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China Claims Its New Anti-Stealth Radars Can Detect the F-22

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China Claims Its New Anti-Stealth Radars Can Detect the F-22
Nov 11, 2016
China showed off what it claims is an anti-stealth radar system at this month's Zhuhai Air Show. If true, the radar threatens to undo hundreds of billions in U.S. spending on stealth warplanes.

China showed off two anti-stealth radars at Zhuhai. The first, the JY-27A 3-D long-range surveillance/guidance radar, is a Very High Frequency (VHF) radar that, according to Shephard Media, is the Chinese military's first active-phased array radar. VHF radars, with their longer wavelengths, are more likely to detect stealth aircraft, and it's been known that China has been working on them for some time now.


Phased-array radars, unlike traditional "dish" radars, are flat panels composed of hundreds of smaller transmit/receive panels. While traditional radars are like turning on a flashlight in a dark room—everyone can see where the beam of light is coming from—phased array radars are more difficult to detect. They're also less susceptible to jamming.

The article states "There are unverified claims that the radar can pick up hostile stealth fighters at ranges of up to 500km (310 miles.)" If so, that would out-stick American stealth aircraft, revealing them before they could get into a fight.

Another anti-stealth radar on display at Zhuhai was the JY-26 Skywatcher-U. This radar works in a broader bandwidth, in VHF and Ultra-High Frequency bands. According toShephard Media, it has a range of 310 miles and can track up to 500 targets at once. Intriguingly, it claims that while under development in Shandong, China it was able to track American F-22 Raptors flying over South Korea.

If this is true, the U.S. military could be in big trouble. The Pentagon has spent hundreds of billions on stealth technology over the past thirty years, on everything from the F-117A Nighthawk stealth fighter to the B-2 bomber and the F-22 Raptor. The F-35 Joint Strike Fighter project is estimated to cost everyone involve more than a billion dollars. All of those planes could have been a lot cheaper if not for the hard work of making them stealth, and if that advantage turns out to be useless that is a ton of money mostly wasted.

While China's claim of detecting the F-22 sounds impressive, there is one awfully big caveat to go along with it. F-22 Raptors did briefly visit Osan Air Force Base in South Korea on February 17th, 2016. However, they were fitted with external fuel tanks that allowed them to easily make the trip from Kadena Air Force Base in Okinawa to Osan. Large drop tanks hanging off their wings would have ruined their stealthy profile, making them much more visible to radar, so it's not entirely surprising that a radar would have detected them.

Does this mean stealth is dead? Not every radar is a VHF radar, and stealth is still useful against radars that are not VHF. Stealth also likely decreases the range at which radars such as Skywatcher can acquire targets. Stealth is part of the package of essential features of a modern combat aircraft, as important as electronic countermeasures, radars, or and defensive systems. Stealth, whether anyone likes it or not, is here to stay.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/a23846/china-anti-stealth-radars-detect-f-22/
 
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China Claims Its New Anti-Stealth Radars Can Detect the F-22
Nov 11, 2016
China showed off what it claims is an anti-stealth radar system at this month's Zhuhai Air Show. If true, the radar threatens to undo hundreds of billions in U.S. spending on stealth warplanes.

China showed off two anti-stealth radars at Zhuhai. The first, the JY-27A 3-D long-range surveillance/guidance radar, is a Very High Frequency (VHF) radar that, according to Shephard Media, is the Chinese military's first active-phased array radar. VHF radars, with their longer wavelengths, are more likely to detect stealth aircraft, and it's been known that China has been working on them for some time now.


Phased-array radars, unlike traditional "dish" radars, are flat panels composed of hundreds of smaller transmit/receive panels. While traditional radars are like turning on a flashlight in a dark room—everyone can see where the beam of light is coming from—phased array radars are more difficult to detect. They're also less susceptible to jamming.

The article states "There are unverified claims that the radar can pick up hostile stealth fighters at ranges of up to 500km (310 miles.)" If so, that would out-stick American stealth aircraft, revealing them before they could get into a fight.

Another anti-stealth radar on display at Zhuhai was the JY-26 Skywatcher-U. This radar works in a broader bandwidth, in VHF and Ultra-High Frequency bands. According toShephard Media, it has a range of 310 miles and can track up to 500 targets at once. Intriguingly, it claims that while under development in Shandong, China it was able to track American F-22 Raptors flying over South Korea.

If this is true, the U.S. military could be in big trouble. The Pentagon has spent hundreds of billions on stealth technology over the past thirty years, on everything from the F-117A Nighthawk stealth fighter to the B-2 bomber and the F-22 Raptor. The F-35 Joint Strike Fighter project is estimated to cost everyone involve more than a billion dollars. All of those planes could have been a lot cheaper if not for the hard work of making them stealth, and if that advantage turns out to be useless that is a ton of money mostly wasted.

While China's claim of detecting the F-22 sounds impressive, there is one awfully big caveat to go along with it. F-22 Raptors did briefly visit Osan Air Force Base in South Korea on February 17th, 2016. However, they were fitted with external fuel tanks that allowed them to easily make the trip from Kadena Air Force Base in Okinawa to Osan. Large drop tanks hanging off their wings would have ruined their stealthy profile, making them much more visible to radar, so it's not entirely surprising that a radar would have detected them.

Does this mean stealth is dead? Not every radar is a VHF radar, and stealth is still useful against radars that are not VHF. Stealth also likely decreases the range at which radars such as Skywatcher can acquire targets. Stealth is part of the package of essential features of a modern combat aircraft, as important as electronic countermeasures, radars, or and defensive systems. Stealth, whether anyone likes it or not, is here to stay.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/a23846/china-anti-stealth-radars-detect-f-22/
Detection is something while engagement is another ...

Quality of detection with vhf radars low and data is not enough to engage the target ... i am not sure chinese has overcome this ostacle ... as vhf radars are not new ... its is an older tech ...
 
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Detection is something while engagement is another ...
Quality of detection with vhf radars low and data is not enough to engage the target ... i am not sure chinese has overcome this ostacle ... as vhf radars are not new ... its is an older tech ...

Well, FYI ... ...

Engaging and Intercepting F-22s had been performed twice by PLAAF in ECS.
IIRC, firstly, in FEB 2015. Secondly, in FEB 2016.

PLAAF >> 2x INTERCEPTED and physically IDENTIFIED << that obsolete overhyped USAF F-22s.

===

Are you aware of some usaf F-22 facts below ...??

1.) usaf F-22s are no longer deployed in South Korea and Guam.
usaf F-22s are afraid to patrol ECS from South Korea or even SCS from Guam.

2.) usaf F-22s were shell shocked when they were shadowed by J-10A, yes J-10A,
... ... not by PLAAF best fighters.
J-10A intercepted F-22 groups twice in ECS on ( FEB 2015 and FEB 2016 ).

===

Yet, PLA did not sent out their best fighter to intercept those F-22s flown from South Korea.

Afterward, all F-22 flown back to Alaska to heal their bruised overhyped ego.
This is fact. F-22s are no longer deployed in South Korea and Guam.

***Why are F-22s not in South Korea or Guam anymore ??
Maybe, some ( Indian and americese and Israelese ) members would volunteer and answered that.

:yes4: :lol: :sarcastic:

I am sorry to break your heart.

F-22 is an obsolete design -- it does not have a DSI Air Intake Aerodynamic tech
F22--inferior--RCS--no DSI--1a.jpg



For those who are not aware ... ...

Many western Joe Blow Military Observers are OVERLOOKing the huge benefits
offered by DSI Air Intake Aerodynamic tech, they are:

#1) DSI structure significantly reduce fighter aircraft total weight
Thus, it means Longer Range + Higher Weapons Payload

#2) DSI structure significantly reduce fighter aircraft ( RCS = radar cross section ).

#3) DSI air flow significantly boost the final fighter aircraft ( T/W = thrust weight ) ratio.
 
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Here we go with the DSI nonsense again...:lol:

Detection is something while engagement is another ...

Quality of detection with vhf radars low and data is not enough to engage the target ... i am not sure chinese has overcome this ostacle ... as vhf radars are not new ... its is an older tech ...
The major problem with these long wavelengths systems is size -- as in meters or tens of meters across.

These systems would be ground based, not as mobile, inferior line-of-sight, and once transmitting the system is detectable by countermeasures. A low altitude cruise missile would do enough damage to the array to render it inoperable for hours or even days.

Long wavelengths systems are the proverbial 'last ditch' efforts that are still unproven against an experienced 'stealth' adversary.
 
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Here we go with the DSI nonsense again...:lol:


The major problem with these long wavelengths systems is size -- as in meters or tens of meters across.

These systems would be ground based, not as mobile, inferior line-of-sight, and once transmitting the system is detectable by countermeasures. A low altitude cruise missile would do enough damage to the array to render it inoperable for hours or even days.

Long wavelengths systems are the proverbial 'last ditch' efforts that are still unproven against an experienced 'stealth' adversary.

What is your opinion on widely distributed arrays of VHF antennas (or other suitable long-wavelength antennae) to guesstimate a stealth aircraft's position with somewhat more precision (if possible) and guide salvoes of Infra-Red terminally guided missiles at the aircraft.

Sorry if it's a stupid question.
 
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What is your opinion on widely distributed arrays of VHF antennas (or other suitable long-wavelength antennae) to guesstimate a stealth aircraft's position with somewhat more precision (if possible) and guide salvoes of Infra-Red terminally guided missiles at the aircraft.

Sorry if it's a stupid question.
Short answer: A threat that can be defeated.

Long answer...

I have said many yrs ago on this forum that the greatest threat to 'stealth' is the bi-static radar system, which is what you described. You said 'widely distributed arrays' and another term for that is multi-static, which is composed of many individual bi-static configurations.

Here is the basic bi-static set up...

bi-static_sys_001_zpsxsetwqhs.jpg


Imagine that we froze the F-22 in the ideal detection state for this bi-static configuration.

Basic geometry says angle of deflection equals angle of incidence (arrival). So for the above, Receiver B would receive the most ideal quantity of reflected signals off the jet. Receiver A would receive some but not as much. The two receiver stations could communicate with each other and triangulate to calculate the best spatial location of the jet.

Now here is the problem...

bi-static_sys_002_zpszdl3yxkd.jpg


I do not care if there are multiple receiver stations out there. I only care for the single transmitter.

Radar detection is a two-parts process: Transmit and Receive.

Without either, there is no detection. From this logic, there is no such beast as a 'passive radar', but that is for another argument over terminologies and semantics.

For the proposed array you want, even if there are multiple transmitters, the entire network can still be defeated either by destruction of a few transmitters, or threatening them to the extent that they cannot transmit long enough for the receivers to work.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwell_time_(radar)

Dwell time is the crucial factor that most people do not know about. Dwell time essentially mean how long does the radar signal stays on the body. The longer the better. But then again, the longer the dwell time, the better the countermeasures, either from signal interference or something more drastic like a HARM. Air defense know of the American Wild Weasels and know that we are the best in the world at this fight.

So by all means create these large and cumbersome VHF systems and talk as if the Americans have never heard of this tactic before. :lol:
 
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Well, FYI ... ...

Engaging and Intercepting F-22s had been performed twice by PLAAF in ECS.
IIRC, firstly, in FEB 2015. Secondly, in FEB 2016.

PLAAF >> 2x INTERCEPTED and physically IDENTIFIED << that obsolete overhyped USAF F-22s.

===

Are you aware of some usaf F-22 facts below ...??

1.) usaf F-22s are no longer deployed in South Korea and Guam.
usaf F-22s are afraid to patrol ECS from South Korea or even SCS from Guam.

2.) usaf F-22s were shell shocked when they were shadowed by J-10A, yes J-10A,
... ... not by PLAAF best fighters.
J-10A intercepted F-22 groups twice in ECS on ( FEB 2015 and FEB 2016 ).

===

Yet, PLA did not sent out their best fighter to intercept those F-22s flown from South Korea.

Afterward, all F-22 flown back to Alaska to heal their bruised overhyped ego.
This is fact. F-22s are no longer deployed in South Korea and Guam.

***Why are F-22s not in South Korea or Guam anymore ??
Maybe, some ( Indian and americese and Israelese ) members would volunteer and answered that.

:yes4: :lol: :sarcastic:

I am sorry to break your heart.

F-22 is an obsolete design -- it does not have a DSI Air Intake Aerodynamic tech
View attachment 351526


For those who are not aware ... ...

Many western Joe Blow Military Observers are OVERLOOKing the huge benefits
offered by DSI Air Intake Aerodynamic tech, they are:

#1) DSI structure significantly reduce fighter aircraft total weight
Thus, it means Longer Range + Higher Weapons Payload

#2) DSI structure significantly reduce fighter aircraft ( RCS = radar cross section ).

#3) DSI air flow significantly boost the final fighter aircraft ( T/W = thrust weight ) ratio.

Thanks for sharing the insite ... i am not an expert on the subject therefore i raised a query ..

I am not indian and pakistani and consider chinese as brothers ... but as i raised questions over capabilities of pakistan same i did for my brothers china based on info i have which might be wrong ... again i would like raise the point based on my limited knowledege that vhf radar will give location of f22 but will this info be precised enough to engage f22 ?

I am raising query to learn only not to troll or saying that chinese tech is inferrior ...

In both of examples it seems like a ground radar spotted f22 and asked near by j10 for escorting them out ... but are vhf radar capable to get a lock on f22 to fire the missile thats a million dollar question ...

Furthermore how would radar own sensor will pick f22 ... even most recent missiles have irst and aesa sensor in that but both will be useless against f22 unless at very close ranges ... same is the issue with chinese 5th generation i.e. j2p and j31 ... even someone spot them but to engage them other has to come close and before that game would be over for other 4th generation fighter ...

Here we go with the DSI nonsense again...:lol:


The major problem with these long wavelengths systems is size -- as in meters or tens of meters across.

These systems would be ground based, not as mobile, inferior line-of-sight, and once transmitting the system is detectable by countermeasures. A low altitude cruise missile would do enough damage to the array to render it inoperable for hours or even days.

Long wavelengths systems are the proverbial 'last ditch' efforts that are still unproven against an experienced 'stealth' adversary.
Thanks for clarification .. i agree with your point ...
 
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@The Accountant

Thanks for considering us as brother, although you are not a Pakistani.
( Sorry, maybe you want / need to change your flag to reflect your Nationality )
Pakistanis and PRC Chinese are All Weather IRON Brothers and Sisters.

:pakistan::china:

I will try to answer your questions -- by using Simple LOGIC that everybody have..
I will NOT FLOOD and Bombard you with the Mumbo Jumbo Technical stuffs ala @gambit.
Also, I am not trying to be arrogant at all.

===

1*) Firstly, I am sorry to say that -- whatever you read about american Stealth Invincibility before
is already obsolete for last 10 years or so.

2*) american F-22 and F-35 Stealth -- their Shaping and Coating.are already obsolete and primitive.
OTOH, ... ...
PRC Stealth is using Shaping, Unique Special Coating, and Plasma Stealth to drastically reduce J-20 RCS.

3*) Please pay attention to these 5 keywords >> 2x Tracked, INTERCEPTED and physically IDENTIFIED <<

4*) If one can perform #3, one can certainly obliterate F-22s from the sky with a Supersonic missiles.
Stealth =/= is not a Cloaking device
Stealth = minimize RCS

5*) AVIC has been selling their Anti-Stealth Radar ecosystem since ZhuHai 2014 until now.

Let's use Simple Logic ... ...
Can AVIC sell their Anti-Stealth Radar ecosystem without numerous Solid and Tangible proofs ?
Please pause for a moment, before U seek the answer.


6*) Maybe PDF super resident guru @gambit can answer -- why F-22s is hiding in Alaska now ?

===

:enjoy: :yes4:

SIDE NOTE:
BTW, Indian upcoming Rafale is an obsolete design.
Because Frenchie Rafale does not have DSI Aerodynamic tech and AESA radar optimized Nose Aerodynamic.

Therefore, both Pakistan JF-17A and JF-17B have DSI, hence
they both are superior than Frenchie Rafale and the upcoming Swedish Gripen NG in term of DSI.
 
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@The Accountant

Thanks for considering us as brother, although you are not a Pakistani.
( Sorry, maybe you want / need to change your flag to reflect your Nationality )
Pakistanis and PRC Chinese are All Weather IRON Brothers and Sisters.

:pakistan::china:

I will try to answer your questions -- by using Simple LOGIC that everybody have..
I will NOT FLOOD and Bombard you with the Mumbo Jumbo Technical stuffs ala @gambit.
Also, I am not trying to be arrogant at all.

===

1*) Firstly, I am sorry to say that -- whatever you read about american Stealth Invincibility before
is already obsolete for last 10 years or so.

2*) american F-22 and F-35 Stealth -- their Shaping and Coating.are already obsolete and primitive.
OTOH, ... ...
PRC Stealth is using Shaping, Unique Special Coating, and Plasma Stealth to drastically reduce J-20 RCS.

3*) Please pay attention to these 5 keywords >> 2x Tracked, INTERCEPTED and physically IDENTIFIED <<

4*) If one can perform #3, one can certainly obliterate F-22s from the sky with a Supersonic missiles.
Stealth =/= is not a Cloaking device
Stealth = minimize RCS

5*) AVIC has been selling their Anti-Stealth Radar ecosystem since ZhuHai 2014 until now.

Let's use Simple Logic ... ...
Can AVIC sell their Anti-Stealth Radar ecosystem without numerous Solid and Tangible proofs ?
Please pause for a moment, before U seek the answer.


6*) Maybe PDF super resident guru @gambit can answer -- why F-22s is hiding in Alaska now ?

===

:enjoy: :yes4:

SIDE NOTE:
BTW, Indian upcoming Rafale is an obsolete design.
Because Frenchie Rafale does not have DSI Aerodynamic tech and AESA radar optimized Nose Aerodynamic.

Therefore, both Pakistan JF-17A and JF-17B have DSI, hence
they both are superior than Frenchie Rafale and the upcoming Swedish Gripen NG in term of DSI.
Brother calm down ...

Before declaring me non.pakistani check my previous posts ...

may be you are right about stealth detection ... however what i have studied is otherwise ...

Lets leave it as i am not an expert on stealth so my understanding could be faulty and i accept your point of view ...

And yes we are iron brothers ...

:china::pakistan:
 
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