Chengdu J-20 5th Generation Aircraft News & Discussions

[Ultima Thule]

China has been working on the Ws-10 and Ws-15, in parallel since the late 1980's. It took 15 years to produce the engine core of Ws-15, and the core meet all performance parameters in 2005.

The development of WS-15 has been going on for, at least, 27 years now, not 10-15 years.

China gained a lot of experiences in developing the Ws-10, which went into production around 2009. That helped a lot with the WS-15 project.

What they started the project of 5th gen jet engine before the project of 5th gen stealth jet that shows your mentality of a 8 year old kid and show me the prove that WS-15 project started in1980 their was project of turbofan develolpment for a canceled J-9 project
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woshan_WS-6
WS-10 project was originate from unsuccessful WS-6 project

 

[ZeEa5KPul]

If my memory serve right, prior the WTC black September, the USA military budget was around 100 - 200B dollar. Similar to today China's military budget. But after the WTC, they raise exponently to 500B USD. So I guess the current US military budget is basically a war time budget for military expenditure.

According to this:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/272473/us-military-spending-from-2000-to-2012/
It was around 300B USD in 2000. I don't find the wartime/peacetime distinction helpful in the case of the US because the US is always at war. It's been in endless war since its foundation.

 

[Ultima Thule]

@Asok give me the answer bro that WS-15's project started in 1980s, but as for your information most site including Chinese sites are also stated that WS-15 project started in late 90s not in 80s

 

[Figaro]

@Asok give me the answer bro that WS-15's project started in 1980s, but as for your information most site including Chinese sites are also stated that WS-15 project started in late 90s not in 80s

Yes. The current WS-15 started around 1995, not 1980.

 

[Asoka]

"What they started the project of 5th gen jet engine, before the project of 5th gen stealth jet? That shows your mentality of a 8 year old kid."

Yes, the preliminary research works for a high thrust TWR >= 10 engine started around late 1980's, way before J-20 was ever conceived.

It entered into high gear, after receiving the Yak 141's engine and blue prints, and hired a lot of former USSR scientist.

As I have said, engine core of Ws-15 passed the performance elevation, in 2005, and the WS-15 project was formally initiated in 2006. The research for WS-15 existed, way before the designation of WS-15 was given in 2006.

The engine with TWR >= 8, the Ws-10, started same time as the J-10 project. By mid 1990's, it was realized that Ws-10 was never going to be ready, before early 2000's, so China decided to use the Su-27's AL-31 engine with J-10.

With this decision, J-10 was able to do its first flight in 1998, and entered service around 2005.

Yes, the WS-15 was started way before J-20. This was because by early 1980's, from previous painful experiences of J-9 (which failed because its turbofan engine, was way behind schedule), China has realized that high performance turbofan engine, takes much longer to develop, than a new airframe. So they should not start together, at the same time.

If AL-31 wasn't available for J-10, but must use Ws-10, J-10 wouldn't have entered service by 2006.

China was lucky that Russia was willing to supply its state of the art, high performance engine to China.

 

[Figaro]

Didn't you say that PPP was the figure to look at? (I agree, by the way.) In PPP adjusted terms, the most conservative estimate of Chinese military spending is 285B USD (<1.4% of GDP), not less than a third of 600B USD.

The actual figure, also in PPP terms, is very likely north of 350B USD, perhaps even 400B USD (assuming 2% of GDP). China's military spending is quite healthy; it just doesn't have commensurate capabilities because it hasn't been spending such sums for very long. It's going to take a while to accumulate hardware.

And it shouldn't be looked at as number of J-20's vs. number of F-22's, what should be considered is how many fifth-generation aircraft will China field. Here I don't think the past is a good guide because China was much poorer then, and it's defense budget was nowhere near what it is now and what it will grow into in the future.

I seriously doubt that China is spending 600 billion dollars on their military. The best estimate is around 220 billion accounted for PPP or not; the PLA typically does not strictly base the budget out of a "percentage" of China's economy but in accordance with their own needs (and economic growth).

 

[Asoka]

"Yes. The current WS-15 started around 1995, not 1980."

Preliminary research works started around 1980's. By 1995, it has moved into high gear because of Yak141 engine and russian helps.

 

[Figaro]

"What they started the project of 5th gen jet engine, before the project of 5th gen stealth jet? That shows your mentality of a 8 year old kid."

Yes, the preliminary research works for a high thrust TWR >= 10 engine started around late 1980's, way before J-20 was ever conceived.

It entered into high gear, after receiving the Yak 141's engine and blue prints, and hired a lot of former USSR scientist.

As I have said, engine core of Ws-15 passed the performance elevation, in 2005, and the WS-15 project was formally initiated in 2006. The research for WS-15 existed way before the designation of WS-15 was given in 2006.

The engine with TWR >= 8, the Ws-10, started same time as the J-10 project. By mid 1990's, it was realized that Ws-10 was never going to be ready before early 2000's, so China decided to use the Su-27's AL-31 engine with J-10.

With this decision, J-10 was able to do its first flight in 1998, and entered service around 2005.

Yes, the WS-15 was started way before J-20. This was because by early 1980's, from previous painful experiences, China has realized that high performance takes much longer to develop than a new airframe. So they should not start together at the same time.

If AL-31 wasn't available for J-10, but must use Ws-10, J-10 wouldn't have entered service by 2006.

China was lucky that Russia was willing to supply its state of the art, high performance engine to China.

Asok, I seriously doubt that China had the military expenditure or even technology to jump-start a TWR greather than 10; they couldn't even design an engine greater than 7 in the 1980's (due to Deng Xiaoping's military cuts). And please cite your source on when China received their "Yak-141 blueprints and engine parts". All I know is that USSR scientists helped partially design the core of the WS-15 in the late 90's but nothing beyond that.

 

[samsara]

So many distractions in this PRIME thread...

does anyone intend to saturate this with the irrelevances or petties for this big-value fighter jet?

 

[Asoka]

Asok, I seriously doubt that China had the military expenditure or even technology to jump-start a TWR greather than 10; they couldn't even design an engine greater than 7 in the 1980's (due to Deng Xiaoping's military cuts). And please cite your source on when China received their "Yak-141 blueprints and engine parts". All I know is that USSR scientists helped partially design the core of the WS-15 in the late 90's but nothing beyond that.

The decision to develop a TWR engine was triggered by the success of the American's F119 in the 1980's. China was very very behind in Turbo fan development. To even begin a TWR 8 engine was already audacious. But China purchased the CFM56 engine, which has the same core as the General Electric F101 which powers the Rockwell B-1 Lancer strategic bomber and F-16.

This give them confidence, that they could produce a TWR 8 engine by copy it, just like the previous attempts on russian engines. They gravely underestimated the difficulties, and took them 20 years to copy this engine.

But as they said, people who don't know much of the difficulties that laying ahead, is more audacious.

As I have said, preliminary research works for TWR 10 engine was started in the 1980's, full blown developmental work didn't started until 1990's. There is a difference here.

 

[Figaro]

The decision to develop a TWR engine was triggered by the success of the American's F119 in the 1980's. China was very very behind in Turbo fan development. To even begin a TWR 8 engine was already audacious. But China purchased the CFM56 engine, which has the same core as the General Electric F101 which powers the Rockwell B-1 Lancer strategic bomber and F-16.

This give them confidence, that they could produce a TWR 8 engine by copy it, just like the previous attempts on russian engines. They gravely underestimated the difficulties, and took them 20 years to copy this engine.

But as they said, people who don't know much of the difficulties that laying ahead, is more audacious.

As I have said, preliminary research works for TWR 10 engine was started in the 1980's, full blown developmental work didn't started until 1990's. There is a difference here.

So you're saying that the WS-15 was basically a pipe dream in the 1980's. If that's the case, then the preliminary work wouldn't have been very serious ...

 

[Asoka]

So you're saying that the WS-15 was basically a pipe dream in the 1980's. If that's the case, then the preliminary work wouldn't have been very serious ...

It was a pipe dream.

Without the Russian help, without the Yak 141 and blueprints, without the purchase of the CFM56 engine, without the Su-27 and its Al-31 engine to study, and copy, I doubt even Ws-10 as completed by 2006, much less Ws-15.

You can copy an engine design, but not the metallurgy, and testing procedure manufacturing processes that produced it. That was why China had so much difficulties.

China learned the hard lessons, created the develop team, testing procedure, and manufacturing process with Ws-10, and that prepared the way for Ws-15, tremendously.

So it's a mistake to judge the progress of Ws-15, with Ws-10's long and tortuous progress.

China paid it's dues with Ws-10 by blood and toils, and learned the painful lessons.

Second attempt is always much easier than the first, as in most endeavors.

Remember, China made major advance in high temperature alloy since 2000. It's engine alloy could now stand 2000C temperature. And China made huge progress in Supercomputer design. China's supercomputers has been number 1 for several years now. That made possible very fast Computational Fluid Dynamics Simulation possible, which speed up all fields of researches, tremendously.

 

[Ultima Thule]

The decision to develop a TWR engine was triggered by the success of the American's F119 in the 1980's. China was very very behind in Turbo fan development. To even begin a TWR 8 engine was already audacious. But China purchased the CFM56 engine, which has the same core as the General Electric F101 which powers the Rockwell B-1 Lancer strategic bomber and F-16.

This give them confidence, that they could produce a TWR 8 engine by copy it, just like the previous attempts on russian engines. They gravely underestimated the difficulties, and took them 20 years to copy this engine.

But as they said, people who don't know much of the difficulties that laying ahead, is more audacious.

As I have said, preliminary research works for TWR 10 engine was started in the 1980's, full blown developmental work didn't started until 1990's. There is a difference here.

Give us the source that China started preliminary research work on WS-15 and get yak-141 engine and blue print in 80s your baseles and clueless posts worth nothing without prove, you live in your fantasy world and wishful thinking and as for your information WS-10 project started in late 80s with the project of J-10, fighter jets is designed around the jet engine instead jet engine designed around the fighter jets

 

[Figaro]

Give us the source that China started preliminary research work on WS-15 and get yak-141 engine and blue print in 80s your baseles and clueless posts worth nothing without prove, you live in your fantasy world and wishful thinking and as for your information WS-10 project started in late 80s with the project of J-10, fighter jets is designed around the jet engine instead jet engine designed around the fighter jets

I seriously doubt China ever had access to the Yak-141 engine, much less its blueprints. Unless Asok works in Liming factory or is an insider within the PLA, I find his posts very hard to beleive.

 

[Ultima Thule]

It was a pipe dream.

Without the Russian help, without the Yak 141 and blueprints, without the purchase of the CFM56 engine, without the Su-27 and its Al-31 engine to study, and copy, I doubt even Ws-10 as completed by 2006, much less Ws-15.

You can copy an engine design, but not the metallurgy, and testing procedure manufacturing processes that produced it. That was why China had so much difficulties.

China learned the hard lessons, created the develop team, testing procedure, and manufacturing process with Ws-10, and that prepared the way for Ws-15, tremendously.

So it's a mistake to judge the progress of Ws-15, with Ws-10's long and tortuous progress.

China paid it's dues with Ws-10 by blood and toils, and learned the painful lessons.

Second attempt is always much easier than the first, as in most endeavors.

Remember, China made major advance in high temperature alloy since 2000, and made huge progress in Supercomputer design. That made possible very fast Computational Fluid Dynamics Simulation possible, which speed up all fields of researches, tremendously.

Show us the source that China gets yak-141 engine and its blue print in 80s

I seriously doubt China ever had access to the Yak-141 engine, much less its blueprints. Unless Asok works in Liming factory or is an insider within the PLA, I find his posts very hard to beleive.[/QUOTEHeispri

I seriously doubt China ever had access to the Yak-141 engine, much less its blueprints. Unless Asok works in Liming factory or is an insider within the PLA, I find his posts very hard to beleive.

@Asok is a problem child on J-20 discussion thread