China announces $178.2 billion military budget

[Mujahid Memon]

they steal from countries this is locly

At least didn't steal people's homes

 

[Figaro]

China used Rhenium in their superalloy.

The previous unreliability of the WS-10 had nothing to do with its design, even if its core is based on the rather unfavorable CFM-56. The main problem was the manufacturing processes of the superalloys and powder metallurgy disks. This took a very long time to solve and it wasn't only until a few years ago that the manufacturing yield rates reached levels comparable to developed engine makers. Chinese single crystal superalloy and PM disks are pretty caught up with the world ... the DD22 and FGH99 are pretty advanced for this area. The problem lies in the manufacturing of these alloys as opposed to the development.

Here is an article from around the time of the breakthrough :

Mass production of turbine blades by Chinese private firm to benefit military - Global Times

www.globaltimes.cn

 

[UKBengali]

IN a war situation how does engine reliability matter that much as long as their economy can make them- what matters is performance. Their economy will produce as many engines as they want But for countries importing engines then reliability is critical .

No, not at all.

Engine reliability and performance is good from an economics point of view - both for the producing country and also export attractiveness.

 

[UKBengali]

The previous unreliability of the WS-10 had nothing to do with its design, even if its core is based on the rather unfavorable CFM-56. The main problem was the manufacturing processes of the superalloys and powder metallurgy disks. This took a very long time to solve and it wasn't only until a few years ago that the manufacturing yield rates reached levels comparable to developed engine makers. Chinese single crystal superalloy and PM disks are pretty caught up with the world ... the DD22 and FGH99 are pretty advanced for this area. The problem lie in the manufacturing of these alloys.

Here is an article from around the time of the breakthrough :

Mass production of turbine blades by Chinese private firm to benefit military - Global Times

www.globaltimes.cn

My opinion is that China is between Russian and US levels of reliability/lifespan of engines.

Modern technology like supercomputers and 3D printing will definitely help the catch-process.

The US needed many decades of experience to get to this level and China cannot make shortcuts without the long and painful learning curve, even with the help of supercomputers and 3D printers.

China will get to US levels of engine tech but this may have to wait another 20 years.

 

[Figaro]

My opinion is that China is between Russian and US levels of reliability/lifespan of engines.

Modern technology like supercomputers and 3D printing will definitely help the catch-process.

The US needed many decades of experience to get to this level and China cannot make shortcuts without the long and painful learning curve, even with the help of supercomputers and 3D printers.

China will get to US levels of engine tech but this may have to wait another 20 years.

I totally agree ... for right now, I just want to see a picture of the WS-15 or at least get some of its latest specs . The best information we have to off of dates back in 2012, with the photo of the engine demonstrator dating back to 2009.

 

[CAPRICORN-88]

My opinion is that China is between Russian and US levels of reliability/lifespan of engines.

Modern technology like supercomputers and 3D printing will definitely help the catch-process.

The US needed many decades of experience to get to this level and China cannot make shortcuts without the long and painful learning curve, even with the help of supercomputers and 3D printers.

China will get to US levels of engine tech but this may have to wait another 20 years.

In your opinion China will needed 20 years?
Based on what?
I totally disagree. China is almost there. Probably 3~5 years behind USA at the most.
Mark my word.
We won't have to wait for long based on the path of development.

 

[Figaro]

In your opinion China will needed 20 years?
Based on what?
I totally disagree. China is almost there. Probably 3~5 years behind USA at the most.
Mark my word.
We won't have to wait for long based on the path of development.

If the deputy director of the 606th Institute (responsible for WS-10 and WS-15) is to be believed, the gap is less than ten years. This was from 2014.

http://errymath.blogspot.com/2014/11/zhuhai-air-show-2014-ws-10-engine-is.html#.Vrz1wFLNza0
Interview with Mr. Dong, a exhibitor of China aviation research 606 institute on production of WS-10 engine :

Taihang engine really capable? Standing next to Taihang turbojet engine WS-10 Mr. Dong said that WS-10 engine is now fully operational and matured.

WS-10 engine is Chinese Aviation Research Institute 606's product, Mr.Dong is exhibitor of China aviation research 606 institute, these days every day he stood in the hall, elaborate WS-10 engine story to professional and non professional vistors. Mr.Dong said, he graduated from Nanjing University majoring in Aeronautics & Astronautics and started to participate in the development of WS-10 engine since his graduation.

WS10 pre-study started from year 1978, project set up in year 1987. Mr.Dong said, WS10 had been massively mounted on the J-10 B and J-11B fighters.

Online some articles reveal, Taihang engine outer culvert box, using the composite, which greatly reduce the weight, also improves the strength and the ability of resistance to high temperature. Mr. Dong with a reporter standing besides Taihang engine, pointing to the black pitch appearance of the engine that said: ‘this is our unique characteristics,previously used here is steel or titanium alloy. Now with this newly developed composite material, which is much lighter/higher temperature resistance/higher strength’.

Mr.Dong said WS-10 thrust to weight ratio at about 8 (the ratio of thrust to weight refers to the Trust power per unitary weight). The fourth generation engines, are all around 8 TW ratio. He also revealed, several China aviation research insitutes now are jointly developing the 5th generation fighter turbojet engine with TW ratio 10. The Chinese military fans called it the WS-15 峨眉 ,which fugures stealthy layout.

The J-10B as a lightweight fighter capable of carrying nearly 8 tons of weapons and excellent mobility performance, all credit to having a strong China 'heart' of WS-10 series.

Following is the Dialogue details about WS-10 indigenous engine with Mr.Dong:

Sino US engine gap less than 10 years

Reporter: 120kn-140kn what is the meaning?

Mr. Dong: Taihang developed many kinds of DERIVATIVES, the newest WS-10 series engine has reached 140 KN thrust. (Su-35 engine thrust of 145 KN)

Reporter: Achieve this thrust, that is to say the Taihang engine and Su-35's 117s engine thrust being roughly equivalent?

Mr. Dong: Yes, and we are still moving forward, the past few years has been to improve and develop. This is the new WS-10 engine, which have shaped up.

Reporter: It has started MASS production?

Mr. Dong: Mass service on the J-10B, J 11B.

Reporter: why the J-10, such as PLAAF eight one aerobatic team still with Russian engines?

Mr.Dong: China had bought so many Russian engine, We still utilize those engine until the life span expired.

Reporter: Can you please shed some light on the life sapn of WS10 compared with Russian and United States fouth generation engine?

Mr. Dong: We are slightly inferior in that part,while we have a larger room for progress. Such as some of the material shows good performance data in scientific research test, but in practical application, is still not satisfactory. It is the difficult part of aero engine development, It takes decades to improve its stability and even so with USA, not including the conceptual phase of the engine.

Reporter: Online question said that WS10 ENGINE has less than 300 hours life hours, whether this is true?

Mr.Dong: This is wrong, WS10's life is over 1500 hours, completely in accordance with the design requirements. 300 hours is the span between each regualr maintenance .

Reporter: Our engine gap with the US is there for 10 years?

Mr.Dong: Less than 10 years.

 

[CAPRICORN-88]

Even Rolls Royce of UK and Germany are ordering turbine blades and other aerospace components from China.
But China is already working on the next generation of non fossil fuel engines.
We are now looking at the report on China R&D on plasma jet engines for commercial airliners.

https://asiatimes-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/asiatimes.com/2020/05/chinese-researchers-create-prototype-plasma-jet-engine/?amp_js_v=a3&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQFKAGwASA%3D#aoh=15993900968200&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fasiatimes.com%2F2020%2F05%2Fchinese-researchers-create-prototype-plasma-jet-engine%2F

 

[CAPRICORN-88]

If the deputy director of the 606th Institute (responsible for WS-10 and WS-15) is to be believed, the gap is less than ten years. This was from 2014.

http://errymath.blogspot.com/2014/11/zhuhai-air-show-2014-ws-10-engine-is.html#.Vrz1wFLNza0
Interview with Mr. Dong, a exhibitor of China aviation research 606 institute on production of WS-10 engine :

Taihang engine really capable? Standing next to Taihang turbojet engine WS-10 Mr. Dong said that WS-10 engine is now fully operational and matured.

WS-10 engine is Chinese Aviation Research Institute 606's product, Mr.Dong is exhibitor of China aviation research 606 institute, these days every day he stood in the hall, elaborate WS-10 engine story to professional and non professional vistors. Mr.Dong said, he graduated from Nanjing University majoring in Aeronautics & Astronautics and started to participate in the development of WS-10 engine since his graduation.

WS10 pre-study started from year 1978, project set up in year 1987. Mr.Dong said, WS10 had been massively mounted on the J-10 B and J-11B fighters.

Online some articles reveal, Taihang engine outer culvert box, using the composite, which greatly reduce the weight, also improves the strength and the ability of resistance to high temperature. Mr. Dong with a reporter standing besides Taihang engine, pointing to the black pitch appearance of the engine that said: ‘this is our unique characteristics,previously used here is steel or titanium alloy. Now with this newly developed composite material, which is much lighter/higher temperature resistance/higher strength’.

Mr.Dong said WS-10 thrust to weight ratio at about 8 (the ratio of thrust to weight refers to the Trust power per unitary weight). The fourth generation engines, are all around 8 TW ratio. He also revealed, several China aviation research insitutes now are jointly developing the 5th generation fighter turbojet engine with TW ratio 10. The Chinese military fans called it the WS-15 峨眉 ,which fugures stealthy layout.

The J-10B as a lightweight fighter capable of carrying nearly 8 tons of weapons and excellent mobility performance, all credit to having a strong China 'heart' of WS-10 series.

Following is the Dialogue details about WS-10 indigenous engine with Mr.Dong:

Sino US engine gap less than 10 years

Reporter: 120kn-140kn what is the meaning?

Mr. Dong: Taihang developed many kinds of DERIVATIVES, the newest WS-10 series engine has reached 140 KN thrust. (Su-35 engine thrust of 145 KN)

Reporter: Achieve this thrust, that is to say the Taihang engine and Su-35's 117s engine thrust being roughly equivalent?

Mr. Dong: Yes, and we are still moving forward, the past few years has been to improve and develop. This is the new WS-10 engine, which have shaped up.

Reporter: It has started MASS production?

Mr. Dong: Mass service on the J-10B, J 11B.

Reporter: why the J-10, such as PLAAF eight one aerobatic team still with Russian engines?

Mr.Dong: China had bought so many Russian engine, We still utilize those engine until the life span expired.

Reporter: Can you please shed some light on the life sapn of WS10 compared with Russian and United States fouth generation engine?

Mr. Dong: We are slightly inferior in that part,while we have a larger room for progress. Such as some of the material shows good performance data in scientific research test, but in practical application, is still not satisfactory. It is the difficult part of aero engine development, It takes decades to improve its stability and even so with USA, not including the conceptual phase of the engine.

Reporter: Online question said that WS10 ENGINE has less than 300 hours life hours, whether this is true?

Mr.Dong: This is wrong, WS10's life is over 1500 hours, completely in accordance with the design requirements. 300 hours is the span between each regualr maintenance .

Reporter: Our engine gap with the US is there for 10 years?

Mr.Dong: Less than 10 years.

Based on my observation, Chinese have always very modest with their claims.
It is in the culture.

 

[UKBengali]

I totally agree ... for right now, I just want to see a picture of the WS-15 or at least get some of its latest specs . The best information we have to off of dates back in 2012, with the photo of the engine demonstrator dating back to 2009.

If the deputy director of the 606th Institute (responsible for WS-10 and WS-15) is to be believed, the gap is less than ten years. This was from 2014.

http://errymath.blogspot.com/2014/11/zhuhai-air-show-2014-ws-10-engine-is.html#.Vrz1wFLNza0
Interview with Mr. Dong, a exhibitor of China aviation research 606 institute on production of WS-10 engine :

Taihang engine really capable? Standing next to Taihang turbojet engine WS-10 Mr. Dong said that WS-10 engine is now fully operational and matured.

WS-10 engine is Chinese Aviation Research Institute 606's product, Mr.Dong is exhibitor of China aviation research 606 institute, these days every day he stood in the hall, elaborate WS-10 engine story to professional and non professional vistors. Mr.Dong said, he graduated from Nanjing University majoring in Aeronautics & Astronautics and started to participate in the development of WS-10 engine since his graduation.

WS10 pre-study started from year 1978, project set up in year 1987. Mr.Dong said, WS10 had been massively mounted on the J-10 B and J-11B fighters.

Online some articles reveal, Taihang engine outer culvert box, using the composite, which greatly reduce the weight, also improves the strength and the ability of resistance to high temperature. Mr. Dong with a reporter standing besides Taihang engine, pointing to the black pitch appearance of the engine that said: ‘this is our unique characteristics,previously used here is steel or titanium alloy. Now with this newly developed composite material, which is much lighter/higher temperature resistance/higher strength’.

Mr.Dong said WS-10 thrust to weight ratio at about 8 (the ratio of thrust to weight refers to the Trust power per unitary weight). The fourth generation engines, are all around 8 TW ratio. He also revealed, several China aviation research insitutes now are jointly developing the 5th generation fighter turbojet engine with TW ratio 10. The Chinese military fans called it the WS-15 峨眉 ,which fugures stealthy layout.

The J-10B as a lightweight fighter capable of carrying nearly 8 tons of weapons and excellent mobility performance, all credit to having a strong China 'heart' of WS-10 series.

Following is the Dialogue details about WS-10 indigenous engine with Mr.Dong:

Sino US engine gap less than 10 years

Reporter: 120kn-140kn what is the meaning?

Mr. Dong: Taihang developed many kinds of DERIVATIVES, the newest WS-10 series engine has reached 140 KN thrust. (Su-35 engine thrust of 145 KN)

Reporter: Achieve this thrust, that is to say the Taihang engine and Su-35's 117s engine thrust being roughly equivalent?

Mr. Dong: Yes, and we are still moving forward, the past few years has been to improve and develop. This is the new WS-10 engine, which have shaped up.

Reporter: It has started MASS production?

Mr. Dong: Mass service on the J-10B, J 11B.

Reporter: why the J-10, such as PLAAF eight one aerobatic team still with Russian engines?

Mr.Dong: China had bought so many Russian engine, We still utilize those engine until the life span expired.

Reporter: Can you please shed some light on the life sapn of WS10 compared with Russian and United States fouth generation engine?

Mr. Dong: We are slightly inferior in that part,while we have a larger room for progress. Such as some of the material shows good performance data in scientific research test, but in practical application, is still not satisfactory. It is the difficult part of aero engine development, It takes decades to improve its stability and even so with USA, not including the conceptual phase of the engine.

Reporter: Online question said that WS10 ENGINE has less than 300 hours life hours, whether this is true?

Mr.Dong: This is wrong, WS10's life is over 1500 hours, completely in accordance with the design requirements. 300 hours is the span between each regualr maintenance .

Reporter: Our engine gap with the US is there for 10 years?

Mr.Dong: Less than 10 years.

It is not clear what he means by 10 years.
He may mean when he thinks the WS-15 will be ready and so the Chinese finally have the latest same gen fighter engine as the US.

The other important thing is that he gives around a 1500 hour lifespan of the WS-10, which is still around 1/5th of the equivalent US engines of the time.

If we look at the civilian side CJ-1000A, which is though to be comparable to the old LEAP-1B, that has now been put back to 2028 for introduction on C919.

 

[Grandy]

WS-15 “Emei” vector engine is targeting the US F119 engine but has a larger thrust-to-weight ratio than F119 engine (11.6 tons of WS-15 vs 10.7 tons of F119 mass version).

 

[Figaro]

View attachment 669074

WS-15 “Emei” vector engine is targeting the US F119 engine but has a larger thrust-to-weight ratio than F119 engine (11.6 tons of WS-15 vs 10.7 tons of F119 mass version).

Belongs in the aeroengine thread. Plus a T/W 11.6 WS-15 sounds quite high ... where is the source of this information?

 

[UKBengali]

Belongs in the aeroengine thread. Plus a T/W 11.6 WS-15 sounds quite high ... where is the source of this information?

No "source" can actually be relied on that much unless it is announced by PLAAF or the engine manufacturer.

The best we can do is logical deduction from engines that China currently has in existence.

Let us take the most powerful comparable Chinese engine as being the WS-10B at 140kN.

Since I cannot get any figures for the weight of WS-10 then let us assume that it is like the AL-31F which has a T/W ratio of 8.2 at 122.6kN thrust.

140/122.6 x 8.2 gives you T/W ratio of 9.4.

If China can achieve nearly 10:1 T/W ratio with it's 4th gen WS-10, then 11.6 T/W ratio for the WS-15 does not seem that difficult to achieve.