Chengdu J-20 5th Generation Aircraft News & Discussions

[Esc8781]

You're an idiot. I didn't ask for a citation for "Introduction to Radar" (as shown in your PDF file).

I asked for a reputable citation to back up the incredible claim that the smaller and less powerful F-35 AESA radar can jam the larger and more powerful frequency-hopping F-22 AESA radar.

Wow someone is in a bad mood , no it is an introduction to people who didn't know the basics, it is not related, but interesting.

 

[UKBengali]

You're an idiot. I didn't ask for a citation for "Introduction to Radar" (as shown in your PDF file).

I asked for a reputable citation to back up the incredible claim that the smaller and less powerful F-35 AESA radar can jam the larger and more powerful frequency-hopping F-22 AESA radar.

----------

I have been in here for over an hour and you idiots cannot show me a reputable citation to back up your bogus claim. You have wasted enough of my time.

Why do you bother?

It is clear as daylight that the F-35 will be the biggest turkey in the history of fighter aircraft.

The US needs to be able to sell this white-elephant to as many countries as possible.

Since the F-35 lacks both in top-speed and manuverability, the US has invented this ability to jam F-22 nonsense to persuade gullible countries to buy this overpriced piece of rubbish.

All of a sudden the US has this magic radar that they are implying can now jam anything!

Only idiots will believe this.

 

[gambit]

Jesus Christ, what's wrong with you guys? You never post a reputable citation to back up your crap. It gets annoying.

Do you see my post above? It has a reputable citation. Do you understand the difference between my post and your crappy rhetoric?

The F-35 has a smaller AESA radar and its jamming capability is consistent with all AESA radars. It can jam a narrow frequency range. Big deal. All AESA radars can do that. The F-22 has a bigger AESA radar and it hops over a wide range of frequencies.

Since my citation already informed you the F-35 can only jam "selectively," it means the F-35 cannot jam the larger frequency-hopping F-22 radar.

You have the wrong understanding of the word 'selectively' in that source and it came from no relevant experience.

Avionics Magazine :: F-35 Electronic Warfare Suite: More Than Self-Protection

Because the AESA array provides very directional radio frequency (RF) output, the JSF could target a very small area and selectively jam it, which enhances survivability by reducing electronic emissions.

The phrase does not say '...the JSF could ONLY target a very small area and selectively jam it...'. If the word 'only' is there, it would be a clear indicator of the AESA's limitation as a a jammer.

Instead, what it really mean is that because the AESA's superiority over other forms of radar, the F-35's EW capability can use the AESA's antenna to much more precision in direction, beamwidth, and energy level in jamming. This will lead to greater EM protection for self and friendlies in the area.

It is good that you have sources. You learned that from me. But your lack of relevant experience make your interpretations of your sources dubious.

I'm getting tired of repeating myself to you trolls over and over again. This is the last time.

How many times have we seen this 'last time' nonsense from you along with 'Chinese physics'?

The reason why you repeatedly have this 'last time' over here is because here is where your nonsense will be challenged and debunked. Your playground is intellectually dead in being nothing more than a mutual admiration society. Everyone will just simply parrot everyone else and thanked each other for 'useful' posts in a circle jerk. Stay there if you want your egotistical dick stroked.

Why do you bother?

It is clear as daylight that the F-35 will be the biggest turkey in the history of fighter aircraft.

The US needs to be able to sell this white-elephant to as many countries as possible.

Since the F-35 lacks both in top-speed and manuverability, the US has invented this ability to jam F-22 nonsense to persuade gullible countries to buy this overpriced piece of rubbish.

All of a sudden the US has this magic radar that they are implying can now jam anything!

Only idiots will believe this.

Hmmm...What can we do to change the above nonsense for the J-20's many physics defying claims...

 

[Esc8781]

Why do you bother?

It is clear as daylight that the F-35 will be the biggest turkey in the history of fighter aircraft.

The US needs to be able to sell this white-elephant to as many countries as possible.

Since the F-35 lacks both in top-speed and manuverability, the US has invented this ability to jam F-22 nonsense to persuade gullible countries to buy this overpriced piece of rubbish.

All of a sudden the US has this magic radar that they are implying can now jam anything!

Only idiots will believe this.

Man there are so many things wrong with that comment, I don't need to reply to.

 

[j20blackdragon]

Here's one way to counter the F-35's jamming.

The other main aspect of ECCM, is to program sensors or seekers to detect attempts at ECM and possible even to take advantage of it. For example, some modern fire-and-forget missiles like the Vympel R-77 and the AMRAAM are able to home in directly on sources of radar jamming if the jamming is too powerful to allow them to find and track the target normally. This mode, called 'home-on-jam', actually makes the missile's job easier. Some missile seekers actually target the enemy's radiation sources, and are therefore called "anti-radiation missiles" (ARM). The jamming in this case effectively becomes a beacon announcing the presence and location of the transmitter. This makes the use of such ECM a difficult decision; it may serve to obscure an exact location from a non-ARM missile, but in doing so it must put the jamming vehicle at risk of being targeted and hit by ARMs.

Electronic counter-countermeasures - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[j20blackdragon]

One more thing.

Just because you've jammed the F-22s radar, doesn't mean you've jammed the AN/ALR-94.

 

[Esc8781]

Image of the f-35's integrated avionics Suite compare it with the f-22 if you want.

 

[rcrmj]

Why not? Are you saying experience is irrelevant?

read post 2237

Are Chinese aircrafts under a different set of physical laws?

I always drive German cars, and never tried Korean and Japenese cars, so it gives me better understanding of German cars than K, or J cars````as I said clearly on post 2237, you are just a maintainance guy (just like my garment facotry line workers), to be told what to do, in terms of the holitic aviation industry and modern technology, you are just as much as the half cups same as the rest members here``

but, the funny part is that you are acting as if you are the one knows 'everything' and more importantly yours are 'right'``if you got refuted then you start using the same old tricks like```' i have 'experiences so you are B.S' or 'chinese physics'

you are probably around 45 but acting like 15``sad

 

[antonius123]

^^^^

Old trick of old guy: by claiming to have experience in Aviation maintenance, he thinks he know everything and demand other people to believe on him rather than to real expert on that field or valid sources

 

[IceCold]

We know that the americans have alot of experience in aviation industry and with radars since they were the first ones to successfully deploy active AESA radars while others were still struggling. Base on that rich experience, we can give the benefit of the doubt to the F-35 that it can indeed jam a much powerful F-22 radar.
But....
From a layman point of understanding, bigger is always better. The more power a radar can get, the more further it can detect ( maybe i am not choosing the right words so correct me here). The F-22 radar is bigger, its twin engines can give in more power, then how exactly a less powerful radar of the F-35 Jam F-22?

Gambit a question for you sir?
F-22 is not open for sale even to countries such as Japan, Israel while F-35 is and the reason for that is because Americans like to keep the edge. So how exactly will the edge be maintained if according to you sir, F-35 proves to be superior to the F-22 and yet is cheaper.

 

[amalakas]

read post 2237


I always drive German cars, and never tried Korean and Japenese cars, so it gives me better understanding of German cars than K, or J cars````as I said clearly on post 2237, you are just a maintainance guy (just like my garment facotry line workers), to be told what to do, in terms of the holitic aviation industry and modern technology, you are just as much as the half cups same as the rest members here``

but, the funny part is that you are acting as if you are the one knows 'everything' and more importantly yours are 'right'``if you got refuted then you start using the same old tricks like```' i have 'experiences so you are B.S' or 'chinese physics'

you are probably around 45 but acting like 15``sad

Yes, yes you have told us these before.. care to even answer on the following which I asked you before?

J-20 is the deal, CAC knows it better why using canards, and the government evaluated it (SAC's conventional config 5th gen lost to CAC's J-20 long time ago) and thinks J-20 in overall better than conventional configration.
Original Post By rcrmj

And here is a fine example of me challenging such perceptions based on your own words.

Since CAC khows better when using canards, why then Sukhoi OKB (who by the way has far greater lineage in fighter design) doesn't know better with the T-50. LM (which has produced some of the best planes globally) doesn't know better with the F-35??

See.. it has nothing to do with bashing the J-20 .. it has to do with what you present and believe ...

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/chines...ft-updates-discussions-150.html#ixzz20UXYQjFv

Remember, its your own words.

We know that the americans have alot of experience in aviation industry and with radars since they were the first ones to successfully deploy active AESA radars while others were still struggling. Base on that rich experience, we can give the benefit of the doubt to the F-35 that it can indeed jam a much powerful F-22 radar.
But....
From a layman point of understanding, bigger is always better. The more power a radar can get, the more further it can detect ( maybe i am not choosing the right words so correct me here). The F-22 radar is bigger, its twin engines can give in more power, then how exactly a less powerful radar of the F-35 Jam F-22?

Gambit a question for you sir?
F-22 is not open for sale even to countries such as Japan, Israel while F-35 is and the reason for that is because Americans like to keep the edge. So how exactly will the edge be maintained if according to you sir, F-35 proves to be superior to the F-22 and yet is cheaper.

There you go ...

There are two kinds of jamming and so that you can show us your excellent knowledge I will not identify which is which in the text below.

Right ..and this is theoretical .. like what engineers who know make educated guesses as to how it could potentially be done.



1- Let's assume the jamming system (F-35) can modulate every echo's pulse phase with noise, then as a direct result every spectrum line will be broadened. When the modulation gets sufficient the spectrum lines overspill to the entire frequency domain and cover the echo pulses. Now if we set the bandwidth to being very very narrow (as we can), the efficiency gets very very high, so you don't need too much power... get it ?

2- One can use cross polarisation jamming, this reverses the angle of error signal which is provided by the tracking filter usually. Or you can use cooperative jamming which obviously is harder to achieve.


Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/chines...ft-updates-discussions-151.html#ixzz20UYKeV5P

And just to be clear ... I have Martian2 cornered with this one and his ridiculous response .. a lot of exposing is imminent here..

 

[gambit]

read post 2237


I always drive German cars, and never tried Korean and Japenese cars, so it gives me better understanding of German cars than K, or J cars````as I said clearly on post 2237, you are just a maintainance guy (just like my garment facotry line workers), to be told what to do, in terms of the holitic aviation industry and modern technology, you are just as much as the half cups same as the rest members here``

but, the funny part is that you are acting as if you are the one knows 'everything' and more importantly yours are 'right'``if you got refuted then you start using the same old tricks like```' i have 'experiences so you are B.S' or 'chinese physics'

you are probably around 45 but acting like 15``sad

Yeeaaaa...So just because you read a few books about wars that mean you can tell a general how to plan his battles or a sniper how to shoot.

^^^^

Old trick of old guy: by claiming to have experience in Aviation maintenance, he thinks he know everything and demand other people to believe on him rather than to real expert on that field or valid sources

What is the dominant variable in longitudinal stability?

So what was your aviation 'experience' or 'study' again?

 

[amalakas]

Yeeaaaa...So just because you read a few books about wars that mean you can tell a general how to plan his battles or a sniper how to shoot.

believe on him rather than to real expert on that field or valid sources
Original Post By antonius123


Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/chines...ft-updates-discussions-152.html#ixzz20VgUwZXL

What is the dominant variable in longitudinal stability?

So what was your aviation 'experience' or 'study' again?

what I missed was who the real expert is supposed to be here...

 

[danger007]

after reading many chinese members posts..... i got one thing, that chinese got radars etc in their eyes..... they can decide whether the jet is superior or inferior just by looks..... i wonder just an ordinary chinese who read a few articles about a jet, have more knowledge than west and russian oldies who got plenty experience in jet designing etc...... i can't imagine chinese engineers who got complete knowledge about chinese physics.....

 

[gambit]

From a layman point of understanding, bigger is always better.

Basically...Yes.

The more power a radar can get, the more further it can detect ( maybe i am not choosing the right words so correct me here). The F-22 radar is bigger, its twin engines can give in more power, then how exactly a less powerful radar of the F-35 Jam F-22?

Just because you have a lot of reserve power, that does not necessarily mean every transmission is of max power. This applied even to the classic dish system. The MIG-25's radar was so powerful that it can achieve 'burn through' of most jamming back then. But its target resolutions were so poor that saying it was sh1tty was to be kind. It can barely tell the pilot the target's altitude, heading, speed, and aspect angle. All vital components BEFORE engagement. It was so bad that the best it can do tell for the pilot was the target's general direction.

Power allows range and that is good. But target resolution depends on beamwidth for ANY freq, which is inversely affected by antenna size. In other words, the larger the antenna/array the tighter the beamwidth, the smaller the array, the wider the beamwidth -- IF the same freq is used for both situations. However, if you have a smaller antenna/array but a matching higher freq, then you will have the same beamwidth as the larger antenna/array.

For most fighters, a 2-3 deg beamwidth is desirable.

The above is one degree.

That is the advantage of small beamwidth, which is a complex relationship between antenna size and freq employed. So if you want a 2-3 deg beamwidth while using the HF/VHF/UHF bands which are meters length freqs, your antenna will be literally dozens of meters span. The tighter the beamwidth, the better to discriminate targets that grouped close together.

So just because you have twin engines, that does not automatically mean your radar is better. Reserve electrical generation is a different issue.

Gambit a question for you sir?
F-22 is not open for sale even to countries such as Japan, Israel while F-35 is and the reason for that is because Americans like to keep the edge. So how exactly will the edge be maintained if according to you sir, F-35 proves to be superior to the F-22 and yet is cheaper.

I never said that the F-35 is superior to the F-22.

The F-35 is as different from the F-22 as the F-16 is from the F-15. The F-22 is a dedicated air superiority fighter with any air to ground capability as secondary. For the F-35, it is the opposite. The F-35 is intended to be a better jack-of-all-trades than the F-16. So just because the F-35 may have an advantage in one area, that does not mean it is overall 'superior' to the F-22.

what I missed was who the real expert is supposed to be here...

He said he has aviation 'experience' in trying to shut the Indians up. Then he backed down to 'study', which we have yet to know what. So the question is: What is the dominant variable in longitudinal stability?

Let us see how he respond.