China All Su-35 news

[AUSTERLITZ]

1) Once again, you are serving a lot of c-r-a-p, and you are calling other people names. It's funny, I just have to laugh, because you don't have any argument. You only reply to what you "can" reply to; which fits you - and even that is not even based on facts.

Let's start:

2) Stera-whatever class corvette is produced in extremely limited number, and Russians are not happy with them. Furthermore, once again, Algeria which has 190 billion USD reserves and which you called "poor", prefers Chinese and German frigates, and not your supah dupah 1800 tonn Stera-whatever class corvette from Russia.

Grema-whatever class which is an "upgrade" of Stera-whatever class corvette, is not even ready. Russia expect first of these corvettes to enter service in 2015, if that ever happens.

3) I know you hate F-22P frigates, which are by the way designed as "light frigates". It's because Pakistan is receiving them. China on the other hand does not use these light frigates since China already have 15 Type 054A stealthy frigates in service already. Another 3 are being built and 2 more will be built, total of 20. This will be done by 2015. Which means China will have 20 Type 054A stealth frigates in service by the time 1st Supah Dupah Grema-whatever class corvette has been commisioned. These are 4300 ton ships compared to your small corvettes.

Second of all, alongside Pakistan and Thailand, Algeria have ordered these frigates, clearly better than Supar Dupah 1800 ton Stera-whatever class corvette

Now, Thailand wants to buy 3 Type 054A stealthy frigates and is competing against the U.S. 3000 ton L-Combat Ship (LCS). Thailand seem to prefer 054A, since Thailand has already bought other earlier versions of Chinese frigates several years ago.

Jane's: China intends to Thailand export 3 054 the frigate (Figure) - Military News

This means most likely, that the model of even newer 054B frigate is ready around 2015. However, In contrast to you, I don't put much weight to imaginary projects which haven't been produced yet. Therefore I am rather pointing out that China has 15 054A already in service, and will have additional 3 in 2014, and additional 2 in 2015, total of 20. That is something we can be sure off, compared to Russians who are talking about lets say Admiral Gorskhov frigate which still does NOT have one single frigate operational.

2 Gorskhov frigates is being built as we speak, and is expected to be ready in 2015, LOL. 1 Grema-whatever class corvette is expected to be ready in 2015.

So to sum this up. 2 Gorskhov frigate and 1 Grema-corvette in 2015 will be ready VERSUS 20 Type 054A frigates, 6 Type 054C destroyers, and at least 4 Type 052D destroyers.

You still wanna do the numbers which ships are better, not to mention who has more of them 2013-2014-2015 timeline ?

Russia has planned up to 20 Gorskhov frigates. Do you seriously think Russia will be able to build that by 2020, when you look at the fact that 1st and 2nd frigate will be ready in 2014?

Here is your socalled "state-of-the-art" frigate; according once again to Russian sources, it wil WAY TO EXPENCIVE.

State-of-the-art frigates too expensive for Russia - English pravda.ru

What has Russia done to compensate for SLOW and EXPENCIVE building? Russia has gone to Admiral Grigorovich-class frigate which is LIGHTER than Gorskhov-class frigate. That means Russia is going BACK on building ships, while PLANs ships are getting stealthier, bigger, more armed and advances and more in numbers.

So by 2015, Russias fleet of new ships will be 3 Grigorovich-class frigates (3850 ton), 2 Gorkhov frigates (4500 ton) and 1 Grema-whatever class corvette (2200 ton)

VERSUS

20 Type 054A frigates (4300 ton), 6 Type 052C destroyers (7000 ton), at least 4 052D destroyers (7500-7800 ton)

And you are sitting here and telling us that "Russian ships are soooooo amazing" and sooo much stealthier and sooooooo much better armed, LMAO.

So please keep whining about how "useless" Type 056 corvette is, while we are building 054A, soon 054B and 052C and 052D destroyers. I am sure you were laughing when we produced 84 Type 022 missile boats which pack 8 anti-ship missiles each, total of 672 anti-ship missiles on those 84 stealth missile boats. However missile boats nor 056 corvettes are the back of our navy as we speak. It's 054A and soon 054B, 052C and 052D against your Supah Dupah Gorskhov and Grigorovich-class frigates that are not even operational, LOL.

4) Yeah, Russia is building Improved Kilo-class for themselves because Russia doesn't have any! LOL. That's funny, because all Improved Kilo-class subs are after all exported to other countries.

I am not sure it helps the Russian Navy bragging about Improved Kilo-class SSK when they have 0 Improved Kilo-class subs and is sitting only with old Kilo-class subs with highly questionable combat readiness. China on the other hand has 12 Improved Kilo-class subs. India har only 5 Improved Kilo-class subs, and 5 standard Kilo-class subs.

Algeria which you called poor and showed your low intelligence, has 4 Improved Kilo-class subs now, and Vietnam which is poor will even have 6 of them by 2017.

It doesn't help much for the Russian Navy when they have 0 today, does it? LOL.

There is NO deal for Lada-class yet. If there is, it is going to be joint-project between Russia and China. Rumor about buying Su-35 has been on since 2008.

Once again, point is Russia itself failed to produce Lada-class by themselves, and China is NOT buying anything that Russia can't even produce for their customer. I really don't know where you head is, but it is definitely not on your shoulders.

J-10 was never in competition in Myanmar - however, China has sold older frigates to Myanmar which Myanmar wanted, and they got them. Now Thailand will most likely get a lot bigger and better frigates from China, where China will most likely win over the U.S. counterpart in Thailand.

So the only FAIL here, must be your lies which you present time and time, hoping no one will call you out, while you are calling others for idiot. I will refrain from calling you that, since I can't stop laughing here, and it is highly questionable why I even am replying to you. It's more to show everyone how you lie - people might start believing your fantasies, but I don't have much time to waste either way, so this is my last reply to your lies and name calling.

6) Once again, imaginary stuff just as LMFS. Russia "stating". I think I have already produced more than enough evidence, when Russia is "stating something" it always comes out very late, more expencive than planned and in small numbers.

The same thing about "wonderful" T-50 that will be owned by the majority of other countries, and not by Russia itself. 200 for Russia, and more than 750-800 for other countries, LOL.

Just as you stated that T-50 will be ready in 2015, back in 2010. Now it's in 2016, and many are saying 2017.

Just as you stated that India will buy 200 of these, now it's 144.

Just as Russian sources stated that China will buy up to 100 T-50 only months before J-20 and J-31 were revealed. Now China will buy ZERO T-50.

Now, once again, Russia is "stating" that this MBT will be ready in 2015 and that 2300 units will be produced by 2020, which is total BS. Russia is claiming faster production rate than the U.S. in another words, for a product that is supposed to be even better than M1A2 Abrams. Don't make me laugh, seriously.

Russia might produce Armata in 2015. But the numbers Russia is operating with should be adjusted, such as taking a number 0 away of the original number. I think 230 units might be more realistic, and not 2300.

So far everyone know that you are bragging about wonderful Russian weapons such as:

1) T-90 MBT
2) Improved Kilo-class SSK
3) Su-30
4) Su-35
5) T-50

Yet, number 1, 2, 3 and 4 on my list is owned in majority by other countries, while there are very few T-90 in Russian Armed Forces, ZERO Improved Kilo-class subs, no more than 6 or 10 Su-30 and barely introducing Su-35 which you clearly alongside T-50 also plan selling majority of total production numbers to other countries.

I am sure in a case of conflict, it counts a lot for Russian Armed Forces knowing that while other countries have T-90, Improved Kilo-class subs, Su-30 and soon Su-35, the Russians would have to fight today with old Kilo-class SSK, majority of their tanks being old T-72, 200 of their 291 MiG-29 CAN'T even fly and who knows how many of those Su-27 can fly too.

While Russia is towards modernization throughout 2025 and having all these plans on the paper, China is already ahead, and you also think China will sit still from 2013-2025, right? Right, LOL.

I wish you luck with your 2 Gorskhov class frigates in 2015, alongside 3 Grigorovich and 1 Supah Dupah Gre-whatever class corvette.
And we will have fun having our 20 Type 054A frigates, 6 Type 052C and 4 Type 052D by 2015, alongside not only 12 Improved Kilo-class subs but also 14-15 Song-class SSK and 8 + Yuan/Improved Yuan class SSK, total of more than 34-35 SSK.

2]Again typical chinese mentality of quantity over quality,the discussion is about tech not numbers.And in technology the stereguschy corvettes are far better than ANYTHING china has to offer in that range of corvette/light frigate.
3]Again same story,counting numbers of inferior ships.Numbers are lesser due to recovering russain economy not chinese super technology.Tech and weaponry of gorshkov class is FAR superior to chinese frigates lol.
4]Same numbers game,kilo is russian weaponry it can have any amount it wants when it wants?What does it have to do with china?Useless chinese tech can't build a diesel submarine better than kilo bragging about being superior tech,negotiating for lada reject.Several chinese sources reported this.Whatever only proves my point that china has no comparable tech to kilo or lada.
5]J-10 was in trials in myanmar,just because it failed now chinese fanboys trying to cover up.It was reported all over the net.Heck even ur best buddy PAF rejected J-10 in its current form coz it doesn't meet standards and waiting for better versions.Contract was signed in 2006 for 36 j-10 but due to poor quality even soft loan j-10 not acceptable to PAF.
6]Again noob putting comments in my mouth i said nothing of those.T-50 IS MILES ahead of j-20 which poor mans' mig-1.44 copy,canards for vastly reduced stealth,an aircraft that won't even supercruise or TVC without begging to russia for better engines.2300 units will be produced,not by 2020.Chinese fascination with numbers is very amusing.You know u got crap quality,so harping on about quantity in a tech discussion.
ARMATA is light years ahead of poor design ztz-99 as proved with diagrams in earlier posts.
It doesn't matter to me if china sits still or not because china vs russia war is not my problem,but china and russian tech IS,because india uses russian tech so that affects us directly and its conclusively proved that russian tech is WAAAY ahead of chinese crap.Get that through ur head 5 footer.

 

[PRC2025]

2]Again typical chinese mentality of quantity over quality,the discussion is about tech not numbers.And in technology the stereguschy corvettes are far better than ANYTHING china has to offer
3]Again same story,counting numbers of inferior ships..Tech and weaponry of gorshkov class is FAR superior to chinese frigates lol.
4]Same numbers game,kilo is russian weaponry it can have any amount it wants when it wants?

5]J-10 was in trials in myanmar,just because it failed now chinese fanboys trying to cover up.It was reported all over the net.Heck even ur best buddy PAF rejected J-10 in its current form coz it doesn't meet standards and waiting for better versions.Contract was signed in 2006 for 36 j-10 but due to poor quality even soft loan j-10 not acceptable to PAF.

6]Again noob putting comments in my mouth i said nothing of those.T-50 IS MILES ahead of j-20 which poor mans' mig-1.44 engines.2300 units will be produced,not by 2020.Chinese fascination with numbers .
ARMATA is light years ahead of poor design ztz-99 as proved with diagrams in earlier posts.
its conclusively proved that russian tech is WAAAY ahead of chinese crap.Get that through ur head 5 footer.

Once again, you could not answer normally, but start calling not only me but all Chinese more or less indirectly for stupid. This is funny, because I continue laughing. Someone who is so aggressive, means have serious problems by arguing for what you are defending.

1) No, the "typical" PLA mentality today is BOTH number AND tech. For Russian Armed Forces on the other hand, it seems to be all about how many units they can sell to OTHER countries while RuAF and RuNavy are sitting with old c-r-a-p.

So Stere-whatever class 1800 ton corvette is superior to everything China has? LOL. I don't find this even worth replying too. This is truly a waste of time.

2) Oh really, so 1 Gorskhov class frigate which will be ready in the beginning of 2014, and 2nd one during 2015, you say Gorskhov is better than Type 052C or Type 052D destroyer? Funny boy!!!

Second of all, yes, numbers and tech count. When you understand that having 30 Gorskhovs or 30 Type 052C and D is a lot better than having only 2, then we can discuss further.

Newest info now is that Russia has reduced the number of Gorskhovs to 6 by 2020, and total number of 20 according to Russia can only be achieved by next 20 years, around 2032, yaaaayyy! lol.

3) Yes, Improved Kilo-class SSK is Russian weaponry and Russia has 0 of them, PLAN has 12. PLAN has also Song-class SSK and even better Improved Yuan-class SSK.

This, 6 years ago - at least we have Improved Kilos, Song, Improved Yuan = total 34 SSK, Russia 0 Improved Kilo-class subs, only old standard Kilos where half of those 16 don't even work.

The uninvited guest: Chinese sub pops up in middle of U.S. Navy exercise, leaving military chiefs red-faced | Mail Online

4) Pakistan is struggling with it's economy, and there is no problem with J-10 at all. Pakistan would have picked J-10 if the price was close to JF-17. Furthermore JF-17 is something Pakistan is producing, while J-10 doesn't give Pakistan a production line.

Argentine is interested in JF-17 too and wants joint-production for JF-17.

Argentine officials confirm joint-production talks over China's FC-1 fighter - IHS Jane's 360

So once again I am LAUGHING, you are using Myanmar as "source", which has lower GDP PPP per capita than North Korea. They can't afford modern J-10.

You are also forgetting that China owns JF-17 equally as Pakistan does, yet China has NOT, and is NOT intending to introduce JF-17 in PLAAF. So you have NO logic at all, because if J-10 "sucked", China would have introduced JF-17 Block 2 in PLAAF LONG TIME AGO.

5) Once again; while you are calling J-20 and J-31 for "poor mans" fighter, just as Algeria was "poor" according to you, lol, it's funny when an Indian who is defending Russia starts calling China and Algeria for "poor" where China and Algeria hold 3.400 billion and 190 billion USD respectivly. You are such a funny boy

Those imaginary T-50 sales number just keep going down, don't they, lol.

6) Once again, Imaginary Armata is "light years ahead" according to an Indian. Wow, there we go, I am so "overwhelmed". LMAO.

So you are saying that 2300 will NOT be produced by 2020?

Why does Russian sources say that 2300 WILL be produced by 2020? Because they are deluded, as always. Everything Russia has said for the past 10-15 years was always LATE, more expencive and in MUCH LESS numbers than originally planned.

Read here:

Minister Alexander Sukhorukov says 2300 BY 2020

Russia Plans to Field the T-99, a Radically New Main Battle Tank by 2015 - Defense Update - Military Technology & Defense News

I think he had a little too much vodka when he did this interview. 2300 units from 2015 to 2020, LOL. WHATEVER. Have fun boy, while you are waiting for Gorskhov and Grigorijevich class frigates towards 2020 and beyond we are building 052D destroyers and soon 052B frigates in addition to 10.000 + ton 055 heavy destroyer.

Now, I am a 5 footer? Such a little racist funny boy, aren't you

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

Again get it through ur head i have no interest in comparison between russian and chinese armed forces,chinese have more money obviously they will have more numbers.
The discussion emerged due to contention of some chinese members that chinese tech was superior to russian which is patently false.Tech matters to me beacuse we extensively use russian tech and will continue to do so.

As for jf-17 argument,it only means jf-17 is not on par with latest modern fighters which is true.
U keep counting nmbers..nowhere u have compared tech...

U have no frigate comparable to gorshkov,no corvtette to stereguschy,forget the now being modernized 3 kirov class battlecruisers.
I showed u before how useless ztz-99 turret design is.You are comparing it to new generation armata with unmanned turret,bustle autoloader,new gen ERA,new gun,new APFSDS lol.
So keep playing ur number fetish..in tech u have nothing on the russians.

 

[PRC2025]

Again get it through ur head i have no interest in comparison between russian and chinese armed forces,chinese have more money obviously they will have more numbers.
discussion emerged due to contention of some chinese members that chinese tech was superior to russian which is patently false.

As for jf-17 argument,it only means jf-17 is not on par with latest modern fighters which is true.
U keep counting nmbers..

U have no frigate comparable to gorshkov,no corvtette to stereguschy,forget the now being modernized 3 kirov class battlecruisers.
I showed u before how useless ztz-99 turret design is.
So keep playing ur number fetish..in tech u have nothing on the russians.

1) Chinese tech in ships IS superior OR better if you will to Gorskhov and your Stera-whatever class frigate. This is a fact, and PLAN is definitely NOT scared of any 1800 ton corvette nor is it scared of your 4000-4500 ton frigate which you will have 1 by 2014 or 2 by 2015 or now according to newest numbers, 6 by 2020.

Once again, we have 054A frigates, soon 20 of them, soon 6 O52C destroyers way more potent than your 1-2 Gorskhov class frigate, not to mention 2 052D destroyers which we will have ready within months, as we speak. We will produce 2 052D destroyers by the time your 1st Gorskhov-class frigate is ready.

2) Numbers DO count. There is possible to have TWO thoughts in your mind at the same time. One thought is technology, and the other one is numbers, and production output.

Let me once again refer to the U.S. The U.S. has very good Arleigh Burke DDGs, but what other things does U.S. have? Do they have 2 or 4 Arleigh Burke? Nooooo, they don't! They have 62 Arleigh Burke DDG! And building another 3 or 4 !

Do you understand the numbers between lets say 4 DDG and 65 DDG? LOL.

So when 200 Russian T-50s meet 2,443 U.S. F-35 and 187 F-22A, that's gonna be a LOT of fun, and NOT so fun for the Russian pilots.

So you need to understand in your head, that no matter how good Russian and Chinese tech is, Russia and China must be able to produce in big numbers also. Clearly, Russia is NOT able to do so.
The U.S. plan to lead you with 12 to 1. That's BRUTAL. BRUTAL is the word. If you count F-22A that's 13 to 1.

So China is more than enough sure that J-20 and J-31 will be comparable to F-22 and F-35, but China plans also to build a LOT of these planes, or else, there is no point in making 200 of them only, like Russia is planning or like India is planning to buy only 144.

China has to build at least 1.000, preferably more. So yeah, number are extremely important along the tech.

The same goes for lets say aircraft carriers. No matter how good Nimitz-class is, what makes them great is their capacity to load many aircraft on board. Which means, that firepower of 1 or 2 Nimitz-class carriers is NOT the same as having 10, which the U.S. does. So the U.S. would have been considerably WEAKER no matter how good tech they have IF the U.S. didn't had 10 carriers with them.

And the numbers are 62 AB DDG, 10 Nimitz carriers, and close to 40 SSN subs. Not to mention the fact that they have 3000 fighters, and plan on replacing them with 2,443 F-35, which is once again, when F-22A is added, 13 times HIGHER compared to what Russian is planning to have in their service.

So you need to understand soon enough that 3-4 Gorskhov will NEVER make Russian Navy strong, but 50 Gorskhovs will. And Russia does NOT have money nor the capacity to build 50 of them. The capacity is 6 of those frigates by 2020.

The same goes for MBT. You can have as good Armata as you want, U.S. can bomb them from the air, and if that's not enough, Armata is gonna meet 8,000 Abrams. So you see, we Chinese understand that both tech and the numbers are very important, just as the U.S. understand the same.

Everybody understands here that the U.S. military strenght would not have been close to what they have if the U.S. had lets say 2 Nimitz only with 10 Arleigh Burke class destroyers and 400-500 fighters only.

But since you are defending Russia, then I must educate you on the facts, which are clearly well-documented by myself already, regarding the tech, and I really don't see any point in discussing once again, why 054A, 052C and 052D is better than your 1800 ton to 4000 ton ships, which are both smaller, less armed and less in numbers compared to the number of stealthy ships PLAN has.

The UK, France and Germany have higher tech in several areas compared to China and Russia, but still, they don't have the power that Russia and China have in the world, because UK and France are in a massive debt and in recession, and if that French Navy carrier with 20 Rafales on bord even came close to 500 KM off the coast of China trying something hostile, then that French carrier along with it's support ships would have been dead ship pretty fast, and those 20 Rafale planes would have to taste some salty water.
UK doesn't even have carriers.

So despite UK and French tech, they still had to have help from the U.S. bombing Libya, and the UK and France were bombing for 7 straight months, before they were able to destroy a tiny country that didn't had anything to begin with anyway.

And Germany is not interested in any war at all, they just wanna sell stuff, However they know that despite their tech, they cannot be a global player. And the point here is to be a global player.

There are certain things that has to be in place in other to be a global player.

3) Since you are an Indian, I understand that using Russian tech is very important to you, and I could not care less about that, I am just stopping your misinformation and lies, because someone has to. As you can see, even Russians on this thread can see I that I am after all using Russian sources, which you are still DENYING.I think that's a shame.

4) Furthermore, once again regarding MiG-29, you need to fix yours not falling from the skies, and Russia need to fix their 200 MiG-29, so they can start flying.
IF J-10 wasn't good enough for PLAAF, we wouldn't have produced more than 220 of them. Russia has NEVER denied China MiG-29; China was simply never interested in that plane.

Russians have offered us Su-30MKK/MK2, which we have bought around 10 years ago and now they want us to buy their Su-35. Russians have even calculated in a wrong way, that China will buy 100 T-50, which is simply not true.

So the point, once again is - if China wanted MiG-29 instead of J-10, China could have got MiG-29 long time ago. As we already know, not even Algeria wanted 36 MiG-29SMT, so they were returned.

5) I seriously don't care what you think about T-99 MBT, while you keep dreaming that Russia will produce 2300 Armata MBT by 2020, which is simply laughable. I have done my part proving how deluded Russian sources are regarding the numbers they are planning; even you know they simply cannot produce 2300 by 2020. And I will definitely be watching this "project" so I can start laughing around 2014 and 2015, when another set of reports and delay and reduced numbers starts popping up, just as it did with Gorskhov, down from 20 to 15 and now down to 6 by 2020, where the number of 20 can only be achieved by 2030 or so.

And finally; 3 Kirov-class; that's the best you got? Ships from 1980s. We were talking about stealth here, and you are so desperate and knowing you don't have any argument that you had to drag in 3 Kirov-ships.

Fine, let's roll. Now we are going into "imaginary" stuff, since we are talking 5 years ahead.

Only 1 Kirov is operational, and Petar Veliky will have to go to dry dock soon to be fixed and upgraded, that will take a lot of time.

So Russia has announced that 2nd Kirov-class has to be upgraded too. You know how LONG that will take? 5 years ! That's right, 2nd Kirov-class cruiser will be ready for service in 2018 ! Do I have to start now telling you how many 052D Destroyers or even better Type 055 heavy destroyers China plan to build by 2018 ?

There are truly some nice rusty pics of this Kirov that will be ready in 2018, out there on the internet. It looks totally "stealthy and modern"

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

Numbers don't count for anything in a discussion regarding technology and ur type 054 friagets are no match for gorshkov,nor do u have anything close to the new modernized 3 kirov class battlecruisers.
The only reason russian numbers are low atm is because of recovering economy,they are nwo picking up and will ahve 30 not 4 eventually no matter u like it or not.
FOR THE LAST TIME IF U WANT TO BRAG ABOUT RUSSIAN NUMBERS TAKE IT UP WITH RUSSIAN MEMBERS,I AM ONLY TALKING ABOUT LEVEL OF TECHNOLOGY BECAUSE THAT IS RELEVANT TO ME AN INDIAN MEMBER,SINCE WE USE RUSSIAN TECH A LOT.
Russia don't need to fix mig-29s,they are buying su-35bms,mig-35s,su-30sm,su-34 and soon pak fa.Also upgrading mig-31.And again u are taking it to russian armed forces not russian tech.
I don't know where u got idea russia will sell 100 t-50 to china.Lol.Indian participation in program and funding guarantess that will never happen.
U can live in your dreamland and make lots of long irrelevant posts on numbers fact is u have not posted a single example in that very long post[which is getting irritating to reply too repeatedly] where chinese technology is superior to russian.

Topol-M-Nope
Iskander-Nope
S-400-nope
Yasen-Nope
Borei-Nope
Diesel subs-Nope
Strategic bomber tu-160- nope
Surface ships kirov class- nope
Tanks-ztz-99 flawed tank..give me a break
MBRL-Nice smerch copies
Fighters-j-10 vs mig-35,j-11[copy] vs su-35?J-20[engineless mig1.44 copy] vs t-50?Give me a break
Helicopters-Mi-28n havoc/ka-52 vs wz-10[gunship designed by kamov under contract] lol.

So shut ur trap once and for all and open it once u actually start producing high end stuff that don't depend on russian subsystems or based on russian design.

 

[PRC2025]

ur type 054 friagets are no match for gorshkov,nor do u have anything close to the new modernized 3 kirov class
The only reason russian numbers are low atm is because of recovering economy,they are nwo picking
WE USE RUSSIAN TECH A LOT.
Russia don't need to fix mig-29s,they are buying su-35bms,mig-35s,su-30sm,su-34 and soon pak fa.Also upgrading mig-31
I don't know where u got idea russia will sell 100 t-50 to china.Lol.Indian participation in program and funding guarantess that will never happen.
]

A lot of useless comments from you, as always.

Key points once again, to prove against your c-r-a-p spewing:

1) No match for Gorskhov ? Lol. Funny boy at it again, along with 3 Kirov cruisers. I LIKE how you started to "use" Kirovs in the discussion, that says A LOT, and I am laughing because of that.

Russia has 1 Kirov, and as I documented, 2nd Kirov will be ready in 2018. No one cares about rusty Kirov shells; what counts is how many are working NOW. That would be 1. The number will be 2, in 2018. FACT. Old ships, NOT stealthy. You were talking about stealth, yet you drag in Kirovs from 1980s into the discussion.

Have you seen me talk about upgraded Sovremmenny-class China has? No, because, they are today more or less useless against modern ships, and we are facing Japanese and U.S. fleets, and not your simple and only Kirov cruiser. Guess what, we have 4 Sovremmenies, and I don't even count them among modern ships PLAN has. Neither should the Russian Navy for that matter.

So what you have is 1 Kirov, and imaginary 2nd Kirov that will be ready in 2018.

2) The reason Russian numbers are LOW, is because their whole industrial complex has suffered for the past 22 years - therefore Russia needs to fix the whole building and industrial complex which has been in ruins since 1991-1992.

There is a reason why Russian Navy is desperately clinging to Kirov which is from Soviet times, because Russia is NOT able to even build 4500 ton frigate at a normal speed.
As some of Russian people has pointed out, it's between either 2 corvettes/frigates or to upgrade 2nd Kirov, which takes 5 years. Russia went for upgrading 2nd Kirov because they can't produce fast enough or big enough ships as the Russian Navy needs.

Second of all, Kirov was supposed to be the lead ship of a carrier group, and Russia is not going to have several carriers for a very long time. Kutznezov has to go to dry dock, and be upgraded. The Russian carrier is already in BAD condition. Redeploying it to The Medditeranian just because of the Syrian crisis, will take another toll at this carrier. Soon it has to be scrapped.

Quote:

The carrier returned to its home base in Severomorsk on February 17 2012 and was scheduled to enter a four year mid-life upgrade by year’s end.

Admiral Kuznetsov was scheduled for a relaunch in 2017. Pushing back the refit seems to be a blow to the Navy, as the ‘Kuznetzov’ is already considered a ‘goulag’ for seamen, due to appalling living conditions on board.

Russian Aircraft Carrier To Redeploy to the Mediterranean | Israel

Kirov is supposed to protect this aircraft carrier that is about to fall apart over the next couple of years. Soon, there is nothing to protect for that single Kirov, that has to go to dry dock too very soon.

3) Yes, India uses Russian tech A LOT.

Like where you have lost over HALF of all your Russian planes over past 40 years.

Quote:

The Rajya Sabha was informed that over the past 40 years, India had lost more than half of its MiG combat fleet of 872 aircraft. The minister disclosed that “482 MiG aircraft accidents took place till April 19, 2012″

Indian Air Force lost half of MiG fighter jets in deadly crashes | Indian Military News


Lets see how many you have lost for the past 3 years - that would be 29 fighters, actually 30, since you lost MiG-29 few days ago.

IAF lost 29 fighter planes in past 3 years: Minister | Indian Military News

4) So Russia doesn't need to fix MiG-29, yet you are telling us that MiG-29 is better than J-10, yet I have proved that China NEVER wanted MiG-29, it has BAD combat history, in every conflict, and when there is no conflict, they either can't fly or they keep falling from the skies.

Russia has been agressivly marketing MiG-35, yet no one wants it. So Russia decided to order a few for RuAF. We will see how that goes.

Clearly RuAF does not appreciate Su-30, Su-35 or T-50 for that matter since they keep selling majority of them to OTHER COUNTRIES. Who are the BIGGEST customers of the planes? NOT China for sure! If we wanted more than those Su-30MKK/MK2 we would have ordered more of them. China has own Flanker family, as well-documented.

Once again, you are not reading, I have already provided Russian source for where there is an indication that Russia expected back in 2010 to sell upto 100 T-50 to China.

Quote - news from 2010 before J-20 and J-31 were revealed

China (up to 100 units in the years 2025-2035)

Russia to export 600 Sukhoi PAK FA fifth generation jets - English pravda.ru

China didn't wanted to fund T-50, China was asked to do so. And you can't hinder Russia in regards to who Russia wants to sell their T-50s to.
India will get their own T-50 from Russia will special requirements, which has been reduced to 144 on October 16th 2012.

Quote:

India will now order just 144 of the fighters, all single-seat models, Browne said, down from an originally-intended batch of around 200, including 48 two-seaters.

http://www.turkishweekly.net/news/143727/india-to-cut-stealth-fighter-order-by-third.html

This is a net miscalculation on behalf of Russia since 2010, which now accounts for 100 imaginary T-50 to China and 56 less T-50 for India - total of 156 T-50 less than calculated in 2010.

Regarding S-400, it is also called S-300PMU3, which is basically nothing new, but a another upgrade from S-300PMU2. China was the first customer of S-300PMU2 back in "the days", and according to Jane's, China might have funded S-400 project. Either way, because of rumored partly-funding, China is expected to become first customer of S-400.

China may become first importer of Russian S-400 missile systems - official - Interfax

The rest of your reply, is also useless, and already replied too. I have no intention to lose more time on your aggressive and pointless replies which are full of personal attacks. I think it is a lot more productive to rather report your replies since they are either a spam or full of personal attacks.

As I already told you, I wish Russia and even India good luck on their projects and it is not Russian or Indian frigates and subs China is facing. We are facing a lot more potent ships and subs than that.

Russian ships will in majority be facing NATO-pact forces, and therefore 3 out of 4 Russian fleets (Northern, Baltic and Black Sea) are geared towards NATO countries. Pacific Fleet is geared towards northern Japan. So don't you worry, I have nothing against Russian ships, I wanted only to prove how much lies you are coming with, reply after reply. And I have countered all your lies.

As also pointed out, wishing good luck to Indian ships; after all, you will be eating up U.S. influence in Gulf region; it is not Chinese influence that is suffering there. Because of your build-up which is clearly geared towards domination and not only fighting Pakistan, this will not only alarm the U.S., but also Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, not to mention Gulf states that won't accept their influence there being reduced because of the Indian fleets, even though they are still occupied with Iran, you should be glad they are, or else they would soon have put full force being supporting Pakistan against India.

Either way, this doesn't concern China much, and therefore when I reply in regards to Russian or Indian ships, I have NO "bias" against them; you on the other hand, can't comment normally at all. I even comment balanced regarding U.S. ships.
Anyway, I am not interested in discussing anymore with people who are spamming and calling others for racist names.

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

PLz just see the firepower of the kirov class and compare it with ur ships..i was giving example of kirov class only as a comparison with big ships.U calling kirovs old,just check its air defence is same as ur air defence destroyers[based on s-300 series] and has huge number of them,stealth-really u expect a ship as big as that to be stealthy?Show me one ship in the world in that size that is stealthy....after modernization with newer weapons .. no comparison.
In smaller ships just compare with ur type 56 type 54 vs sereguschy/grimasyscy and gorshkov classes.World of difference.U guys don't even have a credible naval air defence on ur smaller ships.puny small range useless sams.
Calling sovremenny obsolete is another piece of crap,these upgarded sovremeny are among the biggest PLAN surface threats with their sunburn missiles.These sunburn missiles along with the klub sizzlers on the kilos are the real threats to us carrier battle groups not propaganda df-21.

Yes russian military industrial complex has suffered,but that has done more damage to their manufacturing capacity rather than technology which world class still and has got great advantage now due to free market and access to european/western civil electronics.
Its not that rusian air force doesn't appreciate its planes,its that it doesn't have enough funds or manufacturing ability to mass them as much as it would like to.Again numbers manufacturing don't matter to me,only technology level and u still haven't given any examples of superior chinese tech?

Yes we use lot of russian planes and we have lost a lot of them-
Because-Bulk of migs are over 40 yr old airframes which have exhausted their flying hrs but IAF refuses to lower flying hours and still flies minimum 180-200 hrs a yr with them.Compared to poor chinese flying hrs our pilots do routine 220-230 hr a yr and mki pilots 250+.
IAF stated policy is ,to quote a former air chief-
''I would rather lose pilots in peace than in war''-and so we do,but make no compromise on pilot quality..old airframes or not.

Mig-29 with TVC and AESA is certainly better than j-10.That is mig-35 version.Otherwise mostly equal,except j-10 still has engine issues,which makes mig-29 more attractive to customers.

China didn't fund t-50 because it was revealed to have its own 5th gen program thats why.
What has kuznetsov's living conditions to do with technology?Everyone knows russian training levels have fallen since soviet times.
Actually kirov isn't supposed to protect anything,its supposed to lead its own battlegroups,and the 2 new russian carriers now on drawing board.Russia wants to have one carrier for each fleet.

S-400 uses newer interceptor missiles with completely different performance parameters,to say its s-300 s laughable.
Also thats a propaganda report,russia has already declared it won't s-400 for a few years,after that they may give u downgraded version.Still that would only prove my point..u still buying russian tech coz its superior.

You didn't show me any examples of chinese tech superiority over russians in any of your lengthy posts..so i mostly considered ur posts useless as well.
I wish china and russia as well.Russia is old freind and as long as chinese navy doesn't interfere in IOR it will be nice to have popcorn and watch sino-US naval race in SCS.Our buildup is not geared towards domination but deterrence against chinese intrusion into our backyard.I do comment balanced usually,sometimes i use unnecessary adjectives in heated discussion so apologies for that.

 

[ptldM3]

A lot of useless comments from you, as always.



3) Yes, India uses Russian tech A LOT.

Like where you have lost over HALF of all your Russian planes over past 40 years.

Cheap comment on your behalf, but that is nothing new, all you have been doing is insulting and deviating from one topic to the next. upon losing an argument or running out of things to say you change the subject by purposefully and immaturely mentioning such topics as economy, from there you talk about Georgia, the F-35, Indian crashes, reforms, ect, ect. Next we can expect Mickey mouse and dragons since you have brought up every other random and bizarre topic.

Quote:

The Rajya Sabha was informed that over the past 40 years, India had lost more than half of its MiG combat fleet of 872 aircraft. The minister disclosed that “482 MiG aircraft accidents took place till April 19, 2012″

Do you have any idea of the attrition rate older aircraft? Even the F-16 has had 20 crashes in one year, at it's peak. Although you tried to make an insult you only revealed how ignorant and immature you are in the subject.

Link: http://www.afsec.af.mil/shared/media/document/AFD-080114-063.pdf


from a 2012 report at least 317 F-16s have crashed and 351 have been involved in class A accidents. More F-16 crashes occurred during the 1980s then any other decade because those were the earlier variants which are not as mature as today's F-16s. Even in the past decade F-16s crash at a rate of anywhere from 3-10+.

So the fact that an aircraft that is over 60 years old is crashing is not a surprise especially when you take into account years of operation, and hours flown. Furthermore, not all crashes are do to mechanical faults which is what you are implying. Crashes can occur from following reasons:

Pilot error- examples fuel starvation, altitude misjudgment.

Improper maintenance- example improper installation of overhauled components.

Bird strikes.

Pilot blackouts- Pilots passing out in high G maneuvers.

Poor wheather- example heavy fog.

Neglected maintenance- example, maintenance overhauls are extended beyond safe intervals.

Lets see how many you have lost for the past 3 years - that would be 29 fighters, actually 30, since you lost MiG-29 few days ago.

As proven crashes happen. The Chinese air force also have many documented crashes, the difference is that it is only publicly know because someone takes pictures or captures the crash on video, considering China has a large air force that has been operation for decades, you can bet that there has been hundreds of Chinese aircraft that have crashed.

4) So Russia doesn't need to fix MiG-29, yet you are telling us that MiG-29 is better than J-10,

What is there to fix? Russia is ordering new Mig-29s, as far as design goes there is nothing wrong with the aircraft, since there are spares reports of crashes involving the Mig-29 over many decades.

And yes the Mig-29 is better then the J-10 in almost every measurable way, this is not even taking into account avionics systems.

yet I have proved that China NEVER wanted MiG-29, it has BAD combat history,

Show us the kills of those amazing Chinese aircraft. A handful of Mig-29s have been shot down, some of which didn't even have functioning radars, this is hardly a fair comparison or an un-bias way to evaluate the aircrafts performance especially since Iraqi pilots have been so bad that they have been documented crashing themselves into the ground while in combat.

in every conflict, and when there is no conflict, they either can't fly or they keep falling from the skies.

Clearly another cheap shot. A handful of crashes means nothing. As if we don't have reports of J-10s crashing, or videos and reports of other Chinese aircraft crashing.

Clearly RuAF does not appreciate Su-30, Su-35 or T-50 for that matter since they keep selling majority of them to OTHER COUNTRIES. Who are the BIGGEST customers of the planes? NOT China for sure! If we wanted more than those Su-30MKK/MK2 we would have ordered more of them. China has own Flanker family, as well-documented.

Firstly, how does Russia sell the majority of SU-35s and T-50s to other countries when only Russia operates the SU-35 and the T-50 is a prototype? Furthermore, Russia sells more aircraft obroad then it operates because there is a demand for Russian aircraft, the same can not be said for Chinese aircraft. Russia also keep increasing SU-30 orders, as well as orders for other aircraft.

 

[Major Shaitan Singh]

China will actually purchase 100 instead of 24 Su-35 advanced fighters from Russia, as put down in the new contract signed during the Paris Air Show 2013, according to the Moscow-based state radio broadcaster the Voice of Russia.

About 49 Russian aviation companies, including Sukhoi, Mikoyan, Ilyushin, Antonov and Rosoboronexport, attended the Paris Air Show held between Jun 17 and 23 at Le Bourget in the French capital. To celebrate the 50th anniversary of the air show, a Su-35S fighter flew its first demonstration flight outside Russia. Described as a 4.5 generation fighter, the Su-35S treated the visitors to a display of some impressive aerobatics during the first day of the air show on June 17.

The acrobatics was designed by Sukhoi to attract attention from potential buyers, China certainly among one of them. A deal was made on Nov 2012 when Russia agreed to provide China 24 Su-35 fighters with the advanced AL-31 engine. "Upcoming supplies of the Su-35 fighters to China are 'an open secret'," said a Russian official to the Voice of Russia.

"A decision to supply the Su-35 fighters to China was made long ago," added the official. "The parties are working hard to coordinate the financial and technical conditions of the future contract, which is due by the year's end. At present, the details of the contract are being specified." With the ability to detect air targets at a distance of over 400 kilometers and a combat radius of 1,600km, the Su-35 will dominate the Asia-Pacific sky until Japan and India receive their first fifth generation fighters by 2020, said the broadcaster.

China's Su-35 fighter order reaches 100

 

[xuxu1457]

Who knows the real number? Even 100 cost 6.5billion only 5% of China's one year defence budget, not a big deal

 

[baajey]

chinese can do a favor to US, buy all their F-22s

 

[Abingdonboy]

I'll believe it when I see it.

 

[Fsjal]

Just making Russia happy that a nation buys their planes. Anyway, China is just gonna buy 24. (maybe)

 

[scherz]

Is it wartime or why china suddenly need such a high amount of advenced fighters?...

 

[Beerbal]

China will actually purchase 100 instead of 24 Su-35 advanced fighters from Russia, as put down in the new contract signed during the Paris Air Show 2013, according to the Moscow-based state radio broadcaster the Voice of Russia.

You fool me once, You are cunning. You fool me twice I am chu** (Dumb/Fool/a$$hole)...


The J-11 was finally born in 1995 as a Chinese version of the Soviet-designed Sukhoi Su-27SK air superiority fighter after China secured a $2.5 billion production agreement which licensed China to build 200 Su-27SK aircraft using Russian-supplied kits. Under the terms of the agreement, these aircraft would be outfitted with Russian avionics, radars and engines. However, in 2004, Russian media reported that Shenyang co-production of the basic J-11 was halted after around 100 examples were built. The PLAAF later revealed a mock-up of an upgraded multi-role version of the J-11 in mid-2002.



History will repeat itself, China will copy the Su35BM and aftr making 50 Su35, they will come with J11XXX ..