China Clones the Tor M1

[highlander]

It is a double edged sword for the Russians, they cannot turn down the Chinese market and at the same time when they sell things...the Chinese would clone it or bring out an improved version.

Such irony for the Russians.

well most of the systems that the Russians are selling to the Chinese are basically old Soviet platforms and not the best that they have or are currently developing. This sale to China only serves the purpose of generating cash to keep Russian defense firms afloat and keep the R&D going. The Russians themselves see the Chinese as threat in the long term.

Russia preferring to jointly develop new weapon systems with India instead of China would add merit to my above stated argument.

 

[Penguin]

February 15, 2008: China has apparently cloned another Russian weapon, in this case the Tor-M1 air defense system. The Chinese version is called HQ17. China has earlier bought 30 Tor M1 systems.
The Tor-M1 is known to NATO as the SA-15 Gauntlet. It has a maximum range of 12 kilometers. It is only effective up to 6,000 meters altitude. The system was designed as a successor to the SA-N-8 Gecko. Each launcher carries eight missiles, and it is claimed to be capable of engaging two targets simultaneously. The system was designed to be a tactical battlefield air-defense system, designed to take out close-air-support planes like the A-10 or tactical fighter-bombers like the F-4, F-16, and F-18.
It is thought that China wants such a low altitude system for defense against new Taiwanese cruise missiles. However, cruise missile, which go as fast as 880 kilometers per hour, and comes in at very low altitudes, would be hard for the Tor-M1 to hit. A single Tor would have 49 seconds at most to engage a cruise missile if it detects the missile at its maximum range. That is a pretty big if, as radar performance declines against low-altitude targets. This assumes the missile will hit. If the missile misses (not an unthinkable occurrence in some circumstances), then more have to be fired.
There are vulnerabilities as well. Most Taiwanese combat planes can easily fly at altitudes above 6000 meters. These aircraft would have the option of either attacking the Tor systems themselves (and clearing the road for cruise missiles or combat aircraft to attack the main target), or going for the main target itself.
Tor could also be neutralized by sending in UAVs or target drones on a flight profile similar to that flown by combat aircraft or cruise missiles. This was the technique used in the 1991 Gulf War against the Iraqi air defense system. The Iraqis fired at the drones, revealing the location of the missile batteries and drawing very prompt attention from American Wild Weasels. The Iraqi system was neutralized very quickly.

Air Defense: China Clones the Tor M1

The PLA has acquired at least 35~60 Russian Tor-M1 (NATO codename: SA-15 Gauntlet) short-range surface-to-air missile (SAM) systems in 1997~99 to modernise the air defence of its ground forces. The PRC may also be negotiating a license to produce the Tor-M1 systems and its missiles locally under the designation HQ-17.

Tor-M1 (SA-15) Surface-to-Air Missile - SinoDefence.com

There is not cloning or reverse engineering involved: license production. 49 seconds is a sea of time, considering that CIWS have less than 10 seconds. Besides:

Reaction time is 5~8 seconds from detection; missiles can be launched at 3 second intervals

Tor-M1 (SA-15) Surface-to-Air Missile - SinoDefence.com

 

[Black Stone]

well most of the systems that the Russians are selling to the Chinese are basically old Soviet platforms and not the best that they have or are currently developing. This sale to China only serves the purpose of generating cash to keep Russian defense firms afloat and keep the R&D going. The Russians themselves see the Chinese as threat in the long term.

It doesn't matter if it is old aslong as the cloned system is an effective one. Also, it is very unlikely the Russians would sell you the latest tech anyways. The important thing is that the Chinese could grasp the foundational tech. of those purchased systems. This would allow them to learn and enhance the system to make it even better, with given time, they could come out with indigenous versions.

Yes, this does generate cash for the Russians, but like all businesses it is a two way gain. One gets cash and the other gets the system and the opportunity to learn from it.

Yes, the Russians does see the Chinese as a threat in the long run because they know that one day, the Chinese tech and capability would surpass the them. But for the time being for finanacial and political reasons, they would have to work with the Chinese and selling them arms.

Russia preferring to jointly develop new weapon systems with India instead of China would add merit to my above stated argument.

That is because the Russians prefer to work with the Indians because they don't see the Indians as much threat as the Chinese. They know that the Indians would not clone their products. They also like to sell to Indians as India is also a big arms market for them.

 

[Penguin]

well most of the systems that the Russians are selling to the Chinese are basically old Soviet platforms and not the best that they have or are currently developing. This sale to China only serves the purpose of generating cash to keep Russian defense firms afloat and keep the R&D going. The Russians themselves see the Chinese as threat in the long term.

Russia preferring to jointly develop new weapon systems with India instead of China would add merit to my above stated argument.

Just out of curiosity, what - if any - system(s) have the Russians adopted to replace the Tor M1? Moreover, what - if any - chinese system(s) do(es) what Tor M1 does?