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Chengdu J-20 5th Generation Aircraft News & Discussions

Asok has never read the art of war... period. It specifically states not to overestimate your own capabilities while underestimating those of everyone else.

I beg to disagreed. I have read both the Chinese version of Art of War, many times, and the English translations by by Thomas Cleary, and Lionel Giles.

The Art of Deception is first mislead your enemies into making mistakes, and then delay the correction of his mistakes as long as possible by spreading conflicting informations.

That was put to practiced brilliantly by the Allies in the Invasion of Normandy.

And also put to practice brilliantly by the Chinese, regarding the J-20 project. The US has been mislead, into cancelling the formidable F-22 in 2009, by the chinese deliberate concealment on J-20's true performance, and by the CIA estimate that China will not have J-20 before 2020.

And then the correction of this mistake by re-opening the F-22 production line, was delayed to this day, by spreading disinformations about the development status of WS-15 engine and its true performance, through various internet forums.

"It specifically states not to overestimate your own capabilities while underestimating those of everyone else."

This is what the American and its Western allies has been doing regarding China. They have patented and copy-righted this arrogance and ignorance. They have been grossly underestimated China, in all other areas, especially in scientific researches and innovation.

And now, I am telling the truth about the current Chinese capabilities in military aviation, and I am being laughed at and ridiculed.

The joke is on you.
 
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Hello folks, please set aside the engine things of J-20... for nobody can confirm or support proof to anything... unless the related authority in China decides to do so by some other means... :-) or perhaps wait until the MIC-related think tanks in the USA tell us so... :-)

I do care more to see a dozen, two dozens, three dozens (dozens as in the layman's term... i/o brigades etc) and so forth... it's easier to count the numbers instead of guessing what's inside the belly. Do you agree? Let's focus other aspects of J-20.
 
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I beg to disagreed. I have read both the Chinese version of Art of War, many times, and the English translations by by Thomas Cleary, and Lionel Giles.

The Art of Deception is first mislead your enemies into making mistakes, and then delay the correction of his mistakes as long as possible by spreading conflicting informations.

That was put to practiced brilliantly by the Allies in the Invasion of Normandy.

And also put to practice brilliantly by the Chinese, regarding the J-20 project. The US has been mislead, into cancelling the formidable F-22 in 2009, by the chinese deliberate concealment on J-20's true performance, and by the CIA estimate that China will not have J-20 before 2020.

And then the correction of this mistake by re-opening the F-22 production line, was delayed to this day, by spreading disinformations about the development status of WS-15 engine and its true performance, through various internet forums.

"It specifically states not to overestimate your own capabilities while underestimating those of everyone else."

This is what the American and its Western allies has been doing regarding China. They have patented and copy-righted this arrogance and ignorance. They have been grossly underestimated China, in all other areas, especially in scientific researches and innovation.

And now, I am telling the truth about the current Chinese capabilities in military aviation, and I am being laughed at and ridiculed.

The joke is on you.
Explain how you're telling the "truth" on Chinese military aviation? Have any of your prophecies come true? Your comparison to deception vis-a-vis Art of War is also inaccurate; the PLA has already been very open about the jets capabilities and even showed a LRIP in zhuhai. Hence, the PLAAF is not the secretive monolith u claim like the ussr.
 
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Explain how you're telling the "truth" on Chinese military aviation? Have any of your prophecies come true? Your comparison to deception vis-a-vis Art of War is also inaccurate; the PLA has already been very open about the jets capabilities and even showed a LRIP in zhuhai. Hence, the PLAAF is not the secretive monolith u claim like the ussr.

Vast amount of scientific research papers exist on the internet, including the Chinese language ones that are published only in China journals, but not in English international journals.

Those papers are not accessible to foreigners, because the language barrier. This included military related papers and aeronautical and aerospace papers. And they are especially not accessible to foreign journalists, and even foreign intelligence analysts, because of their highly technical nature, and the the language barrier. You need to know the Chinese technical terms to search, and the Chinese language ability and technical ability to read and understand them.

Our Mr. Deino, despite being a diligent researcher, is lacking in both.

The Chinese aviation research is quite open, but once classified, they are strictly off limit, just like any other state or military secrets. Chinese Internet censors are rigorous active. Any reports or leaks that they don't like are quickly deleted and the individual or website is severely punished.

Now, they have even learned the technique of spreading disinformations, so that the real and false informations are so conflicting, foreign intelligence agencies couldn't trust the real one they get from human intelligence, because they couldn't tell the real one from the false.

China has not been very open about its military. They only tell, what they want the world to know. China is still very secretive, but not like the former USSR, because of the Internet.

Instead of clam down on the Internet, or cut off connection from outside, China has cleverly used the Internet to its advantages, by building a National Chinese Internet Firewall at the early days of the Internet. It could monitor and block any outside websites, it didn't like. For example, Facebook, Google, Youtube . . . No other country has done that (probably except N. Korea). It is reported that even the use of VPN is now blocked.

I actually spent a lot of time reading aviation papers in Chinese language, and I known that the state of chinese aeronautical has advanced rapidly, because of ample scientific funding, and the huge number of new engineers and scientists that entered the fields, each year.

This is why I am confident that J-20 has been using a prototype of WS-15 from day one, has 3D TVC, and has at least 210kN of trust. And it is now using a production version of WS-15 on the LRIP J-20.

I am not confident that China has solved the mass production issues regarding WS-15, yet, because I know the long verification process, that could be completed only, after hundreds were built, and tens of thousands of flying hours were accumulated.

This has not happen yet.

Also from reading the Chinese technical papers, I know China is working on an engine, with a very high Thrust to Weight Ratio of 15-20, (WS-10 is 8, and WS-15 is 10-12), and various of other very high tech, state of the art, aeronautical projects.

Again, foreign journalists don't know them, unless they were first reported by Chinese journalists, which are generally not very technical in their reports. This usually happens only, because they have achieve some initial success, so they could celebrate.

"the PLA has already been very open about the jets capabilities and even showed a LRIP in zhuhai. "

This is quite true regarding J-20, compared to J-10, which not even a picture were leaked, until 2 regiments were in service.

Why such openness regarding J-20? I can only guess. One reason that recently came to my mind is that, openness about J-20 could be a diversionary tactic.

Design to divert attention away from another even more important H-20 project, the strategic stealth bomber.

Several engines with the core of WS-15, will be built, including one, with a large turbofan, that will be installed on H-20. This is why extreme secrecy on the performance and state of development of WS-15. I think.

China's Rocket force will deliver the initial blows. J-20 will be aerial assassins to clear the enemy AWACs and Oil tankers and Fighters. H-20 will deliver the knock out punch, to the enemy airports, ports and other military infrastructures. J-20 will be its long range, stealthy body guards.
 
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....

This is why I am confident that J-20 has been using a prototype of WS-15 from day one, has 3D TVC, and has at least 210kN of trust. And it is now using a production version of WS-15 on the LRIP J-20.

....

So You are at best CONFIDENT, which is not the same as it is proven !

Then please admit as I offered You as a compromise to accept and admit You have no prove, not a full-sized image, not a high-resolution video, not even an official document where is written in clear words ! Nothing but academic papers, internet reports, small and grainy stills and few second long video clips ... but not a single proof.

BY the way care to answer my last question on the last page?

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/chen...news-discussions.111471/page-599#post-9789817

You surely missed it.

Deino
 
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So You are at best CONFIDENT, which is not the same as it is proven !

Then please admit as I offered You as a compromise to accept and admit You have no prove, not a full-sized image, not a high-resolution video, not even an official document where is written in clear words ! Nothing but academic papers, internet reports, small and grainy stills and few second long video clips ... but not a single proof.

BY the way care to answer my last question on the last page?

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/chen...news-discussions.111471/page-599#post-9789817

You surely missed it.

Deino

"So You are at best CONFIDENT, which is not the same as it is proven !"


Exactly, I am not an insider, with insider information. I could only make educated guess.

I will get to answer your previous post. I just got up, not even had coffee yet.

upload_2017-8-22_8-35-27.png
 
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"So You are at best CONFIDENT, which is not the same as it is proven !"

Exactly, I am not an insider, with insider information. I could only make educated guess.

I will get to answer your previous post. I just got up, not even had coffee yet.

View attachment 420273


Thanks a lot for that open confession ! ... and take Your time. I hope You don't get my question wrong as an offence or sarcasm ...
 
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Vast amount of scientific research papers exist on the internet, including the Chinese language ones that are published only in China journals, but not in English international journals.

Those papers are not accessible to foreigners, because the language barrier. This included military related papers and aeronautical and aerospace papers. And they are especially not accessible to foreign journalists, and even foreign intelligence analysts, because of their highly technical nature, and the the language barrier. You need to know the Chinese technical terms to search, and the Chinese language ability and technical ability to read and understand them.

Our Mr. Deino, despite being a diligent researcher, is lacking in both.

The Chinese aviation research is quite open, but once classified, they are strictly off limit, just like any other state or military secrets. Chinese Internet censors are rigorous active. Any reports or leaks that they don't like are quickly deleted and the individual or website is severely punished.

Now, they have even learned the technique of spreading disinformations, so that the real and false informations are so conflicting, foreign intelligence agencies couldn't trust the real one they get from human intelligence, because they couldn't tell the real one from the false.

China has not been very open about its military. They only tell, what they want the world to know. China is still very secretive, but not like the former USSR, because of the Internet.

Instead of clam down on the Internet, or cut off connection from outside, China has cleverly used the Internet to its advantages, by building a National Chinese Internet Firewall at the early days of the Internet. It could monitor and block any outside websites, it didn't like. For example, Facebook, Google, Youtube . . . No other country has done that (probably except N. Korea). It is reported that even the use of VPN is now blocked.

I actually spent a lot of time reading aviation papers in Chinese language, and I known that the state of chinese aeronautical has advanced rapidly, because of ample scientific funding, and the huge number of new engineers and scientists that entered the fields, each year.

This is why I am confident that J-20 has been using a prototype of WS-15 from day one, has 3D TVC, and has at least 210kN of trust. And it is now using a production version of WS-15 on the LRIP J-20.

I am not confident that China has solved the mass production issues regarding WS-15, yet, because I know the long verification process, that could be completed only, after hundreds were built, and tens of thousands of flying hours were accumulated.

This has not happen yet.

Also from reading the Chinese technical papers, I know China is working on an engine, with a very high Thrust to Weight Ratio of 15-20, (WS-10 is 8, and WS-15 is 10-12), and various of other very high tech, state of the art, aeronautical projects.

Again, foreign journalists don't know them, unless they were first reported by Chinese journalists, which are generally not very technical in their reports. This usually happens only, because they have achieve some initial success, so they could celebrate.

"the PLA has already been very open about the jets capabilities and even showed a LRIP in zhuhai. "

This is quite true regarding J-20, compared to J-10, which not even a picture were leaked, until 2 regiments were in service.

Why such openness regarding J-20? I can only guess. One reason that recently came to my mind is that, openness about J-20 could be a diversionary tactic.

Design to divert attention away from another even more important H-20 project, the strategic stealth bomber.

Several engines with the core of WS-15, will be built, including one, with a large turbofan, that will be installed on H-20. This is why extreme secrecy on the performance and state of development of WS-15. I think.

China's Rocket force will deliver the initial blows. J-20 will be aerial assassins to clear the enemy AWACs and Oil tankers and Fighters. H-20 will deliver the knock out punch, to the enemy airports, ports and other military infrastructures. J-20 will be its long range, stealthy body guards.
Please stop your ridiculous straw man attacks on Deino. I cannot read Chinese either and have to rely on Bing translate to assist mean. As far as I know, Deino's sources are all Chinese and he spends extensive time translating for us. Regarding openness, China's transparency has come a long ways; the J-10 was only shown in Zhuhai 10 years later while a J-20 LRIP performed aerial maneuvers in front of a world audience. As for the WS-15, I've found nobody to back up your absurd claims on either Chinese or Western forums. Most agree that it has completed ground testing and is beginning high altitude tests with a thrust of over 165 kN. And please show me documentation on the alleged 3D thrust vectoring of the J-20. And given your so-called expertise on the J-20, you still believe that it is an interceptor/striker meant to take out AWACS and tankers. :omghaha: The J-20 is a heavy air-superiority platform designed for WVR and BVR combat; not interception or strikes. You would glean quite a bit of info if you looked on SDF or read Deino's articles.
 
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everyone has a point, and Asok's accessment on China's defense info outlet landscape is quite on the spot`meanwhile Deino's doubts and queries are quite rational with integrity, not like some of the members like gambit and the self-claimed Chinese and Mexican mix "j" ```

indeed there are loads of professional papers only in Chinese on internet, to native speakers like myself that still finding those papers are hard to crack``` therefore it is very limited to foreign enthusiasts to understand the real depth of our technological capabilities. I even had an ambition that to translate few, but ````````well

anyway, regarding J-20, there are few things that we dont have to discuss:
1: its a air-superiority fighter, without a well structured and written fly-control sftware, the plane would kill its own pilot
2: the engine is not WS-15``(there is not one country in the world will use testing engines on prototyps or testing planes, so does China)
3: the number of J-20 will be well over 300````

and the rests are all open for speculation :D
 
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everyone has a point, and Asok's accessment on China's defense info outlet landscape is quite on the spot`meanwhile Deino's doubts and queries are quite rational with integrity, not like some of the members like gambit and the self-claimed Chinese and Mexican mix "j" ```

indeed there are loads of professional papers only in Chinese on internet, to native speakers like myself that still finding those papers are hard to crack``` therefore it is very limited to foreign enthusiasts to understand the real depth of our technological capabilities. I even had an ambition that to translate few, but ````````well

anyway, regarding J-20, there are few things that we dont have to discuss:
1: its a air-superiority fighter, without a well structured and written fly-control sftware, the plane would kill its own pilot
2: the engine is not WS-15``(there is not one country in the world will use testing engines on prototyps or testing planes, so does China)
3: the number of J-20 will be well over 300````

and the rests are all open for speculation :D
Well said. Some Chinese fanbois still claim that the J-20 can be used to hit high-value targets (AWEC, Tankers), strike ground targets, carry anti-ship missile and still be able to have outstanding maneuverability. Unfortunately, if one cannot even assess its proper role, their analysis of the J-20 is unlikely to be credible.

IMHO, the number of J-20A's will probably not exceed 50-60 if the current engines are Russian (AL-31FM2). I doubt that China will likely order more Russian engines as its WS-10 program matures. As for the J-20B's, I feel that the PLA is going to order at least 400 in the medium term given the rising F-35 production.
 
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Well said. Some Chinese fanbois still claim that the J-20 can be used to hit high-value targets (AWEC, Tankers), strike ground targets, carry anti-ship missile and still be able to have outstanding maneuverability. Unfortunately, if one cannot even assess its proper role, their analysis of the J-20 is unlikely to be credible.

IMHO, the number of J-20A's will probably not exceed 50-60 if the current engines are Russian (AL-31FM2). I doubt that China will likely order more Russian engines as its WS-10 program matures. As for the J-20B's, I feel that the PLA is going to order at least 400 in the medium term given the rising F-35 production.
all open for speculation ```all open for speculation ``:lol:
 
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all open for speculation ```all open for speculation ``:lol:
If it is a "heavy air superiority fighter" -- in your own words -- then it probably cannot perform those functions very well. Those secondary functions have their own dedicated platforms.
 
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everyone has a point, and Asok's accessment on China's defense info outlet landscape is quite on the spot`meanwhile Deino's doubts and queries are quite rational with integrity, not like some of the members like gambit and the self-claimed Chinese and Mexican mix "j" ```

indeed there are loads of professional papers only in Chinese on internet, to native speakers like myself that still finding those papers are hard to crack``` therefore it is very limited to foreign enthusiasts to understand the real depth of our technological capabilities. I even had an ambition that to translate few, but ````````well

anyway, regarding J-20, there are few things that we dont have to discuss:
1: its a air-superiority fighter, without a well structured and written fly-control sftware, the plane would kill its own pilot
2: the engine is not WS-15``(there is not one country in the world will use testing engines on prototyps or testing planes, so does China)
3: the number of J-20 will be well over 300````

and the rests are all open for speculation :D
Agree Chinese technical papers are hard to understand and harder still to translate or express in English.
This debate over engines for the J-20 has gone on for too long.
Time to wait for more concrete information before continuing further discourse on just this part of J-20.
Hope everybody can take a rest on this subject.
Wonder why no more fabulous pictures from @grey boy 2
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Agree Chinese technical papers are hard to understand and harder still to translate or express in English.
This debate over engines for the J-20 has gone on for too long.
Time to wait for more concrete information before continuing further discourse on just this part of J-20.
Hope everybody can take a rest on this subject.
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But we all know that the WS-15 is progressing very smoothly and will be incorporated into the J-20 within the next year or two.
 
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But we all know that the WS-15 is progressing very smoothly and will be incorporated into the J-20 within the next year or two.

Production date is 2023 at the very earliest. Even the WS-20, which is far less complex than the WS-15, won't go into platform integration until 2018.
 
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