Chengdu J-20 5th Generation Aircraft News & Discussions

[Beast]

China: New Combat Aircraft J-20 Officially On Duty

By Editors, Special Forces - 2017-03-16

China's revolutionary fifth-generation combat aircraft takes off!

Is the J-20 superior to F-22 and F-35?

Is the USA's lead increasingly fading?

Does China now own the full-fledged stealth technology?

J-20 is officially serving the Chinese Air Force

China's new 5th generation J-20 combat aircraft has officially started its service.

The Chinese military confirmed this commissioning of the modern fighter jet last week.

The J-20 Fighter is supposed to bring China on par with America's F-22 and F-35.

Most experts doubt, however, that this will really be the case.

If there is really an open conflict with Taiwan or the USA, the new J-20 class can certainly claim against classic F-16 in certain circumstances (weather / radar).

The fact that the J-20 can actually be against the F-22 or even F-35, is hitherto rather doubted.

How strong is the Chinese J-20 really?

The American F-22 and F-35 are a complete system, integrated into radar capacities, synchronized networks, artificial intelligence, and stealth capabilities.

The question as to whether the Chinese new combat aircraft can actually stand up to the advanced systems of the USAF is therefore somewhat more complex than simply a "faster, stronger, wider".

The J-20 is certainly a significant step for the Chinese Air Force. Globally, the aircraft is regarded as a capable model of the 5th generation.

The Chinese government, however, is very much concerned about the actual performance of its new development.

Apart from some flight demonstrations, basic details of the aircraft class and euphoric press releases, there is little objective information on the actual capabilities of the fighter jet.

The stealth skills, for example, make the consensus of the Western experts more critical.

The J-20 certainly has basic stealth technology, but not at the level of American models.

The radar of the Chinese is not yet as developed as the US.

Therefore, the model has very secure "stealth" characteristics, but should not be a pure stealth fighter.

Is the USA's lead waning more and more?

Moreover, quite a few experts are surprised at the extreme development of the J-20 in a very short time.

Theoretically it is quite possible that China catches up so quickly.

However, whether it is really realistic that a system of such complexity, similar to the F-22 and F-35, is completed in a short period of time and that the official statements on the J-20 actually correspond to fully technical reality is another question.

So far there are 5 first models of the J-20, which are relatively "operational".

Production is slow and laborious for Chinese manufacturers.

Accordingly, it will take some time to know more about the aircraft and its actual abilities will be objectively better assessed.

In the US, however, the dwindling distance between the US military and the Chinese is seen with growing concern.

The fast commissioning of the J-20 will not improve these concerns.


From the Special Forces, a German language publication owned by the Black Harp Media, specializing in the world strategy military "Special Forces News".

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An "interesting mixing" of some faith or perceptive matters with some degrees of objectivity (just peruse the article to read the implied message between the lines)... however, as long as China has not decided to divulge in totality or expose anything spectacular I am afraid that the thick cloud of doubt will linger around for many years to come.

The other question remains, will China "care" to clear all these "clouds of doubt" in particular within the circles of the Western experts and skeptics or how far it agrees to reveal, or does such clearance really serves its objective? For there's no export urgency to come into this equation.

It's of anyone's guess I think and once again, the unfolding time is the most accurate analyst!

Dont worry, the western always like to write article to do self comforting to escape from reality.

But FC-31 v2 need to reveal its spec becos it is an export product. From the level of FC-31, we can know at least the basic level of where J-20 stands. But keep in mind, FC-31 is an export product. So J-20 might be 20-30percent more capable than it.

I think he is referring to engine which is not stealth oriented

No, maybe you are trying to be sarcastic.

 

[j20blackdragon]

IMO a conclusion to say what is "very large" or "larger than ..." and especially in comparison "larger to what" can only be done by an exact measurment of the specific intakes. As such to say the J-20 has a "huge" intake and to conclude it therefore must be an engine in the thrust-class of the F135 is similar impossible to Asok's claim it is a "prolonged, sustained climb and therefore it must have a +210kN thrust engine"!

I don't need to be a supercomputer or have exact measurements to tell the difference between big intake and small intake.

 

[j20blackdragon]

 

[Deino]

I don't need to be a supercomputer or have exact measurements to tell the difference between big intake and small intake.

Come on ... and the Su-27/J-11 has a small intake while the Su-35 has a larger one ... and what's about that bump !??

I really don't understand this "I have the feeling" point of view. Unless we don't have the true area and the specific data on airflow/volume all these estimations are pure guesswork.
It would be as ridiculous as estimating engine thrust from a composed gif or 10seconds video clip, estimating RCS by eyeballing and so on.

Deino

 

[Asoka]

IMO a conclusion to say what is "very large" or "larger than ..." and especially in comparison "larger to what" can only be done by an exact measurment of the specific intakes. As such to say the J-20 has a "huge" intake and to conclude it therefore must be an engine in the thrust-class of the F135 is similar impossible to Asok's claim it is a "prolonged, sustained climb and therefore it must have a +210kN thrust engine"!

"Asok's claim it is a "prolonged, sustained climb and therefore it must have a +210kN thrust engine"!

Please quote me more accurately, Mr. Deino, or I might think you are trying to deliberately misquote me to discredit me.

I have said repeatedly that J-20 has demonstrated the ability to perform a prolonged, sustained vertical climb, without the use of the afterburner, therefore it's Dry Thrust alone, must be greater than it's flying weight. From there, I have estimated its total thrust to be +210kn (Total Thrust = Dry Thrust/0.6), based on a guess of its flying weight to be 26 tons (22 tons + 4 tons fuel)

 

[jkroo]

Come on ... and the Su-27/J-11 has a small intake while the Su-35 has a larger one ... and what's about that bump !??

I really don't understand this "I have the feeling" point of view. Unless we don't have the true area and the specific data on airflow/volume all these estimations are pure guesswork.
It would be as ridiculous as estimating engine thrust from a composed gif or 10seconds video clip, estimating RCS by eyeballing and so on.

Deino

To admit, you became so illogical by posting such kind of words.
Aren't your point views guesswork too?
Don't you know your words also fit your claim perfectly? LOL
Don't be that rude. No one here can provide exact data. Please answer Asok's question directly with your logical guesswork.

I have said repeatedly that J-20 has demonstrated the ability to perform a prolonged, sustained vertical climb, without the use of the afterburner, therefore it's Dry Thrust alone, must be greater than it's flying weight.

 

[j20blackdragon]

Come on ... and the Su-27/J-11 has a small intake while the Su-35 has a larger one ... and what's about that bump !??

I really don't understand this "I have the feeling" point of view. Unless we don't have the true area and the specific data on airflow/volume all these estimations are pure guesswork.
It would be as ridiculous as estimating engine thrust from a composed gif or 10seconds video clip, estimating RCS by eyeballing and so on.

Deino

Post a picture of the Su-27 and Su-35 with someone standing next to the intakes so I can establish scale.

No one is asking you to estimate thrust and RCS from pictures. I'm asking you to be able to tell the difference between a big hole and a small hole.

I think everyone can agree that the J-10A is using the AL-31FN and that the intake is optimized to deliver sufficient airflow for the engine.

But how is it possible that the much larger intakes on the J-20 are also optimized for the same AL-31?

I already posted intake pictures of the F-22 and F-16 above. Take a look at the size difference between 5th gen and 4th gen intakes. It's obvious.

 

[Deino]

"Asok's claim it is a "prolonged, sustained climb and therefore it must have a +210kN thrust engine"!

Please quote me more accurately, Mr. Deino, or I might think you are deliberately misquote me.

I have said repeatedly that J-20 has demonstrated the ability to perform a prolonged, sustained vertical climb, without the use of the afterburner, therefore it's Dry Thrust alone, must be greater than it's flying weight. From there, I have estimated its total thrust to be +210kn, based on a guess of its flying weight to be 26 tons (22 tons + 4 tons fuel)

Pardon, if I indeed misquoted You but then it would be even more strange since You are claiming a lower overall thrust than me. To admit I'm confused now.

Total thrust of +210kn divided to 2 engines, would correspond to +105kN ... but what's then so special of this engine ?? The F135 delivers about 125 kN in intermediate thrust, the 117S delivers already about 86.3 kN dry and the T-50's 117 delivers 93.1 kN (21,000 lbf) of dry thrust.

IMO Your +105 is still a bit on the high side, but at least it is much more realistically than what I misread ... I really thought You were suggesting a maximum thrust of 210 kN right now for each engine; SORRY for that.

Deino

Post a picture of the Su-27 and Su-35 with someone standing next to the intakes so I can establish scale.
No one is asking you to estimate thrust and RCS from pictures. I'm asking you to be able to tell the difference between a big hole and a small hole.
I think everyone can agree that the J-10A is using the AL-31FN and that the intake is optimized to deliver sufficient airflow for the engine.
But how is it possible that the much larger intakes on the J-20 are also optimized for the same AL-31?
I already posted intake pictures of the F-22 and F-16 above. Take a look at the size difference between 5th gen and 4th gen intakes. It's obvious.

In general I agree with You and it is surely a good starting point, but the overall from section/area of the J-20's intake is not valid since You need to subtract the frontal-area of the bump too, which in the end results in a much smaller - and here I admit I cannot provide a calculation - overall area than it might look like.

My point is simply that here are a few posters - not You ! - that are indeed claim to know the RSC and engine thrust by eyeballing.

 

[Asoka]

Pardon, if I indeed misquoted You but then it would be even more strange since You are claiming a lower overall thrust than me. To admit I'm confused now.

Total thrust of +210kn divided to 2 engines, would correspond to +105kN ... but what's then so special of this engine ?? The F135 delivers about 125 kN in intermediate thrust, the 117S delivers already about 86.3 kN dry and the T-50's 117 delivers 93.1 kN (21,000 lbf) of dry thrust.

IMO Your +105 is still a bit on the high side, but at least it is much more realistically than what I misread ... I really thought You were suggesting a maximum thrust of 210 kN right now for each engine; SORRY for that.

Deino




In general I agree with You and it is surely a good starting point, but the overall from section/area of the J-20's intake is not valid since You need to subtract the frontal-area of the bump too, which in the end results in a much smaller - and here I admit I cannot provide a calculation - overall area than it might look like.

My point is simply that here are a few posters - not You ! - that are indeed claim to know the RSC and engine thrust by eyeballing.

It's +210kN total thrust or wet thrust per engine. Sorry, that wasn't clear. I am glad that you are doing some simple calculations. It's not too hard, isn't it?

 

[j20blackdragon]

In general I agree with You and it is surely a good starting point, but the overall from section/area of the J-20's intake is not valid since You need to subtract the frontal-area of the bump too, which in the end results in a much smaller - and here I admit I cannot provide a calculation - overall area than it might look like.

You don't need exact measurements. Just form a mental image of an average size man crawling through one of the intakes of the J-20. I posted plenty of pictures above of people standing next to intakes for a reason. Stop feigning ignorance. It's not that hard to tell the difference between a big hole and a small hole.

 

[52051]

To All, dont waste my time on this:

Chinese have invented smart ways for plasma stealth generator:

(1)First of all, J-20 dont need a fully covered ionized surface, since it is self a stealth design already, they only need plasma generator to cover critical parts.

(2)Secondly, as far back as in 2005, China's Dalian Martime University's state key lab of plasma tech have already make minized plasma generator through means of specially designed plasma generator with easily ionized very high pressure gas in a small container.

They have actually made blade-size plasma generator/container for aircrafts, offer three types with various dimensions:
(1) 0.15cm*4cm*5cm
(2) 0.15cm*4cm*10cm
(3) 0.15cm*4cm*20cm
Such devices are designed to be used as front attachment to aircraft's critical area, and for a 0.15cm*4cm*20cm plasma generating blade, in 2005, they can make it consume only 100W energy to power 10L high pressure easily-to-be ionized gas, and within 4GHz-14GHz radar wave, it can reduce its radar response signal by 30dB.

And the aircraft can use fine-grain level control to control various parts of such plasma containers's power states.

Above is directly from the 2005 research paper of this state key lab:

大连海事大学环境工程研究所下属的高气压强电离放电辽宁省重点实验室，如今研制的等离子体产生器件是一种薄片式器件．外型尺寸为：厚0.15cm．宽 4cm，长K5cm，10cm，20cm三种规格，根据要求选取．它可贴附在电磁波强散射部位或进气壁上。它具有如下特点：

(1)折合电场强度高，电子浓度高(在1015/cm3～10l6/cm3之间，而用于隐身技术的临界电子浓度在1012/cm3个量级)；

(2)外型尺寸为0.15cm×4cm×20cm的器件放电消耗能量仅为100W，能产生10L等离子体，而其自身质量仅为0.1kg。在4GHZ～14GHz，频率范围可使飞机的RCS值衰减30dB．减少

到原来的0.1%：

(3)强电离放电等离子体产生器件外表面自身也具有隐身性能。

The paper: http://www.cnki.com.cn/Article/CJFDTotal-XDFJ200503006.htm

There are also countless papers in Chinese, describe such ideas, for instance:
This paper describe use small plasma generating blade-like attachment to reduce stealth fighter's RCS:

http://www.cnki.com.cn/Article/CJFDTOTAL-HKXB200401011.htm

This article, also from Dalian Martine University's plasm tech lab, desribe how they get this high pressure ionized gas to make minimized plasma stealth attachment that is capable of installed on combat aircrafts:

http://www.cnki.com.cn/Article/CJFDTOTAL-HJBY200503011.htm

This is this lab's official describation from their university website:

http://www.dlmu.edu.cn/html/2013/sbjzdsys_0702/187.html

Note that this merely represent China's plasma stealth tech level at a disclassified level in 2005 (actually that level of tech is considered as disclassified even in 2005, thats why they are allowed to publish a research paper to give tech details about their minimized plasma generator device).

How can J-20 detect enemy target in presence of plasma generators because plasma absorb all electromagnetic waves, tell me please how can J-20 find its targets in the presence of plasma generator specially with EOTS,so J-20 is not equipped with PLASMA SH!T, you live in your fairy world, wet dream and wishful thinking , go kid go play your toys this place is not for yours


He is acting like he is in the development team of J-20

Have you even read?

If you know nothing and cannot read, its better for you to keep silence instead of open your mouth to remove all doubts.

I just dont know why people here considered China's 2005 era plasma stealth tech as sci-fi, then god-forbidden if they manage to know what my classmates/friends and their colleages are doing now

In terms of engine tech China sure lag behind the west in general, actually the US in particular, but thats because this special area of industry involves tens of years experiences and the west have a head start for about decades if not centuries.

For any new tech, the US dont have such head start, China can surpass then leave them in the dust easily.

So yes, truth hurts

 

[Ultima Thule]

Dont worry, the western always like to write article to do self comforting to escape from reality.

But FC-31 v2 need to reveal its spec becos it is an export product. From the level of FC-31, we can know at least the basic level of where J-20 stands. But keep in mind, FC-31 is an export product. So J-20 might be 20-30percent more capable than it.


No, maybe you are trying to be sarcastic.

No sir, i am not trying to be sarcastic or something, currently J-20 interim engine is non stealthy, i don't know about WS-15 that it will have stealth nozzle or not, get real sir

Have you even read?

If you know nothing and cannot read, its better for you to keep silence instead of open your mouth to remove all doubts.

I just dont know why people here considered China's 2005 era plasma stealth tech as sci-fi, then I what my classmates/friends are doing must make them crazy

Please explain this to me kid "How can J-20 detect enemy target in presence of plasma generators because plasma absorb all electromagnetic waves, tell me please how can J-20 find its targets in the presence of plasma generator specially with EOTS" you silly boy US and Russia did research on this subject for almost two decades with no avail and you started plasma research in 2005 and in 2017 you are successful and you show us just a research paper where its tell those plasma generator is or will be on the J-20 just in your wet dream and wishful thinking get real kid

For any new tech, the US dont have such head start, China can surpass then leave them in the dust easily.

So yes, truth hurts

And US will stuck its technology for China in future, what a logic you have keep carrying your wishful thinking and wet dream lol

 

[52051]

Please explain this to me kid "How can J-20 detect enemy target in presence of plasma generators because plasma absorb all electromagnetic waves, tell me please how can J-20 find its targets in the presence of plasma generator specially with EOTS" you silly boy US and Russia did research on this subject for almost two decades with no avail and you started plasma research in 2005 and in 2017 you are successful and you show us just a research paper where its tell those plasma generator is or will be on the J-20 just in your wet dream and wishful thinking get real kid

Dont waste my time by repeating very stupid questions, ok, I make it even simpler that hopeful even a XXX like you can understand:

China's minimized plasma generator dont need to generate a full cover for J-20 since J-20 itself is stealth design they only need to generate plasma which cover speical area of the J-20, in J-20's case, around their white-band covered area.

 

[52051]

Show you source kid you have nothing to prove you live in your wishful thinking and wet dream kid do research before you post too much wishful thinking and wet dreaming is bad for your health kid

I showed, but since you may have a simpler mind so you just simply cannot understand that or connect the dots, so again, I do it for simple-minded such as you :

On J-20's plasma stealth:

http://mil.news.sina.com.cn/2014-04-17/0824774434.html

So again, throw baseless accusation towards me truly show what a simple mind you are.

And it is you who are wet-dreaming too much, now I give you a intelligent challenge: try stop wasting my time with repetitive dumb questions, can you?

Btw, the next generation US stealth tech is made in China
http://bbs.tiexue.net/post_12377354_1.html

It just show us the pathetic state of the US stealth tech now comparing to that of China

 

[Deino]

It's +210kN total thrust or wet thrust per engine. Sorry, that wasn't clear. I am glad that you are doing some simple calculations. It's not too hard, isn't it?

Sorry, but that's exactly what I said You were claiming ... so why did You then say I misquoted You ???

Care to tell again what's Your calculation: 210kN for both engines in dry thrust or 210kN for each engine in wet (aka maximum AB) thrust ???

The first one would be realistic, the second is pure phantasy ! ... what You are suggesting would be an engine close to the Russian NK-25 or NK-32.