 12. This compares with three to five military missions launched each year between 2006 and 2009. Since 2006, China has launched about 30 military related spacecraft. Its total of 15 launches in 2010 set a new record for China and for the first time equaled the U.S. flight rate for a given year.
Most U.S. public and media attention has focused on China's occasional manned flights and its maturing unmanned lunar program. But China's military space surge reveals a program where more than half of its spacecraft are like 'wolves in sheep's clothing,' posing a growing threat to U.S. Navy operations in the Pacific. India's navy is also concerned.
"This is a really big deal. These military spacecraft are being launched at a very rapid pace" says Andrew S. Erickson, a Naval War College expert on China's naval and space forces. China is becoming a military space power within a global context." At least three or four different Chinese military satellite systems are being networked to support China's 1,500 km+ range DF-21D antiship ballistic missile (ASBM) program, say U.S. analysts. The DF-21D is being designed to force U.S. Navy aircraft carrier battle groups and other large U.S. allied warships to operate hundreds of miles farther away from China or North Korea than they do today.
The ASBM "has undergone repeated tests and has reached initial operational capability," Adm. Robert Willard, commander of the U.S. Pacific Command said recently in Tokyo. The new Chinese space capabilities, combined with development of the DF-21D, are already having an effect on the planning of future operations in the Pacific, says Secretary of Defense Robert Gates.
"I'm trying to get people to think about how do we use aircraft carriers in a world environment where other countries [China specifically] will have the capability, between their missile and satellite capabilities, to knock out a carrier," Gates said recently at Duke University. "How do you use carriers differently in the future than we've used them in the past?" he asked.
The full article appears in the March 2011 issue of Aerospace America published by the American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics (AIAA)."
----------
Military satellite delayed again by a year - Times Of India
"Military satellite delayed again by a year
Rajat Pandit, TNN Oct 13, 2011, 04.47AM IST
NEW DELHI: PM Manmohan Singh may wax eloquent that the military will be equipped with "all necessary means to meet all threats", including those "which go beyond conventional warfare", but no sense of urgency is being shown in the space arena.
Indian armed forces are still to get their own dedicated surveillance and communication satellites despite several years of promises and plans, leave alone offensive space capabilities like ASAT (anti-satellite) weapons or advanced directed-energy laser weapons.
Moreover, the government continues to keep the desperately-needed tri-Service Aerospace Command in cold storage, even though China has taken to the military exploitation of space, which includes ASAT capabilities, in a major way.
Top defence officials admit the much-awaited launch of the naval communication and surveillance satellite, "Rohini", has been once again delayed by a year or so. Satellites for Army-IAF will only follow thereafter.
Incidentally, during the naval commanders' conference in 2009, defence minister A K Antony had declared that the satellite to boost connectivity over sea would be launched in early-2010.
Subsequently, Indian Space Research Organization ( ISRO) had revised the satellite's "launch window" to December 2010-March 2011. But to no avail.
"There has been another big delay now...it won't be possible before end-2012 at the earliest," said an official, even as all top military commanders are currently in New Delhi for their annual brain-storming sessions.
"The problem is the repeated failures of GSLV (geosynchronous satellite launch vehicle) and indigenous cryogenic engines (ISRO is now left with only one of the cryogenic engines imported from Russia)," he added.
With no early launch in sight, talk is gaining ground that India should contemplate a foreign launcher for its GSAT-7 series of military satellites.
The 2,330-kg naval satellite is supposed to have an around 1,000 nautical mile footprint over Indian Ocean, stretching from Red Sea to Malacca Strait, to ensure "network-centric operations" and "maritime domain awareness". The IAF-Army one, in turn, will have a similar footprint over land.
The Defence Space Vision-2020 identified only intelligence, reconnaissance, surveillance, communication and navigation as the thrust areas in Phase-I till 2012. But even such capabilities, which include the critical necessity to keep 24x7 tabs on enemy troop movements, warships, airbases and missile silos as well as bolster surveillance over Indian airspace, will remain limited in the absence of dedicated military satellites.
Interestingly, while India is publicly opposed to "militarization of space", the defence ministry last year had come out with a "Technology Perspective and Capability Roadmap" till 2025 which identified space warfare as a priority area, as was first reported by TOI."
Its like he had all the ammo ready
Martian2
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China's J-STARS
In the next Sino-Indian war, China controls the high ground and this will spell doom for India.
1. China controls the ultimate high ground of space. With its operational Beidou-2 navigational system of GPS satellites (see citation below), China can deliver a GPS-guided cruise (or ballistic) missile onto any Indian military target that it sees.
In an earlier post, I provided a citation for 30 Chinese military-related satellites and the lack of a single dedicated Indian military satellite. With the advantage of dozens of Chinese spy satellites, China can see the Sino-Indian battlefield in realtime and continuously bomb any concentration of Indian troops or military assets.
2. China has 1,800 short-range ballistic missiles (SRBMs) facing Taiwan that can be redeployed to the Sino-Indian battlefield. Obviously, China has plenty more SRBMs in storage for use against Japan and South Korea. Altogether, the Chinese arsenal numbers in the thousands of SRBMs and cruise missiles. If China desires, it can move into a war-production mode and manufacture a few more thousands of missiles from its efficient factories.
The thousands of Chinese SRBMs and cruise missiles will deal a hammer blow to Indian military units. During the opening days of the next Sino-Indian war, the Indian military will be left in tatters as its airbases and army bases are shredded by thousands of Chinese cruise and ballistic missiles, which are guided to their targets by the Beidou-2 navigational system.
3. After delivering devastation to Indian military units with Chinese missiles, China's thrice-larger air force (with more modern fighters than India's) will quickly dominate the airspace. This is where China's J-STARS enter the picture to efficiently identify Indian ground targets for elimination.
4. China has at least four J-STARS (or Tu-154M/D Careless) for ELINT (i.e. ELectronic INTelligence).
Chinese Military Aviation | China Air Force
"Tu-154M/D Careless
A number of Tu-154M/Ds (Type I/II) have been converted into ELINT aircraft, even through they are disguised under the cover of a civilian China United Airline registration. While Type I were believed to carry a BM/KZ800 ELINT system, Type II features a canoe shaped fairing under the fuselage which has been speculated to house an experimental synthetic aperture radar (SAR) to provide high-resolution ground mapping images, a capability similar to American E-8 J-STARS. Besides the SAR radar, the aircraft still retains some original EW and ELINT equipment, as indicated by the semi-spherical fairings and other small antennas under the rear fuselage. So far there are at least 4 of these modified Tu-154M/Ds (B-4015, B-4024, B-4029 & B-4138). Tu-154M/D (Type I) first entered the service with PLAAF in 1995.
- Last Updated 5/2/11"
Chinese J-STAR B-4015 with "an enlarged under-fuselage fairing reportedly accommodating a ground-mapping synthetic aperture radar."
Chinese J-STAR B-4024
Chinese J-STAR B-4029
Chinese J-STAR B-4138
This video discusses the capabilities of an American J-STAR. We can expect comparable functionality from a Chinese J-STAR.
E-8A Joint Surveillance Target Attack Radar System (Joint STARS) - YouTube
Modern J-STARs have upgraded displays.
JointSTARS.wmv - YouTube
----------
Spirent Adds Compass/BeiDou-2 Capability to GSS8000 Simulator | Inside GNSS
"Spirent Adds Compass/BeiDou-2 Capability to GSS8000 Simulator
October 28, 2011
...
The Compass system is a project by China to develop an independent global satellite navigation system. The system is being deployed in three phases. Beidou-2, the second phase, is reported to be on track to be operational by early 2012 and will support regional operation from a network of geostationary and inclined orbit satellites."
In the next Sino-Indian war, China controls the high ground and this will spell doom for India.
1. China controls the ultimate high ground of space. With its operational Beidou-2 navigational system of GPS satellites (see citation below), China can deliver a GPS-guided cruise (or ballistic) missile onto any Indian military target that it sees.
In an earlier post, I provided a citation for 30 Chinese military-related satellites and the lack of a single dedicated Indian military satellite. With the advantage of dozens of Chinese spy satellites, China can see the Sino-Indian battlefield in realtime and continuously bomb any concentration of Indian troops or military assets.
2. China has 1,800 short-range ballistic missiles (SRBMs) facing Taiwan that can be redeployed to the Sino-Indian battlefield. Obviously, China has plenty more SRBMs in storage for use against Japan and South Korea. Altogether, the Chinese arsenal numbers in the thousands of SRBMs and cruise missiles. If China desires, it can move into a war-production mode and manufacture a few more thousands of missiles from its efficient factories.
The thousands of Chinese SRBMs and cruise missiles will deal a hammer blow to Indian military units. During the opening days of the next Sino-Indian war, the Indian military will be left in tatters as its airbases and army bases are shredded by thousands of Chinese cruise and ballistic missiles, which are guided to their targets by the Beidou-2 navigational system.
3. After delivering devastation to Indian military units with Chinese missiles, China's thrice-larger air force (with more modern fighters than India's) will quickly dominate the airspace. This is where China's J-STARS enter the picture to efficiently identify Indian ground targets for elimination.
4. China has at least four J-STARS (or Tu-154M/D Careless) for ELINT (i.e. ELectronic INTelligence).
Chinese Military Aviation | China Air Force
"Tu-154M/D Careless
A number of Tu-154M/Ds (Type I/II) have been converted into ELINT aircraft, even through they are disguised under the cover of a civilian China United Airline registration. While Type I were believed to carry a BM/KZ800 ELINT system, Type II features a canoe shaped fairing under the fuselage which has been speculated to house an experimental synthetic aperture radar (SAR) to provide high-resolution ground mapping images, a capability similar to American E-8 J-STARS. Besides the SAR radar, the aircraft still retains some original EW and ELINT equipment, as indicated by the semi-spherical fairings and other small antennas under the rear fuselage. So far there are at least 4 of these modified Tu-154M/Ds (B-4015, B-4024, B-4029 & B-4138). Tu-154M/D (Type I) first entered the service with PLAAF in 1995.
- Last Updated 5/2/11"
Chinese J-STAR B-4015 with "an enlarged under-fuselage fairing reportedly accommodating a ground-mapping synthetic aperture radar."
Chinese J-STAR B-4024
Chinese J-STAR B-4029
Chinese J-STAR B-4138
This video discusses the capabilities of an American J-STAR. We can expect comparable functionality from a Chinese J-STAR.
E-8A Joint Surveillance Target Attack Radar System (Joint STARS) - YouTube
Modern J-STARs have upgraded displays.
JointSTARS.wmv - YouTube
----------
Spirent Adds Compass/BeiDou-2 Capability to GSS8000 Simulator | Inside GNSS
"Spirent Adds Compass/BeiDou-2 Capability to GSS8000 Simulator
October 28, 2011
...
The Compass system is a project by China to develop an independent global satellite navigation system. The system is being deployed in three phases. Beidou-2, the second phase, is reported to be on track to be operational by early 2012 and will support regional operation from a network of geostationary and inclined orbit satellites."
Fasih Khan
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They Would ... Weather you like it or not !!!
Martian2
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Got these babies there now
Give me a break.
Brahmos has 290km range. Chinese CJ-10A has 2,000 to 2,000km range.
We'll smoke you from very far away.
Yeti
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