Chengdu J-20 5th Generation Aircraft News & Discussions

[ptldM3]

3. JSF has bumps along its entire bottom. There is also a large protrusion above the left airduct for the cannon on the F-35A, which makes it less stealthy.

And the J-20 also has bumps as well as an array of corner reflectors, and sorry just because you say that the F-35 is less stealthy does not make it so. Reality is that companies spent large sums of money testing aircraft in anechoic chambers, as well as scrutinizing their designs by CAD programs. And this is before a team of engineers, designers, scientists, ect lay out the design and carefully choose, design, and redesign a final product that will be built with rcs reduction in mind.

4. JSF uses cheaper materials, which compromise stealth.

Post a source.

6. JSF lacks internal side weapon bays.

And that makes it inferior how?

7. The JSF is significantly smaller in physical size and can only carry a much smaller radar with less T/R (transmit/receive) modules. Since it has only one engine, the available power to the radar is also significantly less.

And what makes you think that even if the F-35 caries less T/R modules that it will be inferior? You don’t know jack about radars, stop spreading misinformation. If it was as easy as throwing a bunch of T/R models together than radar engineers would not spend years designing their radars and years testing them.

The JSF radar is clearly inferior to the F-22 and a J-20 equipped with AESA radar.

Where is the proof?

In conclusion, the JSF is no match for the J-20. The battle plan is for the F-22 to engage the J-20.

No match? ECM, weapons, data-link, training, and in general all systems working as one determines who wins.

Sensor fusion doesn't mean much when the J-20 has a larger radar and greater detection range than the F-35. Furthermore, the J-20 has a cleaner design and is stealthier than the F-35. Sending a F-35 against the J-20 is unwise.

Detecting an aircraft does not mean much, achieving and holding a lock is another story.. And even if we give you the benefit of the doubt, and say that the J-20’s radar, a radar that we know nothing about, can detect the F-35 before the F-35 can detect the J-20. We know that it does not translate to achieving a lock or even being within firing range.

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Latest J-20 "2002" Mighty Dragon photographs


Notice the gold transparent RAM on the J-20 cockpit canopy. Only China and the U.S. have this advanced material science technology.

No, we don’t notice a gold transparent ‘RAM’ canopy, because there is nothing even remotely gold to it. And I’m sorry but the technology doesn’t have anything to do with RAM, guess why the A-6 had a gold canopy?

F-35 does not know what type of radar J20 is going to use, J20 knows what F35 is using and will export. how do you and how can you jam something you dont know?

And how does the J-20 know what type of radar the F-35 has besides knowing the basic facts such as it’s an X band AESA, which the J-20 is also.





J

J-20 was develop/introduced 20 later, it has clear rivals --- F22 and F35(possible T50, but T50 is only 3.9G,

I didn’t know the Russian managed to take the latest flanker which is widely regarded as a 4.5 aircraft and make a crappier version. But 3.9? I was thinking more like 4.206245. The Chinese still use or have very recently used Russian technology in their aircraft, whether its hiring a Russian company to develop a seeker, or hiring a Russian company to help develop a radar, or just plainly importing engines and such, the point is that it’s pretty silly to listen to Chinese chest thumping when clearly China still is behind in a number of areas. Having a black jet does not automatically mean it’s futuristic.

not true stealthy). J20 has more advance/newer electronic.

Why don’t you provide a source?

J20 is the only one to be "first find, first kill" killing machine.

J-20 fan boys never disappoint when it comes to chest thumping. ‘killing machine’, ‘devastating’, ‘might dragon’.

I see the other way around, J20 will jam F35 since J20 is more powerful than F35.

I hear this a lot coming from the J-20 crew. What do you mean by ‘more powerful’? You don’t know a thing about the J-20 to make such claims. And explain exactly how the J-20 will jam the F-35, what type of jamming will it use? And please explain to everyone how you get your hands on the F-35 to know about it’s electronic counter measures.

If F35 tries to jam J20, j20 will fire missile and take it down since F20 will see further and can kill longer distance.

These silly scenarios can work both ways.

And what if F-35 does jam? What if the J-20 is out of missile range, what if the J-20 is within range but can not achieve a lock? What if the J-20 can achieve a lock but the missiles have a poor hit rate?

And how do you know that the J-20 will see further?

 

[rcrmj]

some of my factory workers have been making fashion clothing for decades, and I never made one in my entire life```but I am the one who is making decisions of what to make, what techniques to use and which market to enter, because I know what is fashion clothing as a whole``but those factory workers they just know of how to sew things together``

so please never use lines like 'i worked in this and I worked in that, thus I'm right'`coz its embarrising````so please look at what positions you are at before judging, if you are like the maintainance guy gamebit, then you are just the one who to be told to put things together, nothing more

 

[Esc8781]

And the J-20 also has bumps as well as an array of corner reflectors, and sorry just because you say that the F-35 is less stealthy does not make it so. Reality is that companies spent large sums of money testing aircraft in anechoic chambers, as well as scrutinizing their designs by CAD programs. And this is before a team of engineers, designers, scientists, ect lay out the design and carefully choose, design, and redesign a final product that will be built with rcs reduction in mind.






Post a source.








And that makes it inferior how?








And what makes you think that even if the F-35 caries less T/R modules that it will be inferior? You don’t know jack about radars, stop spreading misinformation. If it was as easy as throwing a bunch of T/R models together than radar engineers would not spend years designing their radars and years testing them.









Where is the proof?



I





No match? ECM, weapons, data-link, training, and in general all systems working as one determines who wins.









Detecting an aircraft does not mean much, achieving and holding a lock is another story.. And even if we give you the benefit of the doubt, and say that the J-20’s radar, a radar that we know nothing about, can detect the F-35 before the F-35 can detect the J-20. We know that it does not translate to achieving a lock or even being within firing range.








Notice the gold transparent RAM on the J-20 cockpit canopy. Only China and the U.S. have this advanced material science technology.



No, we don’t notice a gold transparent ‘RAM’ canopy, because there is nothing even remotely gold to it. And I’m sorry but the technology doesn’t have anything to do with RAM, guess why the A-6 had a gold canopy?













J-20 fan boys never disappoint when it comes to chest thumping. ‘killing machine’, ‘devastating’, ‘might dragon’.






eachus;3163495] I see the other way around, J20 will jam F35 since J20 is more powerful than F35.


I hear this a lot coming from the J-20 crew. What do you mean by ‘more powerful’? You don’t know a thing about the J-20 to make such claims. And explain exactly how the J-20 will jam the F-35, what type of jamming will it use? And please explain to everyone how you get your hands on the F-35 to know about it’s electronic counter measures.











These silly scenarios can work both ways.

And what if F-35 does jam? What if the J-20 is out of missile range, what if the J-20 is within range but can not achieve a lock? What if the J-20 can achieve a lock but the missiles have a poor hit rate?

And how do you know that the J-20 will see further?

Not to mention the f-22 has bumps right behind its canopy it is just one of its bump.

Anyways anyone knows what is number 50 on the f-22

 

[KRAIT]

J-20 is unproven, while JSF is somehow proven, not literally, since US raptors are proven platform, so those technologies are used in F-35. All I can say is, no official document or source is there to know what J-20 has. All people has seen is leaked photos and making things up.

 

[Martian2]

At PtldM3, your reply is basically: prove everything. I've done that over the past two years. To show my goodwill, I will address the first couple of questions on your list.

1. The F-35 uses cheaper composite materials for stealth and avoids the expensive F-22 multi-layers of stealth paint applications.

Lockheed-Martin F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter; Assessing the Joint Strike Fighter

"The stealth capability in the JSF is designed for low cost and maintainability, rather than best possible stealth performance. Stealth is achieved by a combination of shaping, detail design and absorbent/lossy materials, with shaping being the most dominant feature by some degree. While detail design and materials can evolve over the life of a design, and be upgraded incrementally to match an evolving threat, airframe shaping is fixed and whatever limits it imposes are unchangable."

2. After two years in this thread, I can only conclude you are brain dead. You're seriously telling me you don't understand why the lack of internal side weapon bays make the F-35 inferior to the J-20? It is obvious.

Let's say both the F-35 and J-20 carry MRAAM in their main underside weapon bay. Since only the J-20 has side internal weapon bays, which carry SRAAM, the F-35 is at a disadvantage in a dogfight. WVR combat is likely to occur because the AESA radar won't pick up the other fighter until close range.

No matter how you look at it, a J-20 fighter with six missiles is superior to a F-35 fighter with four missiles. I can't believe you can't figure that out yourself and I have to explain it to you.

I don't have the time or inclination to keep answering your goofy questions. If you have a serious point that I haven't covered before, I am willing to address it. However, I'm not willing to keep addressing issues that I have covered in the last two years in the J-20 threads.

 

[Esc8781]

At PtldM3, your reply is basically: prove everything. I've done that over the past two years. To show my goodwill, I will address the first couple of questions on your list.

1. The F-35 uses cheaper composite materials for stealth and avoids the expensive F-22 multi-layers of stealth paint applications.

Lockheed-Martin F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter; Assessing the Joint Strike Fighter

"The stealth capability in the JSF is designed for low cost and maintainability, rather than best possible stealth performance. Stealth is achieved by a combination of shaping, detail design and absorbent/lossy materials, with shaping being the most dominant feature by some degree. While detail design and materials can evolve over the life of a design, and be upgraded incrementally to match an evolving threat, airframe shaping is fixed and whatever limits it imposes are unchangable."

2. After two years in this thread, I can only conclude you are brain dead. You're seriously telling me you don't understand why the lack of internal side weapon bays make the F-35 inferior to the J-20? It is obvious.

Let's say both the F-35 and J-20 carry MRAAM in their main underside weapon bay. Since only the J-20 has side internal weapon bays, which carry SRAAM, the F-35 is at a disadvantage in a dogfight. WVR combat is likely to occur because the AESA radar won't pick up the other fighter until close range.

I don't have the time or inclination to keep answering your goofy questions. If you have a serious point that I haven't covered before, I am willing to address it. However, I'm not willing to keep addressing issues that I have covered in the last two years in the J-20 threads.

Global security: "An integrated airframe design, advanced materials and an axisymmetric nozzle maximize the F-35's stealth features. A quick look at the aircraft reveals an adherence to fundamental shaping principles of a stealthy design. The leading and trailing edges of the wing and tail have identical sweep angles (a design technique called planform alignment). The fuselage and canopy have sloping sides. The canopy seam and bay doors are sawtoothed. The vertical tails are canted. The engine face is deeply hidden by a serpentine inlet duct. The inlet itself has no boundary layer diverter channel, the space between the duct and the fuselage, to reflect radar energy. And, of course, weapons can be carried internally. Each internal bay contains two hardpoints onto which a wide variety of bombs and missiles can be attached. According to November 2005 reports, the US Air Force states that the F-22 has the lowest RCS of any manned aircraft in the USAF inventory, with a frontal RCS of 0.0001~0.0002 m2, marble sized in frontal aspect. According to these reports, the F-35 is said to have an RCS equal to a metal golf ball, about 0.0015m2, which is about 5 to 10 times greater than the minimal frontal RCS of F/A-22. The F-35 has a lower RCS than the F-117 and is comparable to the B-2, which was half that of the older F-117. Other reports claim that the F-35 is said to have an smaller RCS headon than the F-22, but from all other angles the F-35 RCS is greater. By comparison, the RCS of the Mig-29 is about 5m2. Much has been improved between the design of the F-22 and the F-35. The F-35 doors for landing gear and equipment, as well as control surface, all have straight lines. The F-35 does not require "saw tooth" openings to divert RF energy. One reason the openings on the F-35 are straight lines is reported to be embedded electrical wires near the edges whcih interfer with RF signals. The F-35 RAM is thicker, more durable, less expensive and, being manufactured to tighter tolerances compared to that of the F-22. The tighter tolerances means less radar signal can penetrate openings and reflect back to its source. The newer RAM is more effective against lower frequency radars, and maintenance should cost about a tenth that of the F-22 or B-2. Some forms of RAM have have electrical plates or layers within the layers of carbon composits."

Source Global security.

 

[eachus]

The Chinese still use or have very recently used Russian technology in their aircraft, whether its hiring a Russian company to develop a seeker, or hiring a Russian company to help develop a radar, or just plainly importing engines and such, the point is that it’s pretty silly to listen to Chinese chest thumping when clearly China still is behind in a number of areas. Having a black jet does not automatically mean it’s futuristic.



I hear this a lot coming from the J-20 crew. What do you mean by ‘more powerful’? You don’t know a thing about the J-20 to make such claims. And explain exactly how the J-20 will jam the F-35, what type of jamming will it use? And please explain to everyone how you get your hands on the F-35 to know about it’s electronic counter measures.


These silly scenarios can work both ways.

And what if F-35 does jam? What if the J-20 is out of missile range, what if the J-20 is within range but can not achieve a lock? What if the J-20 can achieve a lock but the missiles have a poor hit rate?

And how do you know that the J-20 will see further?

you guess China is still relies on Russians, what age is now? 1990s? Today, China can develop radars far better than Russia. there is an example, China reject Russian offer to build its own one.
The current KJ-2000 AWACS in Chinese service is equipped with a domestic AESA (active electronically scanned array),[4] also known as active phased array, radar. The radar was designed by the Research Institute of Electronic Technology (also more commonly known as the 14th Institute) at Nanjing,,,,



it starts by someone "F35 jams J20", anyway, 5G fighter is not jammer which require a lot of power, electricity power. dual engine J20 certainly can over power F35. also J20 can installed large and more powerful radar. longer range missiles. your claim of poor hit rate is clueless. Chinese lately test number of missiles with 100% hit rate.

 

[Martian2]

I hate the rumors where someone says F-35 can jam the F-22 radar. My first question is how?

The F-22 probably uses frequency hopping. How is the F-35 going to jam a wide range of frequencies? Where is all that power going to come from? The F-35 has only one small engine to supply power to the plane.

Secondly, let's assume the F-35 broadcasts in a wide range of frequencies with sufficient power to drown out the signal from the F-22 radar. That's the quickest way to die by broadcasting away the F-35's position.

I hate stupid rumors like the awesome F-35 radar can jam the F-22 (and implicitly the J-20). I haven't heard a good physics explanation of how that is possible without broadcasting the F-35's position.

 

[eachus]

AWACS and electronic jammer are not stealthy and can not be stealthy, once you emit radar and waves, everyone will see you and detect the distance and direction then you are dead. that is contradiction to the stealthy purpose. AWACS and electronic jammer require power in MW units, where fighters can only provide KW. that is a 3 digits difference.


front line air superiority fighter are all dual engine heavy fighters. back in 3rd generation, 4G and also current 5G, all no exception. only export version low cost fighter fit with single engine. F16, FC1, F35. some people call them high-low. low cost fight will make up the quantity. I am not a insider, but that is common sense that FC1, F35 will use cheaper parts or do what every they can to cut costs. F35 has lower performance is not LM's fault. high price, high quality and low price low performance. that is a ironic law in economic.

there is another reason, F35 has tens of customers, everyone add a requirement to F35 add more weight and use some more space. do you all agree F35 carry a heavy landing fan will help it fights J20 in air combat? what is the point to carry a landing fan to fight? and how does ground attack features will help air superiority.

 

[amalakas]

some of my factory workers have been making fashion clothing for decades, and I never made one in my entire life```but I am the one who is making decisions of what to make, what techniques to use and which market to enter, because I know what is fashion clothing as a whole``but those factory workers they just know of how to sew things together``

so please never use lines like 'i worked in this and I worked in that, thus I'm right'`coz its embarrising````so please look at what positions you are at before judging, if you are like the maintainance guy gamebit, then you are just the one who to be told to put things together, nothing more

Perhaps you are right. Perhaps I am just a guy who was asked to put things together.

By that reasoning though, you and others, who have never:

seen an aircraft, touch it, maintain it,
read the manuals, spend hours and hours and hours in training
go to seminars, understand exactly what each part of the plane does and how
talk to company people, express your views about the parts they are sending
Go to re-training when the planes are upgraded, learn how the plane is different than before
talk to pilots, hear them express concern or satisfaction about real missions
work with ACTUAL WEAPONS, load them on planes, maintain them, test fire them, monitor their performance.
work with REAL AVIONICS, spend months in some other country learning how to maintain it, fix it, troubleshoot it.
Learn by experience what they can and what they cannot do.
FLY with a REAL FIGHTER PLANE, to calibrate and test the equipment in realistic conditions
receive and compile data about systems performance during live firings and exercises.

are all far better to talk about things you have no "taste" for.

fine by me man. keep saying things like that.

 

[rcrmj]

Perhaps you are right. Perhaps I am just a guy who was asked to put things together.

By that reasoning though, you and others, who have never:

seen an aircraft, touch it, maintain it,
read the manuals, spend hours and hours and hours in training
go to seminars, understand exactly what each part of the plane does and how
talk to company people, express your views about the parts they are sending
Go to re-training when the planes are upgraded, learn how the plane is different than before
talk to pilots, hear them express concern or satisfaction about real missions
work with ACTUAL WEAPONS, load them on planes, maintain them, test fire them, monitor their performance.
work with REAL AVIONICS, spend months in some other country learning how to maintain it, fix it, troubleshoot it.
Learn by experience what they can and what they cannot do.
FLY with a REAL FIGHTER PLANE, to calibrate and test the equipment in realistic conditions
receive and compile data about systems performance during live firings and exercises.

are all far better to talk about things you have no "taste" for.

fine by me man. keep saying things like that.

have a look at all of your own posts, you prejudge verything just because you had 'experiences'````and very stereotyped
you might have flew few western fighters, but none Chinese ones, so that puts you in no position to judge Chinese planes and avionics (same as Chinese members)

 

[Srinivas]

Any plane with canards(which increase RCS considerably) is made for mainly dog fights which occur at visual range , I still don't understand why they are using canards on a stealth fighter like J20. Stealth and canards which incorporated into J20 are two different and opposite things or is it a chinese propaganda hiding another fighter program from the world by advertising J20.

 

[rcrmj]

Any plane with canards(which increase RCS considerably) is made for mainly dog fights which occur at visual range , I still don't understand why they are using canards on a stealth fighter like J20. Stealth and canards which incorporated into J20 are two different and opposite things or is it a chinese propaganda hiding another fighter program from the world by advertising J20.

J-20 is the deal, CAC knows it better why using canards, and the government evaluated it (SAC's conventional config 5th gen lost to CAC's J-20 long time ago) and thinks J-20 in overall better than conventional configration.

 

[WS-10 Engine]

The last time Russia was relevant was back in 1991.

China is ahead of Russia on many things.

Russia cant even do successful space launches without crashing every 5 launches, the recent joint mission to mars is proof.

 

[amalakas]

have a look at all of your own posts, you prejudge verything just because you had 'experiences'````and very stereotyped
you might have flew few western fighters, but none Chinese ones, so that puts you in no position to judge Chinese planes and avionics (same as Chinese members)

You are absolutely right there. I believe I mentioned this some time ago.

And here is where I believe the problem lies.

I am not judging the J-20! Not at all. What I am judging is the way some members believe the J-20 is the second coming of Jesus Christ. In short, I have a problem with hubris that touches on the absurd.

When for example someone comes out and says "the j-20 will be able to do this and that ...." I have to challenge it. Because there is no way someone can support this rationally.

Take the classic case of J-20 vs T-50. Personally I do not know which plane has better performance. However when someone comes (let's not name names) and says the T-50 is worst than the J-20 because of say the IRST sensor position,

as a reasonable and quite well educated person and with relative experience in the field, I have to challenge this and show where the J-20 might have similar characteristics that are overlooked out of national pride or something.

are you with me so far?

J-20 is the deal, CAC knows it better why using canards, and the government evaluated it (SAC's conventional config 5th gen lost to CAC's J-20 long time ago) and thinks J-20 in overall better than conventional configration.

And here is a fine example of me challenging such perceptions based on your own words.

Since CAC khows better when using canards, why then Sukhoi OKB (who by the way has far greater lineage in fighter design) doesn't know better with the T-50. LM (which has produced some of the best planes globally) doesn't know better with the F-35??

See.. it has nothing to do with bashing the J-20 .. it has to do with what you present and believe ...